Covid cases, hospitalizations, death trends and other touchy subjects…

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Unless he had very good life insurance, mortgage insurance, or either of them are from a wealthy family, my guess is his family’s freedom (as in opportunities) just got drastically limited in several ways.  I hope she has strong family support.

 

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Update: the co-founder of the San Angelo Freedom Defenders, who publicly stated, 'I care more about freedom than I care about your personal health', passed away today, age 30. I feel really bad for his wife, who has made it very clear that she both disagreed with and deeply loved her husband, and her soon-to-be four daughters.

I also feel really bad for anyone who chose to listen to this man's words over the teachings of the living prophets.

Like Calm implied, I really don't understand the "personal freedom" angle of this.  He is now dead.  His personal freedom doesn't exist anymore.  He's about as 'bound' as a person can be, no longer free act but now can only be acted upon by outside forces.  The freedom of his family is now greatly curtailed by his choices as well.

How free was he when he was on the ventilator compared to his freedom before his illness?  

I don't see how anyone is labeling this issue as a fight for freedom. Freedom means specific things.  He retained his freedom to choose not the wear a mask or get the vaccine but once the consequences of those choices came into play, that was the end of that.  His choices have brought him and his family much less freedom, not more.

Health is freedom.  Ask anyone who has ever been sick, especially chronically.

Edited August 29, 2021 by bluebell

[Rivers]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

The south has filled up the hospitals with COVID due to unvaccinated people and now a near Cat 5 hurricane is barreling down on many of them.  Unnecessary misery being compounded by more misery.

The south has been really hot so more people staying indoors. More people getting sick. It’s kind of like their winter.

All the unvaccinated people doesn’t help either.

[Tacenda]

On 8/29/2021 at 11:49 AM, bluebell said:

 

Like Calm implied, I really don't understand the "personal freedom" angle of this.  He is now dead.  His personal freedom doesn't exist anymore.  He's about as 'bound' as a person can be, no longer free act but now can only be acted upon by outside forces.  The freedom of his family is now greatly curtailed by his choices as well.

How free was he when he was on the ventilator compared to his freedom before his illness?  

I don't see how anyone is labeling this issue as a fight for freedom. Freedom means specific things.  He retained his freedom to choose not the wear a mask or get the vaccine but once the consequences of those choices came into play, that was the end of that.  His choices have brought him and his family much less freedom, not more.

Health is freedom.  Ask anyone who has ever been sick, especially chronically.

My nephew posted this guy's tic tok, what can I say to change his and some of my children's freaking minds! 

https://www.facebook.com/jenonorato2020/videos/254209376415651

Edited August 31, 2021 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2052297521000883
 

From Sept. 2021

[bsjkki]

autoantibodies

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciimmunol.abl4340

[T-Shirt]

59 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2052297521000883

Careful, Nehor is going to claim you've been lied to.

[bsjkki]

27 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Careful, Nehor is going to claim you've been lied to.

I expect it every time. Healthy discourse is fine with me.

[Robert J Anderson]

26 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Careful, Nehor is going to claim you've been lied to.

Just find a way to work in the vaccines and you should be fine with Nehor. 

[T-Shirt]

Nehor, posted earlier a study on Ivermectin done by Together Trial, which claimed treatment with Ivermectin had, "no effect, what so ever".  However, there have been 63 studies on the effectiveness of Ivermectin for Covid 19 and the meta data on these studies show that for early treatment, Ivermectin showed 72% improvement, as prophylaxis 84% improvement and as a late treatment, 40% improvement.

The preliminary report on the study by Together Trial, touted by Nehor as well as the NY Times and other media outlets, says, "The trial randomization chart suggests major problems and does not match the protocol." and, "This trial uses a soft primary outcome, easily subject to bias and event inflation in both arms" and, "Trial design, analysis, and presentation, along with previous public and private statements suggest investigator bias."

See here:

https://ivmmeta.com/

And here:

https://c19ivermectin.com/togetherivm.html

It appears, Nehor may have been lied to.

