Covid III: Delta Force

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

As with so many others, the two anti vaxxers in that age and weight category may pay the ultimate price. I’m watching this occur in real time. Two dead that I know of this past week. Odds are they were not vaxxed. 

Odds are, yes. But the death rate for even the fully-vaxxed is rather scary.

• June 2021 - before Omicron - CDC says roughly 4,100 people have been hospitalized or died with Covid breakthrough infections after vaccination

Here's the stats for England (not including all the UK, btw) for January through July:

It's blazingly obvious that those who refuse vaccination without having a valid medical reason for doing so, are NUTS. 

I still don't support mandatory vaccination, however. 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Stargazer
Added link to data

[Stargazer]

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

You do know that was all staged right?

Of course I do. 🙂 

But the film Erin Brockovich was entirely staged, yet based on a true story. I'm just saying that there are people out there who act like victims because other people refuse to be vaxxed. And before you tell me that unvaxxed who get the bug can transmit it to the vaxxed, yes, I agree with you, but so can the vaxxed get the bug and transmit it to both vaxxed and unvaxxed. We're all doomed, seriously. Just do your best and hope it will be good enough when the time comes you get this plague. It's not an "if", it's a "when", I am afraid. 

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm just saying that there are people out there who act like victims because other people refuse to be vaxxed. And before you tell me that unvaxxed who get the bug can transmit it to the vaxxed, yes, I agree with you, but so can the vaxxed get the bug and transmit it to both vaxxed and unvaxxed. 

Yes, and people wearing condoms can still get STD's and/or pregnant; and people who follow all safety traffic laws and wear seat belts still get in accidents and die - but as with vaccines, these happen at lower rates.  It is the difference between an innocent accident with someone who was following all the laws and happened to slide into your car on a slippery hill, vs reckless endangerment where a drunk driver refuses to follow public safety/health measures and is a greater danger to the public.  Unvaccinated people are equivalent to drunk drivers in mind, in that way.  The public is indeed victimized by them.  They are reckless and endanger the public more than people who are following precautions.  

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, and people wearing condoms can still get STD's and/or pregnant; and people who follow all safety traffic laws and wear seat belts still get in accidents and die - but as with vaccines, these happen at lower rates.  It is the difference between an innocent accident with someone who was following all the laws and happened to slide into your car on a slippery hill, vs reckless endangerment where a drunk driver refuses to follow public safety/health measures and is a greater danger to the public.  Unvaccinated people are equivalent to drunk drivers in mind, in that way.  The public is indeed victimized by them.  They are reckless and endanger the public more than people who are following precautions.  

Yes, they are being stupid. I still oppose mandatory vaccination.

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, they are being stupid. I still oppose mandatory vaccination.

We are approaching 1 million deaths in the US.  At what point would you be in favor of mandates?  2 million dead...3 million...20...40...?

I think if the disease was severe enough, we would all likely be in favor of vaccine mandates at some point.  For example, if a virus threatened the extinction of humans and we had a mostly effective vaccine, and the unvaccinated were the primary drivers of the disease, would you be in favor of mandates?  Why or why not? 

The question is, how many need to die before we draw the line and say the risk to the public is too great (like with drunk driving).

 

[Stargazer]

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

We are approaching 1 million deaths in the US.  At what point would you be in favor of mandates?  2 million dead...3 million...20...40...?

At no point. Your attempt to steer the argument into the unlikeliest of extremes is not logical. General cases should not be driven by the margins, especially by highly unlikely ones.

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think if the disease was severe enough, we would all likely be in favor of vaccine mandates at some point.  For example, if a virus threatened the extinction of humans and we had a mostly effective vaccine, and the unvaccinated were the primary drivers of the disease, would you be in favor of mandates?  Why or why not? 

If we had a "mostly effective vaccine," the extinction of humans would not be in the cards. Your argument annihilates itself.

49 minutes ago, pogi said:

The question is, how many need to die before we draw the line and say the risk to the public is too great (like with drunk driving).

