Covid III: Delta Force

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm doing fine, dude. You're hyperventilating.

I wish. That sounds more fun.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I'm doing fine, dude. You're hyperventilating.

Your comments about raging and jumping the shark look more dramatic than his, just an FYI if you are curious as to how this seems to one observer

[Calm]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:39 PM, Calm said:

It seems so practical and elegant, like burning out part of the forest first to prevent the wildfire itself from spreading…but if the wind shifts, there is a risk.  If Omicron mutates…

Though with Delta out there and plenty other variants, seems they would more like hulking out into an ultimate Zod virus first before mild mannered Omicron.

Looks like there are good reasons not to just let Omicron run wild.  She is basically saying watch what is happening in the UK as we are always a couple of weeks behind them.

https://www.facebook.com/friendlyneighborepidemiologist/posts/434877031468285

Quote

The “let it rip” mentality is short-sighted and selfish. I’ve heard, like you probably have too, that it’s a good thing that Omicron might be milder. From an individual perspective, maybe. From a community perspective, not at all. Why? The huge increase in cases means we will see PROPORTIONAL increases in already overwhelmed hospitalizations and deaths among those with weakened immune systems. Lots of people getting sick at the same time even with mild infections means those people stayed out of the hospital but could still get very sick. And what about long-COVID? We don’t know yet. The best article on this is from the incredible writer, Ed Yong. I would encourage you to go read his in-depth assessment on why ‘let it rip’ is a terrible strategy and excuse with Omicron.

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

From the Atlantic link in the quote above:

Quote

Will the new and rapidly spreading variant overwhelm the U.S. health-care system? The question is moot because the system is already overwhelmed, in a way that is affecting all patients, COVID or otherwise. “The level of care that we’ve come to expect in our hospitals no longer exists,” Lowe said.

The real unknown is what an Omicron cross will do when it follows a Delta hook. Given what scientists have learned in the three weeks since Omicron’s discovery, “some of the absolute worst-case scenarios that were possible when we saw its genome are off the table, but so are some of the most hopeful scenarios,” 

Get your shots and if it is time, please get a booster.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

From the Atlantic link in the quote above:

Get your shots and if it is time, please get a booster.

Got mine. I feel bad for my sister and her husband, who are on assignment in Japan. Every time they leave the country they have to do 14 days of quarantine when they get back. 

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Got mine. I feel bad for my sister and her husband, who are on assignment in Japan. Every time they leave the country they have to do 14 days of quarantine when they get back. 

We haven’t seen my brother and his family in Singapore since it hit, even when my mom died and two of their daughters married last year. If they had come over, they might not have been able to get back in. They managed it yesterday, so are here for three weeks.  There is family business that can’t wait anymore. Tons of family to catch up with both sides including kids and her parents who need more than a hug and a meal  and since I am out of the way and at the moment barf when I get in a car, I may not be able to see them. Hoping the new drug works in time for one meetup before they have to head back.  I know they had to previously stay for quarantine in a government run hotel for thousands of dollars if they came several months ago rather than in their home, hoping that rule has changed. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

We haven’t seen my brother and his family in Singapore since it hit, even when my mom died and two of their daughters married last year. If they had come over, they might not have been able to get back in. They managed it yesterday, so are here for three weeks.  There is family business that can’t wait anymore. Tons of family to catch up with both sides including kids and her parents who need more than a hug and a meal  and since I am out of the way and at the moment barf when I get in a car, I may not be able to see them. Hoping the new drug works in time for one meetup before they have to head back. 

I’m so sorry. It breaks my heart to know how many of us have been separated from family because of Covid.

My sister flew from Mongolia to Guam to Utah, and then drove here to Ohio, so we got to see her for a couple of days. Her husband is in Tokyo, in quarantine. When she gets back to Japan, she’ll be in quarantine for 2 weeks. 

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I’m so sorry. It breaks my heart to know how many of us have been separated from family because of Covid.

The worst part was Mom in her assisted living place. Great care, but she had severe arthritis and dementia, so she was refusing to socialize what little was allowed. She had a stroke a few years before and lost the ability to read and freaked with anything techy outside a TV remote.  Just sat snd watched TV or the ducks and people outside her window.   9 months of no physical contact with family, just talking through the window. It sounds so bizarre to think of it as a possibility. Never considered it, even when they locked down the previous year for flu for a week. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

The worst part was Mom in her assisted living place. Great care, but she had severe arthritis and dementia, so she was refusing to socialize what little was allowed. She had a stroke a few years before and lost the ability to read and freaked with anything techy outside a TV remote.  Just sat snd watched TV or the ducks and people outside her window.   9 months of no physical contact with family, just talking through the window. It sounds so bizarre to think of it as a possibility. Never considered it, even when they locked down the previous year for flu for a week. 

