Covid III: Delta Force

[Harry T. Clark]

11 minutes ago, Chum said:

It's wise to take into account his history of advancing anti-vax and other deathcult talking points.

No, you jumped the gun and are backtracking now.  Questioning the narrative doesn't equate to promoting a deathcult mentality.  It helps in finding out where the weaknesses in the narrative are, if any.

[MiserereNobis]

47 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Anyway, what do you think would occur if there were discovered a medicine that was 100% effective at preventing death from covid-19?  What would that do to the vaccine proponents and their agenda to vaccinate everyone?  It probably would hurt the agenda because fear would no longer be there, right?

It depends on what you mean by preventing death. People who are in the hospital for two months, intubated for one, but live and end up home on long haul covid haven't died, so that treatment prevented their death. I still wouldn't want to go through that hellish experience, though, so I'd still take the vaccine.

Or do you mean preventing getting sick? If something prevents you 100% from getting covid in the first place, I would certainly take it. That kinda sounds something like a vaccine, though, in the sense that it's preventative. 

Or do you mean not going to the hospital? I would still hate to be really sick for a week, even if it means no hospitalization. I'm not afraid of dying from the flu, but I still get the flu shot so I don't have to get sick, miss work, etc.

A friend of mine got shingles. It was terrible. He wasn't at risk of dying, but it wasn't fun. The shingles vaccine can prevent that. When I'm old enough, I'm definitely getting the shingles vaccine. I don't want shingles, not because I'm afraid of dying, but because I don't want to get sick.

To sum up. Here are my desires in order: 1) don't get sick with covid in the first place. 2) if I get sick, it is mild. 3) if it is bad enough for hospitalization, I don't have to go to the ICU. 4) if I'm in the ICU, I don't have to be intubated. 5) if I'm intubated, I don't die.

The vaccine does this, so I got it. A medicine that prevents death only stops #5. I don't want #1-4, either.

[Calm]

 

25 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

It directly goes to the advances in medicine and how they might be hindered by profit motives. 

Outside the thread scope as that goes into discussion about people’s behaviour and economics rather than medical info about Covid or treatments. 
 

So please do as Pogi asked and start your own thread. Thank you. 

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Questioning the narrative doesn't equate to promoting a deathcult mentality.

Endlessly pushing back on (and attempting to sow doubt in) the best available lifesaving measures, that's pretty deathculty.

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

It helps in finding out where the weaknesses in the narrative are, if any.

It's adorable how you frame this like you challenge all covid narratives equally.

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

It depends on what you mean by preventing death. People who are in the hospital for two months, intubated for one, but live and end up home on long haul covid haven't died, so that treatment prevented their death. I still wouldn't want to go through that hellish experience, though, so I'd still take the vaccine.

Or do you mean preventing getting sick? If something prevents you 100% from getting covid in the first place, I would certainly take it. That kinda sounds something like a vaccine, though, in the sense that it's preventative. 

Or do you mean not going to the hospital? I would still hate to be really sick for a week, even if it means no hospitalization. I'm not afraid of dying from the flu, but I still get the flu shot so I don't have to get sick, miss work, etc.

A friend of mine got shingles. It was terrible. He wasn't at risk of dying, but it wasn't fun. The shingles vaccine can prevent that. When I'm old enough, I'm definitely getting the shingles vaccine. I don't want shingles, not because I'm afraid of dying, but because I don't want to get sick.

To sum up. Here are my desires in order: 1) don't get sick with covid in the first place. 2) if I get sick, it is mild. 3) if it is bad enough for hospitalization, I don't have to go to the ICU. 4) if I'm in the ICU, I don't have to be intubated. 5) if I'm intubated, I don't die.

The vaccine does this, so I got it. A medicine that prevents death only stops #5. I don't want #1-4, either.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was asking Pogi.  What if an antiviral were found that cured everyone who contracted covid-19, even the very ill, thereby preventing death from this for everyone?  It seems obvious that we should all be for that, right?  Even if it promoted vaccine hesitancy, seeing that it would render the vaccine unnecessary, shouldn't we be for it?

[MiserereNobis]

Just now, Harry T. Clark said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was asking Pogi.  What if an antiviral were found that cured everyone who contracted covid-19, even the very ill, thereby preventing death from this for everyone?  It seems obvious that we should all be for that, right?  Even if it promoted vaccine hesitancy, seeing that it would render the vaccine unnecessary, shouldn't we be for it?

You didn't respond to the details of my post (again).