The vaccine protects only partially, and vaxxed can catch it from the vaxxed and the unvaxxed alike. Demonstrably, even if 100% of the population receives full vaccination along with a booster or two, we cannot stop it. This virus has showed itself to be much more adaptive than we are, and we're just going to have to get used to it, in my considered opinion.

And if we have to turn ourselves into a totalitarian society in order to try to stop the virus, an effort which will fail, then shoot me full of Covid and let me die right now (except it would probably not kill me). I wouldn't want to live in such a society. It's bad enough already. That being said, the UK government just voted to enact "Covid passports", which would have to be shown to authorities in order to enter certain venues. I don't doubt that, as this measure is shown to have failed, which it inevitably will, they will try to require Covid passports to go anywhere and do anything. Police will be stopping people who are out and about and demand to see their "papers".

For instance, have a look at Australia, where they throw people forcibly into internment camps without a shred of due process. THAT'S the level of totalitarianhood that we're going to have to endure in order to break this thing. Except that with every new variant that pops up, not only won't we be able to break this thing, we'll be left with the totalitarianism in the end. Don't tell me that it can't happen. With attitudes like The Nehor's (who on this board proudly proclaimed that he would personally vaccinate anti-vaxxers who were pinned down and protesting the process), that's where we'll be heading.

So -- it's a hard NO from me to a vaxxing mandate.

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

George Washington, known totalitarian, implemented the first vaccination mandate in US history.

[JustAnAustralian]

29 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

For instance, have a look at Australia, where they throw people forcibly into internment camps without a shred of due process.

Australia has had 235,558 total cases, 2117 deaths.

At 50,346,315 cases and 802,043 deaths the US has 213x the infections and 378 times the deaths, but only 13x the population.

I'm quite happy for travellers from high risk areas to be quarantined for a suitable period of time to keep the masses healthy.

Edited December 15, 2021 by JustAnAustralian

[pogi]

Are you opposed to all pubic health mandates?  Why or why not?

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The vaccine protects only partially, and vaxxed can catch it from the vaxxed and the unvaxxed alike. 

But not equally.  The unvaccinated are a greater risk to the public, but we have already been over this.  

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Demonstrably, even if 100% of the population receives full vaccination along with a booster or two, we cannot stop it. This virus has showed itself to be much more adaptive than we are, and we're just going to have to get used to it, in my considered opinion.

The goal is not to stop it, but to stop the threat of hospitalization and death it causes to the public.  To denuclearize it.

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

And if we have to turn ourselves into a totalitarian society in order to try to stop the virus, an effort which will fail, then shoot me full of Covid and let me die right now (except it would probably not kill me).

 Wow!  Maybe you should take a dose of your own medicine!  Remember when you said:

Quote

Your attempt to steer the argument into the unlikeliest of extremes is not logical. General cases should not be driven by the margins, especially by highly unlikely ones.

Vaccine mandates already exist for our children to go to school.  Public health mandates exist all over the place.  Seat belts are mandated.  Drunk driving is illegal.  Smoking in public areas (FAR less likely to kill someone than Covid) is illegal. This idea that we will become a "totalitarian society" because of a vaccine mandate during a deadly pandemic is beyond paranoid.  Why are other public health mandates ok, but not this one (the most deadly one).  Please answer that one question.  How many people died from second hand smoke?  Only around 10,000 die from drunk driving annually.  Shall we compare that to Covid? 

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

That being said, the UK government just voted to enact "Covid passports", which would have to be shown to authorities in order to enter certain venues. I don't doubt that, as this measure is shown to have failed, which it inevitably will, they will try to require Covid passports to go anywhere and do anything. Police will be stopping people who are out and about and demand to see their "papers".

Kind of like our children are required to show proof of vaccination if they want to go to school? Like I am required to show proof of vaccination if I want my job (which the supreme court just decided is constitutional and religious exemptions are not justified for health care workers)?  Vaccine mandates have been historically shown to be constitutional and have been enacted historically with small pox, for example.  Thank God for it!  We still aren't a totalitarian nation for some reason.  What happened?

