Talmage’s view on progression between kingdoms

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

don't think this Talmage-by way of Zimmer account is the whole story. 

So Talmage agrees with the no progression belief that you think would be held by most, but that is contrary to what really happened because most would believe in no progression. 
 

I don’t think your reasoning is that solid. 
 

I don’t think anyone is claiming it is the whole story. 

Edited August 19, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

Why would a committee that didn’t believe it was a possibility not pressure a non apostle to change his comment in the book, but later apostles would pressure a fellow apostle to change it?

Power dynamics Rongo is suggesting seems off. 
 

Who is more likely to get pressure to change…a nonapostle whose book has to go through review vs an apostle who can skip the review process?

Edited August 19, 2021 by Calm

[rongo]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

So Talmage agrees with the no progression belief that you think would be held by most, but that is contrary to what really happened because most would believe in no progression. 

I don’t think your reasoning is that solid. 

According to Spackman's treatment of the Zimmer account:

1) Talmage wrote in the 1st edition (I own one myself, and have shown this passage to people):

"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God."

2) Spackman quotes Zimmer: "I took the liberty of asking him why he had changed his opinion on this subject. He smiled and said (in substance:) “I did not change my opinion; I always thought advancement from one glory to another to be impossible; but, you see, when I had prepared the manuscript for the first English edition— wherein I stated my belief in this impossibility— I had to submit the manuscript to a committee of the Twelve, and the majority of that committee was of a different opinion and they asked me to change it, which of course, I did. Later, in 1924, when I revised and rewrote the book for the twelfth edition, I was a member of the Quorum and had not to submit my manuscript to a committee and so I changed it back to the original version of some 24 years ago!”

3)Thus, Talmage never believed this, had originally written it stating this, but it was overturned and remanded by "the majority view of the committee." (Spackman)

4) The changes go from 

"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade [WITHIN EACH OF THE SPECIFIED KINGDOMS] will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God" [replacing "within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom"].

to

"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for; and thus [THOUGH AS TO POSSIBLE PROGRESS FROM ONE KINGDOM TO ANOTHER THE SCRIPTURES MAKE NO POSITIVE AFFIRMATION. ETERNAL ADVANCEMENT ALONG DIFFERENT LINES IS CONCEIVABLE] we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God."

[striking "from grade to grade" and "But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress"]

5) I don't doubt that Talmage said what he said to Zimmer, or that Zimmer's account is accurate. But, I can't reconcile myself this account with that particular committee, its makeup (especially the outsized influence of Joseph Fielding Smith), and what Talmage purports its majority decision to have been (viz., demanding language supportive of advancement between kingdoms). 

5a) Especially given their detailed comments rejecting or insisting on things with B.H. Roberts' manuscript of "The Truth, the Way, the Life" (which I also own and have taken detailed notes on). Their purported orientation in the Talmage/Zimmer account and their written stance in other similar cases don't appear to me to be reconcilable or the same people. 

I can't see Joseph Fielding Smith EVER permitting the 1st edition language to have appeared, no matter what the "majority decision" of the committee was.  

6) A couple of minor side issues: not to hammer at it too roughly, but Talmage's claim in the Zimmer account was that he "always" believed advancement between kingdoms is an "impossibility" --- and that the eventual language "changed it back to the original version of some 24 years ago!" Yet, that version still leaves open the possibility that "eternal advancement along different lines is conceivable." Talmage didn't lay out what those "different lines" (different from eternal advancement) might be, but this doesn't seem to me to revert back to what he insisted was his "original" view.

6a) I don't think that Talmage's representation that once a man is an apostle, he can write whatever he wants, but if not, then he's beholden to the committee is accurate. These committees are high-handed and have their way, and such strong personalities as we've had through the years aren't going to let things go that they insist are false, wrong, or harmful, even if it is an brother apostle who is publishing it (through the Church). Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is another thing that doesn't sit right with me. Talmage makes it sound like he originally strongly believed one thing, wrote otherwise because of a majority view of the committee, and then gradually introduced changes approximating his ostensible original view over 24 years once he was an apostle and wasn't subject to the committee. 