 

[Harry T. Clark]

5 minutes ago, Chum said:

Endlessly pushing back on (and attempting to sow doubt in) the best available lifesaving measures, that's pretty deathculty.

It's adorable how you frame this like you challenge all covid narratives equally.

It's adorable how you worship the vaccine and won't consider alternatives, thinking that the vaccine is somehow equal with religious tenets.  Would you force someone to take the vaccine if they had natural immunity?  Do you agree with what is going on it Australia?

[Harry T. Clark]

2 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

You didn't respond to the details of my post (again).

 

Forgive my trespasses.  Have to go back to work.

[Chum]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

a deathcult mentality

Dear, dear Harry: Please rank these in order of national importance

1. Achieving whatever Ivermectin goal you're advocating.
2. Covid vaccinating every American who isn't immunized.

[Chum]

7 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

It's adorable how you worship the vaccine and won't consider alternatives

There are no alternatives to vaccines. Packing hospitals with critically ill and dying people isn't an alternative to vaccines, not even if you pump them full of ivermectin before they die or become disabled.

[Chum]

14 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Do you agree with what is going on it Australia?

I rarely agree with what goes on in Australia.

[MiserereNobis]

I realize I should not be responding to Harry T. Clark on this thread because this thread is for a discussion of covid stats, facts, and medical info. I'm sorry, I will stop. I ask others to stop, too, so this thread remains open and on topic.

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was asking Pogi.  What if an antiviral were found that cured everyone who contracted covid-19, even the very ill, thereby preventing death from this for everyone?  It seems obvious that we should all be for that, right?  Even if it promoted vaccine hesitancy, seeing that it would render the vaccine unnecessary, shouldn't we be for it?

Please everyone, take to another thread or I will be asking the mods to start banning posters

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I realize I should not be responding to Harry T. Clark on this thread because this thread is for a discussion of covid stats, facts, and medical info. I'm sorry, I will stop. I ask others to stop, too, so this thread remains open and on topic.

Thank you. I know it is tempting. 
 

Harry, if you really care about the topic, start your own thread. 

[Chum]

10 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I realize I should not be responding to Harry T. Clark on this thread because this thread is for a discussion of covid stats, facts, and medical info. I'm sorry, I will stop. I ask others to stop, too, so this thread remains open and on topic.

But but but Last Word Game!

[Chum]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Please everyone, take to another thread or I will be asking the mods to start banning posters

fiiiiinnneeeee

e.

[Chum]

I don't think we talk enough about Katalin Karikó - who's mRNA research led us to Moderna, Pfizer and similar vaccines.

Quote

Karikó relocated to the United States after receiving an invitation from Temple University in 1985. She would eventually transfer to University of Pennsylvania, which would end up being an extremely difficult period.

In that time, messenger RNA research was extremely popular, but shortly after she arrived, the method for using a virus’s genetic material to command a human body to duplicate certain proteins to fight the virus was considered too radical, and too financially risky to fund.

The failed grant applications began piling up on Karikó’s desk, but she was not deterred.

Ten years after she arrived in Philadelphia, she was demoted from her position at UPenn and was then diagnosed with cancer.

Along with another immunologist called Drew Weissman, the pair finally received patents for their mRNA technology in 2012, but after receiving yet more trouble from UPenn, Karikó took a job at BioNTech, a German company founded, perhaps fittingly, also by immigrants.

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Chum

[bsjkki]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00405-3/fulltext

Another possible treatment. 

[bsjkki]

Nice graphics current covid. 
https://www.mayoclinic.org/coronavirus-covid-19/map

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(21)00405-3/fulltext

Another possible treatment. 

I predict a significant uptick in purchases of l-arginine.  If tempted, make sure to check out side effects and drug interactions.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-l-arginine/art-20364681

How strange.  Also being investigated is depleting arginine.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7641537/

Edited October 2, 2021 by Calm

[Chum]

An update to @Calm's March post on molnupiravir. Merck/Ridgeback completed phase III trials of 377 participants...

Quote

...377 participants who tested newly positive for a SARS-CoV-2 infection and had onset of mild-to-moderate COVID-19 symptoms within just the past five days of starting the trial. The enrollees also had to have at least one risk factor for a poor outcome, such as having obesity, diabetes, heart disease, or being age 60 or above.

In hailing the testing, Merck reports that

Quote

After 29 days of follow-up, 53 out of 377 participants who received the placebo were hospitalized with COVID-19, and eight of those participants died. Among those who received the drug, only 28 of 385 were hospitalized and none of those patients died. Put another way, 7.3 percent of patients on the drug were either hospitalized or died compared with 14.1 percent in the placebo group.