How else would you enforce a vaccine mandate?

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

For instance, have a look at Australia, where they throw people forcibly into internment camps without a shred of due process. THAT'S the level of totalitarianhood that we're going to have to endure in order to break this thing. Except that with every new variant that pops up, not only won't we be able to break this thing, we'll be left with the totalitarianism in the end. Don't tell me that it can't happen. With attitudes like The Nehor's (who on this board proudly proclaimed that he would personally vaccinate anti-vaxxers who were pinned down and protesting the process), that's where we'll be heading.

Yes, lets look at Australia and how absurd it is to compare their practices to an "internment camp".  You are just parroting Ron Johnson who's remarks have been labeled "pants on fire".

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by pogi

[Stargazer]

Decided to back out of this.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Stargazer

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Here's the stats for England (not including all the UK, btw) for January through July:

Are they doing boosters over there?

[Stargazer]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Are they doing boosters over there?

Yep. Wife and I got ours just last month.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Are you opposed to all pubic health mandates?  Why or why not?

Nevermind, pogi. I've deleted my response to your post. @Calm is right. Discussing mandates is off topic for this thread, so I'm leaving you with the last word on this. Note that this doesn't concede defeat on the topic!  

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Stargazer

[Calm]

Politics absolutely not allowed in this thread. Please discuss mandates elsewhere.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

George Washington, known totalitarian, implemented the first vaccination mandate in US history.

Yep, he ordered that all his soldiers, who were under his command as the Continental Army, be vaccinated for smallpox. Nice try, but last time I looked, the United States was not the Army. 

ETA: Deleted part of this post as unnecessary. If you want to respond to this, fine, but I'm dropping discussion of covid mandates in this thread as off-topic.

Have a nice day.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2021 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Politics absolutely not allowed in this thread. Please discuss mandates elsewhere.

Yes, ma'am. It's my fault, sorry. Mea culpa.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Stargazer

[bsjkki]

 

[bsjkki]

 

[strappinglad]

Maybe there should not be extensive measures to try to stop Omicron. If it is quite mild and most everyone gets it, then will that not partially immunize the planet?

[The Nehor]

This is the stupidest timeline.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yep, he ordered that all his soldiers, who were under his command as the Continental Army, be vaccinated for smallpox. Nice try, but last time I looked, the United States was not the Army. 

ETA: Deleted part of this post as unnecessary. If you want to respond to this, fine, but I'm dropping discussion of covid mandates in this thread as off-topic.

Have a nice day.

The army is a part of the United States. That retort was pretty pathetic. You doing okay?

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Maybe there should not be extensive measures to try to stop Omicron. If it is quite mild and most everyone gets it, then will that not partially immunize the planet?

It seems so practical and elegant, like burning out part of the forest first to prevent the wildfire itself from spreading…but if the wind shifts, there is a risk.  If Omicron mutates…

Though with Delta out there and plenty other variants, seems they would more like hulking out into an ultimate Zod virus first before mild mannered Omicron.

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The army is a part of the United States. That retort was pretty pathetic. You doing okay?

The army is part of the United States, is it?  That is the single most ridiculous response I have ever seen you post. It's also a raging non sequitur. 

General Washington could legally command his troops to do pretty much anything he liked. He couldn't command civilians to so much as tip their hats. Now, he could point guns at civilians and force them to do so, but it's not the same thing is it?

You've seriously jumped the shark.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

The army is part of the United States, is it?  That is the single most ridiculous response I have ever seen you post. It's also a raging non sequitur. 

General Washington could legally command his troops to do pretty much anything he liked. He couldn't command civilians to so much as tip their hats. Now, he could point guns at civilians and force them to do so, but it's not the same thing is it?

You've seriously jumped the shark.

Okay, I am going to mark that as “not doing okay”.

[Stargazer]

35 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Okay, I am going to mark that as “not doing okay”.

I'm doing fine, dude. You're hyperventilating.