Talmage’s view on progression between kingdoms

[ProphetShiloh]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

So people who are born into bad experiences deserve it because of past lives?

Is there any difference between your position and multiple mortal probations?

When we are immortalized, we indeed carry our baggage with us that must be worked out in due time.

Being "saved" simply means something akin to saving a file to a storage medium.

The Book of Mormon makes it clear that the resurrection does not restore good for evil.

I think there is a fair amount of crossover between what I have learned through revelation and the concept some call MMP.  I haven't actually gone into details as to what the proponents of MMP are trying to say so I won't go into any more detail than that.  I suspect they will still have missing pieces if they do not have the master blueprint of creation from the book sealed with seven seals to work with.

Edited November 14, 2021 by ProphetShiloh

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

What should I have said to convey that idea?  "Current LDS theology may not be the highest level of truth on the subject"? 

Well the nicest Sunday School way to answer it would have been "But Heavenly Father has not yet seen fit to reveal everything we will know in the Celestial Kingdom."

Edited November 15, 2021 by mfbukowski

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well the nicest Sunday School way to answer it would have been "But Heavenly Father has not yet seen fit to reveal everything we will know in the Celestial Kingdom."

Here's an example literally from Sunday School (a couple of weeks ago) where President Nelson shares a message his father received from his deceased grandfather some decades before D&C 138 was received by President Joseph F. Smith. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2017-02-1030-a-visit-from-father?lang=eng

So it is possible to receive advanced knowledge before the Lord reveals it through His Prophet, but "Surely the Lord God will do nothing" prior to that. The thing is, for what purpose, and for what scope, does the recipient share this knowledge without the keys of presidency behind him for the Lord to do anything with it? The Lord will not give such advanced knowledge to anyone who doesn't respect their limits and limitations, though they can certainly subsequently disappoint Him and try to do something they ought not, or end up altering the original information.

[JustAnAustralian]

4 hours ago, ProphetShiloh said:

Being "saved" simply means something akin to saving a file to a storage medium.

Sounds like the Dr Who episode "Forest of the Dead"

[Calm]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

Adam is a distinct being, but he is a body of flesh and bone.  This means that he is a plurality of enlightened intelligences

So each of us are actually multiple beings?
 

 Or are you saying Adam is the symbol name for the community of individual human beings, each of us being one being?

[Calm]

20 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

 

Not sure how symbolism fits in, but this passage comes to mind:

"you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, FROM EXALTATION TO EXALTATION, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead..." (King Follet sermon, emphasis Donald's)

This is not what I learned in Sunday School (multiple exaltations preceding the resurrection), but I'm inclined to side with Joseph Smith over whoever wrote the Sunday School manual. 

 

Given the use of “grace” (“a divinely given talent or blessing”)in the previous phrase, an individual exaltation appears to mean to me all those abilities and blessings that together result in the exalted state.  Thus one is exalted when one perfects one godly ability, again exalted when perfecting another…but I don’t see a need to live another life to perfect each attribute…especially since I believe “becoming one” likely gives us full access to others’ experiences so it becomes as if we lived that life and learned what they learned without actually doing so.  Living one life ourselves gives us a foundation to build on, then we can use  the Atonement to fill in the gaps so to speak by making connections through Christ who comprehends all of it.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Calm

[ProphetShiloh]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

So each of us are actually multiple beings?
Or are you saying Adam is the symbol name for the community of individual human beings, each of us being one being?

Your question reflects what happens when you try and mix the paradigms.

The figure spoken of as Adam in holy writ is a symbol that represents the sovereign body of the Priesthood, which is composed of a plurality of members.

See Ephesians 5:30 for a clear description of what a flesh-and-bone body is.

[Olmec Donald]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe “becoming one” likely gives us full access to others’ experiences so it becomes as if we lived that life and learned what they learned without actually doing so.

Wow.  This is pretty much what I believe too, but I didn't expect to find it here.

At the risk of careening off the rails I think we already are one, but we can't see that from here. 

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

the "not necessary for us to know for our salvation" category. 

More like “important to not know to avoid despair” category.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, ProphetShiloh said:

When we are immortalized, we indeed carry our baggage with us that must be worked out in due time.

But carrying baggage doesn’t mean those in hard circumstances were bad actors in their previous lives.  They could have been fantastic people, but have a gap in their education.