Merck also highlighted that the trial was global and that the drug appeared to work equally well against varying SARS-CoV-2 variants, including delta, gamma, and mu. The drug-maker noted that it had viral genetic data to identify variants from 40 percent of participants.

The safety data was equally promising, with participants reporting similar numbers of drug-related adverse events between the placebo group than the drug group (11 percent and 12 percent, respectively). About 3.4 percent of people in the placebo group quit the study due to adverse events, while only 1.3 percent quit in the drug group.

Then for some reason our med reporter decides to spice up the story on Merck's behalf

Quote

The drug at the center of these seemingly smashing results is dubbed molnupiravir—a name inspired by that of Thor's hammer, Mjölnir. The idea is that the drug will strike down SARS-CoV-2, like a mighty blow from the god of thunder.

Okay. So kind of the opposite of critical analysis. The rest of the article reads like more cheerleading - which the drug might well warrant. That should be something we know better after completing Phase IV trials*. Hopefully more critical & qualified eyes are about to publish an appropriate analysis of this data - and hopefully they see cause to be equally cheery.

All that said, one good fit for this drug may be in regions where vaccines are scarce, where it can make the most significant differences in outcomes for that population.

*Per my understanding. Another possibility might an EUA; if that's how EUAs work.

Edited October 2, 2021 by Chum

[juliann]

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

People who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.

British scientists at the University of Oxford examined national records of nearly 150,000 contacts that were traced from roughly 100,000 initial cases. The samples included people who were fully or partially vaccinated with either the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccines, as well as people who were unvaccinated. The researchers then looked at how the vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection with either the alpha variant or the highly contagious delta variant.

 

Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated.

[The Nehor]

In case anyone is wondering why I have been quiet.

I am 90% sure I have a breakthrough covid case. I am waiting on test results. It is miserable but fortunately the symptoms are mild so far. It has been a cycle of fever followed by the fever breaking and starting over again. Also a mild sore throat but a lot of pain when swallowing. That pain has lessened in the last day so I can do more than force down water and medication now. Also have general fatigue, headache, and body aches. I really hope I don’t need to go to the hospital because I have little chance of getting in. If I do need it and get in I am refusing intubation and signing a DNR order. I am not eager to live under the conditions that usually follow those procedures. Plus maybe voluntarily dying more quickly instead of taking a bed that could save someone else might get me bumped up to the Terrestrial.

I know I have a low chance of it getting bad. Then again, I play enough games that I know that dice hit improbable results often enough that discounting it happening is mindless optimism.

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

In case anyone is wondering why I have been quiet.

I am 90% sure I have a breakthrough covid case. I am waiting on test results. It is miserable but fortunately the symptoms are mild so far. It has been a cycle of fever followed by the fever breaking and starting over again. Also a mild sore throat but a lot of pain when swallowing. That pain has lessened in the last day so I can do more than force down water and medication now. Also have general fatigue, headache, and body aches. I really hope I don’t need to go to the hospital because I have little chance of getting in. If I do need it and get in I am refusing intubation and signing a DNR order. I am not eager to live under the conditions that usually follow those procedures. Plus maybe voluntarily dying more quickly instead of taking a bed that could save someone else might get me bumped up to the Terrestrial.

I know I have a low chance of it getting bad. Then again, I play enough games that I know that dice hit improbable results often enough that discounting it happening is mindless optimism.

I feel for you. On two occasions (most recently within the past 1-2 weeks) I was 'certain' I too was positive as my wife has just tested positive. On both occasions I was wrong. I did feel like crud though and worse than I ever remember feeling with the flu. Go figure. Let us know what the results are. : )

[Calm]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

In case anyone is wondering why I have been quiet.

I am 90% sure I have a breakthrough covid case. I am waiting on test results. It is miserable but fortunately the symptoms are mild so far. It has been a cycle of fever followed by the fever breaking and starting over again. Also a mild sore throat but a lot of pain when swallowing. That pain has lessened in the last day so I can do more than force down water and medication now. Also have general fatigue, headache, and body aches. I really hope I don’t need to go to the hospital because I have little chance of getting in. If I do need it and get in I am refusing intubation and signing a DNR order. I am not eager to live under the conditions that usually follow those procedures. Plus maybe voluntarily dying more quickly instead of taking a bed that could save someone else might get me bumped up to the Terrestrial.

I know I have a low chance of it getting bad. Then again, I play enough games that I know that dice hit improbable results often enough that discounting it happening is mindless optimism.

Please check in frequently if you feel up to it.