Covid III: Delta Force

[Harry T. Clark]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

They blurred out all the patients here or otherwise blocked faces. It was a very respectful treatment. The staff is obviously emotionally invested and impacted. The usual stoically smiling nurses I am used to see are quite somber. 
 

https://www.kgw.com/mobile/video/news/health/coronavirus/what-its-like-inside-ohsus-icu-overwhelmed-by-covid-19-patients/283-ad41ecdf-a5ed-436e-9b0a-dce3a29f6a4f?jwsource=cl

Now we need one showing the consequences of working at capacity or worse for the nonCovid patients…maybe you are convinced Covid itself is no big deal, the odds are in your favour, but do you feel that way about everything else?

Get vaccinated. Get a good mask and wear it (preferably Kn95 or n95). If not in smoky areas, visit while outdoors. 

Why are you so worried whether or not an unvaccinated person gets vaccinated or not?  The vaccine doesn't stop the spread, only lessens symptoms, supposedly.  To vaccinate or not won't have any effect on you or anyone else, as you, a vaccinated person, could just as easily spread the disease as anyone.  I already had covid, my family had it, and so did my elderly parents.  According to the articles included herein, we should have pretty good immunity.  Our immune systems still work and now these systems have adapted to covid and the variants. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34067349/

https://insight.jci.org/articles/view/146316

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/373/6556/eabh1766?utm_campaign=SciMag&utm_source=Social&utm_medium=Twitter

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/ebiom/article/PIIS2352-3964(21)00203-6/fulltext

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Harry T. Clark

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Why are you so worried whether or not an unvaccinated person gets vaccinated or not? 

Because there are plenty who haven’t had Covid yet or who have it badly when reinfected.

But mostly because I see no glory or nobility in unnecessary suffering that can justify the pain, especially when parents with young children are dying.  

As a child with a chronically ill parent and a parent myself who has been chronically ill, I don’t see any reason to make children’s lives harder.  The natural world and just being human provides more than enough opportunities for personal growth from having obstacles in one’s life.  
 

And as the studies bsjkki is putting up, it appears the best immunity is likely to come from a mix of natural and vaccine immunity.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Calm

[Raingirl]

27 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Why not?  Shouldn't we put a spotlight on the bad behavior?  If this family is as you say, then showing their bad example would possibly help others to avoid their mistakes.  Perhaps some that view this site don't even realize that their similar behavior is so risky and uncouth.  Showing the bad example could perhaps be a teaching moment for these lost right-wingers.

Given your false information regarding Covid here, along with your personal attacks, I have no doubt you would actually support their behavior. Regardless, I wouldn’t give a link to anyone. But especially not you. 

[Harry T. Clark]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

Given your false information regarding Covid here, along with your personal attacks, I have no doubt you would actually support their behavior. Regardless, I wouldn’t give a link to anyone. But especially not you. 

Please show me where I have given false information.  I have given information from doctors and scientists that disagree with the media/pharmaceutical narrative that vaccines are the only solution.  That simply isn't true.  The alternatives have been researched and studied just as long as the vaccines have, if not more.  We are gearing up for booster shots because the first two haven't worked and might have been instrumental in causing the virus to mutate.  Yet, due to hysteria of seeing a thankfully small part of the population suffer from this illness, and perhaps a monetary incentive, alternatives are immediately branded as "false" and then cheerleaders like you enter and use unreasonable language in an attempt to stifle needed debate.  The science is never settled and if you think it is, you should rethink your position.

I bet the supposed reckless pastor you derided is a Dunn like story, invented or exaggerated to support your "noble lie."   You won't give the site because it will be easily picked apart and your exaggerated story will be exposed. 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Why are you so worried whether or not an unvaccinated person gets vaccinated or not?  The vaccine doesn't stop the spread, only lessens symptoms, supposedly.  

Wrong, it often stops the spread. Often the vaccine stops someone from getting the disease. Sometimes they still get it with weaker symptoms and less transmissibility. Someone getting vaccinated means it is less likely they will spread 

The problem is the black and white thinking so many practice. Either a mask blocks all transmission or it is useless. Either a vaccine makes you totally immune or it is useless. That is not how things work.