[rongo]

24 minutes ago, Calm said:

Who is more likely to get pressure to change…a nonapostle whose book has to go through review vs an apostle who can skip the review process. 

CFR that an apostle can skip the review process.

Not a real CFR --- I don't think it's knowable or provable either way, but I think even apostles have always had to have the Church's blessing. 

Well, at least since Correlation.  

[rongo]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

6a) I don't think that Talmage's representation that once a man is an apostle, he can write whatever he wants, but if not, then he's beholden to the committee is accurate. These committees are high-handed and have their way, and such strong personalities as we've had through the years aren't going to let things go that they insist are false, wrong, or harmful, even if it is an brother apostle who is publishing it (through the Church). Maybe I'm wrong about this, but this is another thing that doesn't sit right with me. Talmage makes it sound like he originally strongly believed one thing, wrote otherwise because of a majority view of the committee, and then gradually introduced changes approximating his ostensible original view over 24 years once he was an apostle and wasn't subject to the committee. 

One could point to Mormon Doctrine being published unchanged, despite the strong insistence of the McKay/Romney committee. But, here again we have the strong, outsized influence of . . . Joseph Fielding Smith (McConkie's father-in-law). 

[bOObOO]

32 minutes ago, rongo said:

I can't see Joseph Fielding Smith EVER permitting the 1st edition language to have appeared, no matter what the "majority decision" of the committee was.  

And yet it was printed, as your copy of the book shows.  So how do you think that happened?  How do you think it got printed if he did not agree with it and somehow allow it to be printed anyway?

 

Edited August 19, 2021 by bOObOO

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, rongo said:

Especially given their detailed comments rejecting or insisting on things with B.H. Roberts' manuscript of "The Truth, the Way, the Life" (which I also own and have taken detailed notes on). Their purported orientation in the Talmage/Zimmer account and their written stance in other similar cases don't appear to me to be reconcilable or the same people. 

You don’t know if it was the same people on the committee, do you?

[Calm]

44 minutes ago, rongo said:

CFR that an apostle can skip the review process.

Not a real CFR --- I don't think it's knowable or provable either way, but I think even apostles have always had to have the Church's blessing. 

Well, at least since Correlation.  

Quote

Later, in 1924, when I revised and rewrote the book for the twelfth edition, I was a member of the Quorum and had not to submit my manuscript to a committee and so I changed it back to the original version of some 24 years ago!”

Talmage reports it himself. 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, rongo said:

but it was overturned and remanded by "the majority view of the committee."

Talmage says he was asked to change it and of course he did. It doesn’t sound like he was forced to do so, but given an option. 

[bOObOO]

So the summary in total is in!  According to the latest word of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles acting as a unified body to state their united perspective, eternal progression has no bounds! Whether within each kingdom or from kingdom to kingdom.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, bOObOO said:

Sometimes suffering from our own unwillingness to do something can prompt us to be more willing to do those things, when we realize those things are worth doing.  Lots of people procrastinate doing things they realize they should do to get those things done. And sometimes not because they are lazy but because they want to do other things first.  Enjoying some specific sins or whatever.  Lots of people seem to enjoy doing bad things, as well as some good things, but to be perfectly good we need to give up on doing bad things, hopefully learning to enjoy doing only good things from that moment forward.

3 cheers for repentance! A key blessing from the sacrament ordinance.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, Gillebre said:

This is an interesting thought process. The fact that we are told that our bodies are quickened, in the Resurrection, by a portion of the glory that we will receive, does give me pause.

My mind is drawn back to two ideas: will the Father ever stop trying to reach us, bless us, teach us, and will we ever reach a point where we are so darkened or so set in our ways that we lose the ability to grow and change? Is there an artificial barrier between Kingdoms wherein God cannot allow others who are hunger and thirsting for growth, for greater righteousness? Or is the barrier self-made wherein they become so comfortable and used to what they have that they can't conceive of having more, and no outside force can alter the use of their agency in their stagnation?

More specifically does anyone have a thought as to the purpose of ministry from those greater glories to those in lesser glories? All that God does is to bless and nurture His children, so where do you think that ministry fits into the grand plan once the resurrection is complete? Obviously we're still missing several pieces of the big picture, but I'm interested to know what others think about this.