That’s awful. We have family members who have died and others who are permanently disabled because of Covid, so I’m all in favor of caution. But every restriction has a cost. 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

But every restriction has a cost. 

And she had made the choice to stay there rather than move in with me because she wanted a few more years of independence. I thought she was an idiot at the time, but she was still mentally capable mostly at the time and family backed her as they hadn’t seen her at her worst like I had. They alsoaren’t as good at picturing worse scenarios as I am, lol. But this was one I hadn’t imagined. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Calm

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Calm said:

And she had made the choice to stay there rather than move in with me because she wanted a few more years of independence. I thought she was an idiot at the time, but she was still coherent at the time and family backed her. They aren’t as good at picturing worse scenarios as I am, lol. But this was one I hadn’t imagined. 

My folks are still in their house but have pretty much been home bound since the pandemic. My mom hates it, but my dad is content to work in his garden. 

[Orthodox Christian]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:49 PM, Stargazer said:

Odds are, yes. But the death rate for even the fully-vaxxed is rather scary.

• June 2021 - before Omicron - CDC says roughly 4,100 people have been hospitalized or died with Covid breakthrough infections after vaccination

Here's the stats for England (not including all the UK, btw) for January through July:

It's blazingly obvious that those who refuse vaccination without having a valid medical reason for doing so, are NUTS. 

I still don't support mandatory vaccination, however. 

 

I don't support mandatory vaccination, but increasingly I ask myself why? If I wished to visit certain countries that require vaccination against diseases there I would comply. When I became a health care professional I was required to be vaccinated against Hep B, and I complied, I had no choice. I have just watched a video of a young woman awaiting major life saving surgery which has been put off because ITU beds are taken up by covid cases, mostly unvaccinated people. I had all my children vaccinated, and I also am vaccinated against C19. So why am I against mandating vaccinations against this infection. It seems a bit lame to say that it just goes against the grain, and that our freedoms are more important than anything else. Then comes our Lord's commandment to love our neighbours as ourselves, which ought, I suppose to make Christians set aside their own resistance to vaccination for the greater good. I find the question and my own conflicting feelings disturbing, on the one hand I don't agree  with the authorites mandating vaccination, but on the other, I would probably feel relieved if they did. 

[Calm]

14 hours ago, Orthodox Christian said:

I find the question and my own conflicting feelings disturbing, on the one hand I don't agree  with the authorites mandating vaccination, but on the other, I would probably feel relieved if they did. 

I am close to your position. Part of me believes people should have choice, but in this case the consequences seem to impact way too many others. And there are plenty of other mandated medical requirements, this isn’t that unusual…even the possible side effects imo.  What is different is the number of people taking it all at about the same time as well as the world watching, so any issue is front and center instead of back page.  But still forcing medical treatment…don’t like the idea. 
 

Ach…forgot the thread I was in, we need a Covid mandate thread to keep separate from medical info

Edited December 18, 2021 by Calm

[Peacefully]

5 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Got mine. I feel bad for my sister and her husband, who are on assignment in Japan. Every time they leave the country they have to do 14 days of quarantine when they get back. 

My son is stationed in South Korea and just when his time was freed up from studies so he could travel, they  brought back COVID restriction - limited gatherings and early closings. 

[Orthodox Christian]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I am close to your position. Part of me believes people should have choice, but in this case the consequences seem to impact way too many others. And there are plenty of other mandated medical requirements, this isn’t that unusual…even the possible side effects imo.  What is different is the number of people taking it all at about the same time as well as the world watching, so any issue is front and center instead of back page.  But still forcing medical treatment…don’t like the idea. 

One of the worst aspects of this in our society has been the rise of judgemental finger pointing. People who contact the TV stations saying that those unvaccinated who contract covid should be denied treatment. Here in the UK we all pay for our healthcare through taxation. So everyone is entitled to care that is free at the point of delivery no matter what their lifestyle choices might be. So I find those sentiments offensive because they strike at the heart of the ethos of our NHS, and are deeply unpleasant.

[CA Steve]

1 hour ago, Orthodox Christian said:

One of the worst aspects of this in our society has been the rise of judgemental finger pointing. People who contact the TV stations saying that those unvaccinated who contract covid should be denied treatment. Here in the UK we all pay for our healthcare through taxation. So everyone is entitled to care that is free at the point of delivery no matter what their lifestyle choices might be. So I find those sentiments offensive because they strike at the heart of the ethos of our NHS, and are deeply unpleasant.

Should those who refuse vaccinations be held responsible for societal costs of such refusals? If so, how?