Edited September 2, 2021 by T-Shirt

[ttribe]

37 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Nehor, posted earlier a study on Ivermectin done by Together Trial, which claimed treatment with Ivermectin had, "no effect, what so ever".  However, there have been 63 studies on the effectiveness of Ivermectin for Covid 19 and the meta data on these studies show that for early treatment, Ivermectin showed 72% improvement, as prophylaxis 84% improvement and as a late treatment, 40% improvement.

The preliminary report on the study by Together Trial, touted by Nehor as well as the NY Times and other media outlets, says, "The trial randomization chart suggests major problems and does not match the protocol." and, "This trial uses a soft primary outcome, easily subject to bias and event inflation in both arms" and, "Trial design, analysis, and presentation, along with previous public and private statements suggest investigator bias."

See here:

https://ivmmeta.com/

And here:

https://c19ivermectin.com/togetherivm.html

It appears, Nehor may have been lied to.

How much experience do you have with statistical sampling and research methodologies? 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, T-Shirt said:

Careful, Nehor is going to claim you've been lied to.

43 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Just find a way to work in the vaccines and you should be fine with Nehor. 

I don't think that anyone has a problem with the data on Ivermectin.  We just need more.  Every single Ivermectin study I have read concludes "more research is needed..."

What we have a problem with is that people are choosing non-prescription horse medicine, not intended for humans, with a different composition and higher dose, for an unproven off-label use without guidance from their doctors leading to a "590% jump in poison control calls about Ivermectin" in Texas alone!  https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/08/30/fact-check-590-spike-texas-poison-control-calls-ivermectin/5643254001/

We don't seem to be seeing the same reactions and problems with vaccines.  

Some of the strongest studies on Ivermectin - Double blind and randomized - showed no statistical improvement from placebo.  And this was in mild cases.  I have not seen one study which has shown that Ivermectin is effective in severe cases of Covid. 

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777389  You wont find one study which shows that vaccines are not effective. 

It would be awesome if we had another effective tool to fight Covid!  More data is needed though.   No treatment will ever replace effective preventive measures however.  

I can't understand those who would choose Ivermectin over vaccine.  

 

[pogi]

57 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Nehor, posted earlier a study on Ivermectin done by Together Trial, which claimed treatment with Ivermectin had, "no effect, what so ever".  However, there have been 63 studies on the effectiveness of Ivermectin for Covid 19 and the meta data on these studies show that for early treatment, Ivermectin showed 72% improvement, as prophylaxis 84% improvement and as a late treatment, 40% improvement.

The preliminary report on the study by Together Trial, touted by Nehor as well as the NY Times and other media outlets, says, "The trial randomization chart suggests major problems and does not match the protocol." and, "This trial uses a soft primary outcome, easily subject to bias and event inflation in both arms" and, "Trial design, analysis, and presentation, along with previous public and private statements suggest investigator bias."

See here:

https://ivmmeta.com/

And here:

https://c19ivermectin.com/togetherivm.html

It appears, Nehor may have been lied to.

Why not just get vaccinated? 

[bsjkki]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why not just get vaccinated? 

I think a proper mix of vaccination and therapeutics are the best course. Vaccinated people are dying too and more variants are coming.

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I think a proper mix of vaccination and therapeutics are the best course. Vaccinated people are dying too and more variants are coming.

Agreed.  

My question is why choose ivermectin over vaccine?

[Chum]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

My question is why choose ivermectin over vaccine?

THIS IS A VERY VERY GOOD QUESTION.

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

Agreed.  

My question is why choose ivermectin over vaccine?

You would have to ask someone who thinks that way. I’m more of an ‘use all our resources to combat this’ type of thinker. Let’s use  whatever resources we can to bring hospitalizations down.

Edited September 2, 2021 by bsjkki

[T-Shirt]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think that anyone has a problem with the data on Ivermectin.

Nehor does.