I don't know, I'm still working on my willingness  !

The purpose of ministry to lesser kingdoms, in my opinion, is to convey the light of Christ that is in and through all things, and personal contact is one of the vehicles by which that happens in the resurrected kingdoms of glory, which in essence is no different than what we see now in this world.

I would also say that many do not realize they are darkened and set in their ways. It is said the earth abides a celestial law -- we can see from scripture how it abides all levels of light and darkness (Heavenly Father and Christ can come down, angels; Eden was here as was Zion before it was was translated; Jesus walked the earth as a mortal god; translated people live here and come and go; Urim and Thummin are used; the Holy Spirit is present (comes and goes); sons of perdition and devils without bodies live here also. In this world, the full light of Gad can shine -- sometimes requiring a quickening of people and things -- but does not penetrate into the spirits of the unwilling, or, only as far as they are willing (hence sons of perdition).

The devils' choices ran out -- as far as we know, and for all that matters -- so maybe ours can. too. We keep estates until we don't.

Edited August 19, 2021 by CV75

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

I've always wondered how the doctrine that we are resurrected with the body that matches the glory of the kingdom we will go to, works with the idea that we could progress between kingdoms.

Are resurrected bodies capable of changing glory?

Also, if progress forward is possible can you digress backward?

The glory of God is intelligence or in other words truth and light.  As long as you are capable of learning you are capable of progressing.
The only restriction that could be placed on the Terrestrial for example would be to withhold truth of a Celestial nature (not unlike the knowledge that was withheld from Adam and Eve).
In any finite but eternal environment eventually all knowledge would unavoidably be received.  At that point either the environment expands or the resident moves beyond it.

A Terrestrial being that continued to learn and progress would unavoidably become a Celestial being eventually OR the Terrestrial environment would be forced to admit new truth beyond the Terrestrial level.

Edited August 19, 2021 by JLHPROF

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The glory of God is intelligence or in other words truth and light.  As long as you are capable of learning you are capable of progressing.
The only restriction that could be placed on the Terrestrial for example would be to withhold truth of a Celestial nature (not unlike the knowledge that was withheld from Adam and Eve).
In any finite but eternal environment eventually all knowledge would unavoidably be received.  At that point either the environment expands or the resident moves beyond it.

A Terrestrial being that continued to learn and progress would unavoidably become a Celestial being eventually OR the Terrestrial environment would be forced to admit new truth beyond the Terrestrial level.

That's an interesting way to look at it.  

[bOObOO]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The glory of God is intelligence or in other words truth and light.  As long as you are capable of learning you are capable of progressing.
The only restriction that could be placed on the Terrestrial for example would be to withhold truth of a Celestial nature (not unlike the knowledge that was withheld from Adam and Eve).
In any finite but eternal environment eventually all knowledge would unavoidably be received.  At that point either the environment expands or the resident moves beyond it.

A Terrestrial being that continued to learn and progress would unavoidably become a Celestial being eventually OR the Terrestrial environment would be forced to admit new truth beyond the Terrestrial level.

Add to what you said something about needing authority/power to do something, as well as knowledge of how to do it, and then I think you will have pretty much wrapped that up. 

Those of telestial or terrestrial glory may know how adults reproduce to have children, for example, and yet lack the authority/power to do it.  Or they may know how to travel through outer space and yet lack the authority/power to do that.  Etc, etc.

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That's an interesting way to look at it.  

I'm a big fan of D&C 130.  Joseph taught that:
"18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."

Our "Celestial glory" is as much about the knowledge of Godliness we receive as it is about any supposed physical condition, although I see them as definitely related.
We may attain to a Terrestrial glory/intelligence in this life and rise with that in the resurrection and we will always be behind the person with the Celestial glory/intelligence.

But both will continue to learn and grow eternally.  There is no end to knowledge.

[bOObOO]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'm a big fan of D&C 130.  Joseph taught that:
"18 Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection.
19 And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come."

Our "Celestial glory" is as much about the knowledge of Godliness we receive as it is about any supposed physical condition, although I see them as definitely related.
We may attain to a Terrestrial glory/intelligence in this life and rise with that in the resurrection and we will always be behind the person with the Celestial glory/intelligence.