3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

To vaccinate or not won't have any effect on you or anyone else, as you, a vaccinated person, could just as easily spread the disease as anyone.

Not “just as easily” and it does affect others.

3 hours ago, Harry T. Clark said:

According to the articles included herein, we should have pretty good immunity.  Our immune systems still work and now these systems have adapted to covid and the variants. 

So now you are okay not dealing with certainty and are okay with “pretty good” when vaccination would make it better.

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Please show me where I have given false information.  I have given information from doctors and scientists that disagree with the media/pharmaceutical narrative that vaccines are the only solution.  That simply isn't true.  The alternatives have been researched and studied just as long as the vaccines have, if not more.  We are gearing up for booster shots because the first two haven't worked and might have been instrumental in causing the virus to mutate.  Yet, due to hysteria of seeing a thankfully small part of the population suffer from this illness, and perhaps a monetary incentive, alternatives are immediately branded as "false" and then cheerleaders like you enter and use unreasonable language in an attempt to stifle needed debate.  The science is never settled and if you think it is, you should rethink your position.

WRONG! The alternatives being pushed are largely snake oil. The research is shoddy and generally concludes they don’t work. The vaccines DO!

We are gearing up for booster shots because they are working and we want them to work better.

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

I bet the supposed reckless pastor you derided is a Dunn like story, invented or exaggerated to support your "noble lie."   You won't give the site because it will be easily picked apart and your exaggerated story will be exposed. 

There are dozens of similar stories out there. 

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/pastor-40-infected-coronavirus-church-event-72006518

https://abcnews.go.com/US/oregon-church-close-covid-19-outbreak-infected-74/story?id=77589355

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/coronavirus/article252591403.html

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/17/us/idaho-pastor-covid-masks-trnd/index.html

Beyond that the vocal anti-Vaxxer getting Covid and then death-bed repenting when they are dying is practically a cliche at this point. They are generally ignored.

You do have some who go the other way. I read a story a few days ago about a woman who got Covid and was in the ICU and her husband was a Covid denier and decided his wife was a “crisis actor” and if I remember right he filed for divorce.

People are dying now because there aren’t enough staff to let more people into hospitals. We should have this thing contained by now but the United States suffers from having about a third of its population routinely denying objective truth/reality and seem hell-bent on doing everything possible to make sure the virus kills as many people as possible. If they weren’t spreading the disease to others not part of the cult I admit I would be tempted to urge them on so they can hurry up and kill themselves off but they are taking so many people down with them.

[Harry T. Clark]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

If they weren’t spreading the disease to others not part of the cult I admit I would be tempted to urge them on so they can hurry up and kill themselves off but they are taking so many people down with them.

Maybe you should take a step back and reflect on this?  You know, faith, hope, charity and love ....  I hope you really don't want people to die simply because they go against your black and white narrative.

[Harry T. Clark]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wrong, it often stops the spread. Often the vaccine stops someone from getting the disease. Sometimes they still get it with weaker symptoms and less transmissibility. Someone getting vaccinated means it is less likely they will spread 

Talk to CDC director Dr. Walensky about this.  She has a different opinion.  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

Here is what she says in the article: 

Quote

"They continue to work well with delta with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

 

[Metis_LDS]

9 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

"They continue to work well with delta with regard to severe illness and death, but what they can't do anymore is prevent transmission."

WOW!  I guess then I will be staying home a lot more.  With this and the six month booster shot I want a better vaccine.  I had the Astra Zeneca turns out now better than nothing.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Metis_LDS

[Harry T. Clark]

We should continue to look to other treatments and cures and not put all of our eggs in a vaccine basket.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33578014/

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Talk to CDC director Dr. Walensky about this.  She has a different opinion.  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

Here is what she says in the article: 

 

While it is true that vaccinated people can transmit the Delta variant (unlike previous variants) - hence the mask recommendation - what your political site failed to mention is the fact that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected and transmit the virus.