Is the above a possibility in your construction of existence or are people put in suffering situations because of having to pay the debt of their poor acts or because they didn’t do anything to be rewarded for…like a lazy student might be held back a grade or a student that is disruptive and destructive  is placed in a classroom that is stripped of anything breakable or not relevant to the limited topic they are being taught, that has no comfort, gets no recess, has to eat cold pork and beans from a can for lunch, etc.

IOW, can you look at someone in the here and now and be able to judge from the life situation that in their previous resurrection, they were horrible to others or that they were kind and generous, etc.

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Olmec Donald said:

At the risk of careening off the rails I think we already are one, but we can't see that from here. 

The veil…we have been engaging with each other for a past eternity…our understanding of each other must be pretty deep.  But do we use that understanding to support each other or to manipulate?  Do we approach the universe as a shared experience to increase the overall shared light or as ourselves at the center, with all others contributing for our glory with the center becoming brighter, making the rest darker, drained.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Calm

[Olmec Donald]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

More like “important to not know to avoid despair” category.

I remember having a conversation with my LDS mother back when reincarnation being "the lesser resurrection, into the telestial world" was my main paradigm on the subject, and Mom said, "ugh, reincarnation sounds like Hell."

Precisely!

However as you can probably infer from my preceding post in this thread, I've since moved on to a different paradigm, and thus far I don't think it fuels despair. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Olmec Donald said:

thus far I don't think it fuels despair. 

Practically speaking, if we don’t remember what difference would it make?  As long as we aren’t penalized for incorrect thinking.

[mfbukowski]

On 11/14/2021 at 1:32 PM, ProphetShiloh said:

Fully penetrating the Adamic language has one learn that there is a synergistic relationship between God and humanity.  The two cannot exist without the other.  They are one.  Put another way, God is the collective intelligence/consciousness of the heirs of salvation of humanity.

Among humanity are intelligences of varying degrees who have been enlarged by being quickened spiritually.  Once a human being receives the intelligence of God, they become a part of the body of God.  They become an extension of the consciousness of God.

This appears to deny the physical personhood of the Father.

On the other hand, a common trend in secular thinking asks whether or not God created Man or Man created God.

My usual answer to that is "yes".

Both statements work from different points of view.

[Maidservant]

On 8/19/2021 at 12:18 PM, CV75 said:

I think the principles of learning the gospel in the spirit world before the resurrection, and progressing between kingdoms after the resurrection, are basically the same in how they depend on the point of "willingness". If you are not willing to act when the opportunity presents, you erode your willingness and thus your ability to act by grace. This is why the sacrament prayer is so important, where "willing" is a key operative word for the bread, which is taken first (the body of Christ; unconditional resurrection), but not for the water (the blood of Christ; conditional exaltation, which comes later).

I love this interpretation. But I do think there are many things to be found in the symbolism of the sacrament. The one I see the most is that "partaking of the bread" is coming to earth.

On 8/19/2021 at 4:25 PM, JLHPROF said:

A Terrestrial being that continued to learn and progress would unavoidably become a Celestial being eventually OR the Terrestrial environment would be forced to admit new truth beyond the Terrestrial level.

One carries their kingdom with them. What you have prepared your body to be is true at whatever point you arrive there. We were once taught, for example, that our homes could be heaven. These "levels" are not places as much as they are US . . . or not.

On 8/27/2021 at 9:11 AM, telnetd said:

How do you understand this passage:

"For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, 
behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.  
And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, 
therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your 
repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us 
to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in 
this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no 
labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, 
that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; 
for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye 
go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body 
in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of 
your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the 
spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of 
the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil 
hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked"

Just because one played a basketball game and got a final score doesn't mean that one never plays another basketball ever again.

And this scripture is less about destiny and more about the correlation between what you choose becomes who you are . . . a repeat of what I said above.

======================================

And to the main question . . .

We are now in the process of progressing from one 'kingdom' to another as is made plain in the temple and in the gospel entire; and are being ministered to by those from higher realms. So . . . yes?

[mfbukowski]

On 8/19/2021 at 11:18 AM, CV75 said:

I think the principles of learning the gospel in the spirit world before the resurrection, and progressing between kingdoms after the resurrection, are basically the same in how they depend on the point of "willingness". If you are not willing to act when the opportunity presents, you erode your willingness and thus your ability to act by grace. This is why the sacrament prayer is so important, where "willing" is a key operative word for the bread, which is taken first (the body of Christ; unconditional resurrection), but not for the water (the blood of Christ; conditional exaltation, which comes later).