But both will continue to learn and grow eternally.  There is no end to knowledge.

Some have wondered what would prevent those of telestial or terrestrial glory, immortals as they would be, from reproducing to have immortal children, and I can tell you one thing that would prevent it.  Them being children, in children's bodies, themselves.

Ah, but some would say those immortal children in children's bodies would grow up, getting older and older until they were finally able, physically, to reproduce themselves as other immortal children.  Wouldn't that be the case?  Maybe, maybe not.

We suppose that when we are resurrected we will all be at a certain age, adults in form and able to do all that any adult in good health is able to do.  And yet right now as we are adults we are not able to reproduce bodies of immortal children.

I think many people will be surprised at what they will and will not be able to do, even as immortal people.

[CV75]

Thinking about this a little more, I would suggest that progression between kingdoms might require additional probation and ordinances, just like those in this life added to the premortal tests (such as council participation, war in heaven) and ordinances (i.e., birth, answering to baptism / rebirth). There would need to be a "newer" everlasting covenant for the next estate(s), and not just a continuance of something received in this world (in person or by proxy). That is certainly something that has not been revealed.

Edited August 20, 2021 by CV75

[rpn]

22 hours ago, bOObOO said:

deleted

Edited August 20, 2021 by rpn

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no end to knowledge.

Do you believe then that there is still stuff for God the Father to learn?

[rongo]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Do you believe then that there is still stuff for God the Father to learn?

I do. This is anathema under the JFS/McConkie school of thought that dominates in the Church now (cf. "Seven Deadly Heresies"), but I think the assumption that God is absolutely omnipotent or omniscient shares assumptions with Calvinists (i.e., that God's sovereignty is threatened if there isn't absolute omniscience/omnipotence). Because I subscribe to the Skousenite school of thought (God's power is the honor intelligences give Him), there can be growth in knowledge or power with Him still being all-knowing and all-powerful. 

I like B.H. Roberts's explanation of omniscience/omnipotence in New Witnesses for God (3 vols.). Paraphrasing: anything that can be done, God can do. Anything that can be known, God knows. But, not even He can create a valley without higher elevations on the sides. His omnipotence is not the power to do absolutely anything, worlds without end. As far as foreknowledge, since the future is determined by countless decisions and choices constantly happening, the future continually unfolds. As it unfolds, God knows it, but He doesn't know absolutely everything outside of what it is possible to know. 

Pertaining to the question of Elder Talmage's different iterations of advancement between kingdoms in different editions of Articles of Faith, I also like Elder Roberts' explanation, also from NWG. He argued in favor and asked what the point of ministering to lower kingdoms from higher one would be if they are dammed in their respective kingdoms for-absolutely-ever. Why teach and instruct? However, as higher beings advance at higher rates, their progress is probably exponential/geometrical, so while it is possible to one day be where they were, it isn't possible to be where they are. It's still best (no contest) to advance as far as we can in mortality, and not rely on eternal progression. 

ETA: We were having a gospel discussion a few weeks ago before bed, and I mentioned the Seven Deadly Heresies talk. My 15 year-old was intrigued, so I had him look it up and read it. He also had thoughts along the lines of "Yeah, I don't agree with Elder McConkie on this one. Or this one." It's not the type of stuff that is discussed at church any more (especially with the tight correlation of only conference talks and Come Follow Me, and the very limited "approved" sources), but it is interesting and edifying for most people to be able to discuss the mysteries --- even when people don't agree on them or they play "prophet poker" with ideas. Most people very much want to think about and discuss things like that, even though Church culture for a long time now has discouraged it. That's what draws people like us to places like this, in many cases. 

Edited August 20, 2021 by rongo

[Nofear]

4 minutes ago, rongo said:

Pertaining to the question of Elder Talmage's different iterations of advancement between kingdoms in different editions of Articles of Faith, I also like Elder Roberts' explanation, also from NWG. He argued in favor and asked what the point of ministering to lower kingdoms from higher one would be if they are dammed in their respective kingdoms for-absolutely-ever. Why teach and instruct? However, as higher beings advance at higher rates, their progress is probably exponential/geometrical, so while it is possible to one day be where they were, it isn't possible to be where they are. It's still best (no contest) to advance as far as we can in mortality, and not rely on eternal progression. 