Also, we should all be concerned about the hospital situation right now.  Vaccinations are our greatest hope to reduce transmission and severe infection needing hospitalization.  
 

Just ask any ICU doc why hospitals are past capacity. 

Edited August 22, 2021 by pogi

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Maybe you should take a step back and reflect on this?  You know, faith, hope, charity and love ....  I hope you really don't want people to die simply because they go against your black and white narrative.

Hence why I said I am tempted to that perspective and not that I embrace it. It is a ‘black and white’ narrative. Some people believe lies and are getting people KILLED, as in dead (cue dead parrot sketch). Others are trying to follow facts and the proven methodology we have developed to fight disease. There is no ‘truth is somewhere in the middle’ compromise here.

44 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Talk to CDC director Dr. Walensky about this.  She has a different opinion.  https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2021/08/06/cdc_director_vaccines_no_longer_prevent_you_from_spreading_covid.html#!

Here is what she says in the article: 

 

Yes, the vaccine does not “prevent” it. It is not a guarantee. It DOES mitigate the chances of spreading it. It substantially mitigates it. Are you seriously trying to harangue me about black and white thinking while not understanding this distinction?

34 minutes ago, Harry T. Clark said:

We should continue to look to other treatments and cures and not put all of our eggs in a vaccine basket.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33578014/

We are not putting all our eggs anywhere. The VACCINES WORK!!! Death and hospitalization rates amongst the vaccinated plummet. 

Of course people around the world are investigating more therapeutic treatments. This is not an “either/or” scenario. We can get vaccines and continue to test new therapies for those who still develop Covid symptoms. We have scores of studies supporting the efficacy of the vaccines. One study in Mexico about an alternative treatment does not mean we should throw out the vaccines and put our hopes all in one study that needs to be replicated and evaluated before it is commonly used.

I have a cynical suspicion that you are touting this study over dozens of others because it contains Ivermectin and not because you have done a thorough review of medical studies and this one looks the most promising. There is a cult-like obsession with proving that the drugs that snake oil salesmen are touting are effective. This is more about ‘being right’ and less about ‘becoming right’ by following the data. It is turning the pandemic into a team sport while poison control hotlines around the country are being overrun with callers poisoning themselves with Ivermectin. One team wants the pandemic to end and the other wants to ‘win’.

There are people I care about who could literally die and that death may have been preventable if these lies were not being spread and getting people to work for the virus instead of against it. Death cultists everywhere.

Edited August 22, 2021 by The Nehor

[Ipod Touch]

28 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There are people I care about who could literally die

All of us have those people.

They should A) get vaccinated and/or B) self-isolate and social distance.

Why are we removing responsibility from people to protect their own health?

[Harry T. Clark]

40 minutes ago, pogi said:

While it is true that vaccinated people can transmit the Delta variant (unlike previous variants) - hence the mask recommendation - what your political site failed to mention is the fact that vaccinated people are less likely to get infected and transmit the virus.

Take a look again and maybe listen to the interview with Dr. Walensky.  She mentions your points.  Also take a look at the quote in my post where Dr. Walensky claims the vaccines are effective.  The site mentions what you say it doesn't.  Nice try though.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, Ipod Touch said:

All of us have those people.

They should A) get vaccinated and/or B) self-isolate and social distance.

Why are we removing responsibility from people to protect their own health?

Because what others do can literally kill them. Treating this pandemic as a purely individual matter where everyone is entirely responsible for their own safety is stupid. It is why our ICUs are overflowing. If my nephew has an accident and is badly hurt will he be able to get into a hospital? If my dad has a heart attack? If my sister is in a car accident? Even if you vaccinate and isolate the actions of others who live in a fantasy world are directly diminishing the survival odds of so many people. They are also making the pandemic last longer which diminishes quality of life for everyone.

It is curious that many of the same people who used to tout “personal responsibility” suddenly abandon that doctrine when their careless actions are directly harming others and insist that it is the personal responsibility of others not to get hurt by said careless actions ‘not my fault, you should just be more careful’.