Why should my tax dollars help pay the costs of something that is so preventable?

[gurn]

6 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Why should my tax dollars help pay the costs of something that is so preventable?

Why should tax dollars pay for someone who smokes, or does drugs? What about those that over eat, or don’t exercise regularly?

How far do you want to take it?

Edited December 18, 2021 by gurn

[CA Steve]

33 minutes ago, gurn said:

Why should tax dollars pay for someone who smokes, or does drugs? What about those that over eat, or don’t exercise regularly?

How far do you want to take it?

LIfe style choices should have consequences paid for MORE by those who make them than those who do not. 

If you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet should I pay for your ICU stay?

Or should we just ignore all choices people make regardless of cost to society?

How far do you want to limit it?

[Orthodox Christian]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

Should those who refuse vaccinations be held responsible for societal costs of such refusals? If so, how?

Why should my tax dollars help pay the costs of something that is so preventable?

I think the unvaccinated should be encouraged to get the vaccination, mandatory vaccinations should be a very last resort. 

As for your tax dollars paying for preventable illness. Does that include heart disease, smoking related illness, alcohol related illness, illness through drug abuse and sexual illness. In the UK generally we don't think like that, our taxes support everyone. I am happy with that  because someone else's tax contributions will support me and mine as and when we need them. Having a health service available to all is a great thing and very close to British hearts.

[Chum]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

LIfe style choices should have consequences paid for MORE by those who make them than those who do not. 

If you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet should I pay for your ICU stay?

Or should we just ignore all choices people make regardless of cost to society?

How far do you want to limit it?

It is one thing when insufficient resources forces us to ration what we can provide.

But if we can supply a basic need and deny that based only on a calculation - I believe that isn't in harmony with the example that the Savior set. Doing that by default is evidence we have lost our way.

[Chum]

3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

If you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet should I pay for your ICU stay?

Speaking generally (and accepting the premise that helmetlessness is a known poor decision), I default to yes.

My supporting beliefs are this:

The Savior and the Church both center on principles that teach our mistakes must be redeemable.[0]

Imposing artificial consequences is at odds with the principles of redemption[1] - and pushes toward being in harmony with the Adversary's agenda.

We hurt each other and are hurt by each other. It is wisdom to accept this as part of our human reality. It is within that acceptance that we must continually and earnestly strive to minimize the harm[2] we are part of.

The Church's direction is clear. We are to act to reduce others' suffering. also [2]

[0] Companion principle: Failure is the material successes get built out of  [1] Within a spirit of Christ we should want exceptions to be outliers, be provably necessary and limited to unambiguously advancing strongly worthwhile goals   [2] The Savior's examples tended to reduce temporal suffering thru actions and reduce spiritual harm thru teaching.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Chum

[Rain]

Remember what calm said in the op:

"Please stay focused on the medical information and take political, economic, and morality discussions elsewhere. I am not going to report anyone for adding a judgmental comment here and there, when it is personal and it is getting personal for all of for many reasons, not just medical, but please try not to make series of posts in that tone, including accusations of death cults to virtue signaling and anything between, behind, or around."

It's about the science, not the choices of people.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Rain said:

Remember what calm said in the op:

"Please stay focused on the medical information and take political, economic, and morality discussions elsewhere. I am not going to report anyone for adding a judgmental comment here and there, when it is personal and it is getting personal for all of for many reasons, not just medical, but please try not to make series of posts in that tone, including accusations of death cults to virtue signaling and anything between, behind, or around."

It's about the science, not the choices of people.

I lost track of where I was and broke my own rule, lol, just after whining about it. Started new thread for nonchurch behaviour in hopes of that not happening again. Post the rest of the conversation there, please. 
 

Orthodox Christian, as a new poster you may not be aware that thread starters can put limits on the thread’s discussion, though most don’t.  I have started 3 specifically medical Covid threads for information to contribute to us making intelligent, informed decisions that will help keep us and everyone else safe.  Because nonmedical info tends to overwhelm the medical info, I have partner threads for other Covid topics usually.  There are often narrower topics as well, such as rongo’s poll on masks at church and temples thread. 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Calm

[Orthodox Christian]

Thanks, but was I off thread? Still getting to grips with rules etc.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Orthodox Christian said:

Thanks, but was I off thread? Still getting to grips with rules etc.

We all were…I mentioned you directly because everyone else has had the lecture before…mandates are not science or medical info.

If you have studies on infection and hospitalization rates, comparisons of variants, vaccine info etc…that belongs in this thread. 
 

One way of looking at it is this thread is about how the Covid virus behaves, the “other” thread is about how people behave in the context of the virus. 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Calm