Quote

What we have a problem with is that people are choosing non-prescription horse medicine, not intended for humans,

None of the studies included horse medication.  Even doctors have been criticized by some for prescribing ivermectin for their patients.  Anyone who would take OTC horse medication is a fool.  I haven't seen anyone in the media, politics or the medical field encouraging people to take horse medication.  I agree, it is a problem if this is really happening.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

You would have to ask someone who thinks that way. I’m more of an ‘use all our resources to combat this’ type of thinker. Let’s use  whatever resources we can to bring hospitalizations down.

I am in the same boat as you, as is the whole medical community.  ICU docs would LOVE an effective treatment.

My concern is that antivaxers are promoting this drug (even the horse version) as an effective alternative to vaccine.    People are really getting harmed by this.

If the drug shows to be an effective treatment, great!  I am with the rest of the medical community and hospitals in the ‘wait and see’ category.  Promoting this drug online is premature and is fueling self-medicating with horse meds.

[Robert J Anderson]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Agreed.  

My question is why choose ivermectin over vaccine?

I don't know if that is the correct question.  It doesn't have to be an either or.  One, like Joe Rogan, could be vaccinated and when contracting the disease, which the vaccinated can and do still get, that person could then use ivermectin as a treatment along with corticosteroids, etc.

[T-Shirt]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

My question is why choose ivermectin over vaccine?

First of all, I am pro vaccine.  I was vaccinated back in February and am scheduled for a booster shot as I take medication that weakens my immune system.  I wish everyone would get vaccinated.  But, if there are effective therapeutics, we should use them.  I feel bad for those who choose not to get vaccinated and then get sick with Covid.  I wish they had got vaccinated, but I still don't want them to suffer or die, so let's use treatments that are effective and available.

[T-Shirt]

49 minutes ago, ttribe said:

How much experience do you have with statistical sampling and research methodologies? 

Did you read the links I provided?  Did I get something wrong in my very brief summary?

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Nehor does.

None of the studies included horse medication.  Even doctors have been criticized by some for prescribing ivermectin for their patients.  Anyone who would take OTC horse medication is a fool.  I haven't seen anyone in the media, politics or the medical field encouraging people to take horse medication.  I agree, it is a problem if this is really happening.

The biggest problem is that antivaxers are promoting it as an alternative to vaccination.  You don’t hear the medical community promoting this drug for Covid prevention, because we already have a proven prophylaxis that is also more cost effective.  I have not seen a study which suggests this is effective in severe cases.  If we had that data, ICU docs would be ALL OVER it.  The drug company making would love to have that data to promote it and make millions.  It simply isn’t there.  If anything it can shorten the duration of mild/moderate symptoms by a few days (from what I have seen).  Not really the tool we are looking for.

When the ivermectin for humans requires a prescription and can cost upwards of $500, it is no wonder that people are turning to a $5 version for horses that doesn’t require an Rx.  I see promoting this drug online as dangerous for that reason.  People are truly being harmed by it.

Edited September 2, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I don't know if that is the correct question.  It doesn't have to be an either or.  One, like Joe Rogan, could be vaccinated and when contracting the disease, which the vaccinated can and do still get, that person could then use ivermectin as a treatment along with corticosteroids, etc.

I have no problem with that, if it is effective.  Let’s wait and see.  I haven’t seen anything too promising that would prompt me to pay for an expensive drug with little to no benefit.  I think you know that the majority of people promoting this drug are antivaxers though.

Edited September 2, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

it is a problem if this is really happening.

Do you think it is not?  
 

https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/utah-poison-control-center-seeing-five-fold-increase-in-calls-about-ivermectin

https://www.wkyt.com/2021/09/01/calls-ky-poison-control-center-over-ivermectin-have-increased/
 

https://www.mlive.com/public-interest/2021/09/dont-take-animal-dewormer-to-treat-covid-19-warns-michigan-poison-control-center.html

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/08/30/fact-check-590-spike-texas-poison-control-calls-ivermectin/5643254001/

[ttribe]

50 minutes ago, T-Shirt said:

Did you read the links I provided?  Did I get something wrong in my very brief summary?

Because I don't think you have even a basic understanding of the things you are quoting such that you can critically evaluate what's being said on that page.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02081-w

https://grftr.news/why-was-a-major-study-on-ivermectin-for-covid-19-just-retracted/