That was basically Elder Talmage's position. Celestial = greater "acceleration" and so while terrestrial beings could one day be where celestial beings are today, the gap between the two populations would be ever growing still.

[rongo]

1 minute ago, Nofear said:

That was basically Elder Talmage's position. Celestial = greater "acceleration" and so while terrestrial beings could one day be where celestial beings are today, the gap between the two populations would be ever growing still.

Not according to the Zimmer account, though. That has Talmage seeing trans-kingdom progression as "an impossibility."

[bOObOO]

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

I do. This is anathema under the JFS/McConkie school of thought that dominates in the Church now (cf. "Seven Deadly Heresies"), but I think the assumption that God is absolutely omnipotent or omniscient shares assumptions with Calvinists (i.e., that God's sovereignty is threatened if there isn't absolute omniscience/omnipotence). Because I subscribe to the Skousenite school of thought (God's power is the honor intelligences give Him), there can be growth in knowledge or power with Him still being all-knowing and all-powerful. 

I like B.H. Roberts's explanation of omniscience/omnipotence in New Witnesses for God (3 vols.). Paraphrasing: anything that can be done, God can do. Anything that can be known, God knows. But, not even He can create a valley without higher elevations on the sides. His omnipotence is not the power to do absolutely anything, worlds without end. As far as foreknowledge, since the future is determined by countless decisions and choices constantly happening, the future continually unfolds. As it unfolds, God knows it, but He doesn't know absolutely everything outside of what it is possible to know. 

Pertaining to the question of Elder Talmage's different iterations of advancement between kingdoms in different editions of Articles of Faith, I also like Elder Roberts' explanation, also from NWG. He argued in favor and asked what the point of ministering to lower kingdoms from higher one would be if they are dammed in their respective kingdoms for-absolutely-ever. Why teach and instruct? However, as higher beings advance at higher rates, their progress is probably exponential/geometrical, so while it is possible to one day be where they were, it isn't possible to be where they are. It's still best (no contest) to advance as far as we can in mortality, and not rely on eternal progression. 

I think that if we think of trying to catch up to everyone who already knows every kind of thing there is to know, the process of getting to that point will be a lot less enjoyable.  There really is no hurry.  We don't need to know every kind of thing now.  I plan to take it fairly slow while enjoying the journey.  It may be a race of some sort but as long as I cross the finish line, and can pick what I want to learn next, I will enjoy the process even if I am gaining knowledge at a slower pace than some other people.  In this world for example I am focusing more on gospel principles and applications than I am on medicines and archaeology. Lots of things are going to change when our mortal bodies are changed to immortal, so a lot of things we know now will become more redundant.        

26 minutes ago, rongo said:

ETA: We were having a gospel discussion a few weeks ago before bed, and I mentioned the Seven Deadly Heresies talk. My 15 year-old was intrigued, so I had him look it up and read it. He also had thoughts along the lines of "Yeah, I don't agree with Elder McConkie on this one. Or this one." It's not the type of stuff that is discussed at church any more (especially with the tight correlation of only conference talks and Come Follow Me, and the very limited "approved" sources), but it is interesting and edifying for most people to be able to discuss the mysteries --- even when people don't agree on them or they play "prophet poker" with ideas. Most people very much want to think about and discuss things like that, even though Church culture for a long time now has discouraged it. That's what draws people like us to places like this, in many cases. 

Yeah it is sometimes difficult to find people in a ward I live in who like to talk about the things I like to talk about, including the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but I have found some the more I have gotten to know those people.  God is my favorite person to talk with about these things though because he often gives me more than just speculation.  He knows what he is talking about.

[Nofear]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

Not according to the Zimmer account, though. That has Talmage seeing trans-kingdom progression as "an impossibility."

I meant Elder Ballard (from what I recall of his book https://www.amazon.com/Three-Degrees-Glory-Melvin-Ballard-ebook/dp/B001UV3FIC).