I also notce that the elements are blessed and sanctified (made holy) "to the souls of all those who partake of it".

It is not blessed or made holy to those who do NOT partake of it.   It is only effective for believers.  You make it blessed and sanctified by your action and willingness to show up and believe it is blessed and sanctified.   Its effectiveness is up to you.

[Tacenda]

On 11/14/2021 at 10:08 PM, Olmec Donald said:

I remember having a conversation with my LDS mother back when reincarnation being "the lesser resurrection, into the telestial world" was my main paradigm on the subject, and Mom said, "ugh, reincarnation sounds like Hell."

Precisely!

However as you can probably infer from my preceding post in this thread, I've since moved on to a different paradigm, and thus far I don't think it fuels despair. 

I wonder if our souls have a choice whether they want to live on earth again, like a second, third or ? time. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/well/family/sisters-past-life.html

Edited December 2, 2021 by Tacenda

[Olmec Donald]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if our souls have a choice whether they want to live on earth again, like a second, third or ? time. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/30/well/family/sisters-past-life.html

Interesting article, thanks for the link.

My current opinion is that we probably experience multiple school-like environments if we so choose, with earth perhaps being a "school of relationships".   As for multiple mortal lives I think that's possible, BUT I am not sure the concept of reincarnation is necessarily a particularly beneficial one.   I've seen people get caught up in ego-tripping over who they supposedly "were". 

I have a memory of what seems to be a past life.  Out of curiosity I asked an open-ended question of someone who would have known this person IF they had actually existed.  The person I asked seemed to know exactly who I was referring to and their description was a pretty close match to my "memory".  I hadn't thought about this in a long time; it's weird now because as I type this I "remember" what it "feels like" to be that person.  Does this change anything?  Well it might shift my perspective a little, but my job is still to work on the life I'm living right now.  

Another possibility is that, in the next life, we might "download" our earth-life experiences to others, perhaps for their benefit; there are near-death experience accounts which include something like this.  So maybe my "memory" is a download from someone who lived before me, who shared their experience with me.   Does this change anything?  Again maybe there's some potential shift in my perspective, but the task at hand (working on this life) is unchanged.  A shift in perspective can be helpful but it doesn't "do the work" for us.

Here is a link to a near-death experience account in which the person describes "downloading" to a gathering of individuals, from about 6:10 to about 8:45:

https://youtu.be/s8lQs1MccoU?t=370

Edited December 2, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

I have a memory of what seems to be a past life.  Out of curiosity I asked an open-ended question of someone who would have known this person IF they had actually existed.  The person I asked seemed to know exactly who I was referring to and their description was a pretty close match to my "memory".  I hadn't thought about this in a long time; it's weird now because as I type this I "remember" what it "feels like" to be that person.  Does this change anything?  Well it might shift my perspective a little, but my job is still to work on the life I'm living right now.  

Speculation alert:  I think before we are born we are likely watching earth, the more interesting bits possibly or watching our extended family develop until it’s time for us to join them…the ultimate reality show.  I see no reason curiosity isn’t a pre-existent attribute.  Memories of past lives might actually be a result of peeking in on another’s life and maybe even connecting with them somehow.

[CV75]

12 hours ago, Maidservant said:

I love this interpretation. But I do think there are many things to be found in the symbolism of the sacrament. The one I see the most is that "partaking of the bread" is coming to earth.

One carries their kingdom with them. What you have prepared your body to be is true at whatever point you arrive there. We were once taught, for example, that our homes could be heaven. These "levels" are not places as much as they are US . . . or not.

Just because one played a basketball game and got a final score doesn't mean that one never plays another basketball ever again.

And this scripture is less about destiny and more about the correlation between what you choose becomes who you are . . . a repeat of what I said above.

======================================

And to the main question . . .

We are now in the process of progressing from one 'kingdom' to another as is made plain in the temple and in the gospel entire; and are being ministered to by those from higher realms. So . . . yes?

Yes, we are now in the process of progressing from one 'kingdom' to another as is made plain in the temple and in the gospel entire; and are being ministered to by those from higher realms, and I will add from Abraham 3, while in this "second estate", the state of probation, which comes to an end. Glory gets added in this life, according to our faithfulness. This life includes the post-mortal. pre-resurrection estate where we are also ministered to by those of a higher glory. Keeping this second estate means keeping the probation, which fixes that glory forever and ever. Then we will continue to be ministered to by those from higher realms per D&C 76.