[Ipod Touch]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Because what others do can literally kill them.

Maybe.  But so can a drunk driver or literally any number of dumb things other people choose to do.

But they have the means to minimize their risk via vaccination and self-isolation/distancing.  If someone is high risk, they should protect themselves because they can't control what other people do or don't do.  It is about being pragmatic.

 

[Ipod Touch]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

the same people who used to tout “personal responsibility” suddenly abandon that doctrine

Part of personal responsibility is accepting the consequences of choice.  It is sad to see so many people needlessly become incredibly ill with Covid.  But that's their choice and I support their freedom to make unwise choices.  And, if i recall my Mormon Doctrine correctly, coming to earth was all about the freedom to make choices -- good or bad.  And that it was a plan to compel others to make good choices that was rejected.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Maybe.  But so can a drunk driver or literally any number of dumb things other people choose to do.

But they have the means to minimize their risk via vaccination and self-isolation/distancing.  If someone is high risk, they should protect themselves because they can't control what other people do or don't do.  It is about being pragmatic.

 

Yes, but this falls under the “No duh” category and is not what I was talking about.

[Ipod Touch]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, but this falls under the “No duh” category 

Not really.  This is a new drug and type of treatment.  Past experience shows that new treatments commonly reveal side effects years after their initial release.  But for the vaccine, none of us have any legal recourse if we do develop any problems 10 or 20 years from now.  To say that fear of long-term impact on a brand new drug/treatment as "no duh", is silly.  This isn't like the polio vaccine which has been around for 70 decades and where we have absolute confidence in its safety.  

I took the vaccine but I won't look down on anyone who chooses not to do so.

[Harry T. Clark]

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is a ‘black and white’ narrative.

 

39 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is not an “either/or” scenario

Which is it?

 

40 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I have a cynical suspicion that you are touting this study over dozens of others because it contains Ivermectin and not because you have done a thorough review of medical studies and this one looks the most promising. There is a cult-like obsession with proving that the drugs that snake oil salesmen are touting are effective. This is more about ‘being right’ and less about ‘becoming right’ by following the data. It is turning the pandemic into a team sport while poison control hotlines around the country are being overrun with callers poisoning themselves with Ivermectin. One team wants the pandemic to end and the other wants to ‘win’.

Projecting again? Anyone who disagrees with vaccine worship is branded a terrorist, eh?

Not everyone is like your hillbilly examples from Mississippi regarding ivermectin (but exaggerating for effect is part of the noble lie, right).  There are a lot of doctors around the world who are researching ivermectin.  https://trialsitenews.com/top-yale-doctor-researcher-ivermectin-works-including-for-long-haul-covid/ 

By the way, I am vaccinated.  My family is vaccinated.  My 12 year old just got her meningitis and tetanus shots the other day.  But I question this vaccine because it was rushed to market and the world over-exaggerated this.  We don't know if covid or the flu caused a lot of the deaths last year as the PCR test can't differentiate between the two and the flu mysteriously disappeared.  Then the CDC recently admitted that the PCR test isn't a good test precisely because it cannot differentiate between the flu and covid.   https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

Incidentally, what do you make of Australia and New Zealand going full lock down due to a small number of cases?  Is that an over-reaction?  Seems to be.

[The Nehor]

14 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

Not really.  This is a new drug and type of treatment.  Past experience shows that new treatments commonly reveal side effects years after their initial release.  But for the vaccine, none of us have any legal recourse if we do develop any problems 10 or 20 years from now.  To say that fear of long-term impact on a brand new drug/treatment as "no duh", is silly.  This isn't like the polio vaccine which has been around for 70 decades and where we have absolute confidence in its safety.  

I took the vaccine but I won't look down on anyone who chooses not to do so.

MRNA vaccines have been used for some time.

The idea that there is no legal recourse is WRONG! There is a way to get financial compensation for complications from vaccines and it is easier than suing a pharmaceutical company. Back during the Reagan administration the federal government took over paying for complications for all vaccines.

Stop trusting whoever told you that. They are liars.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Which is it?

Those were two different things. I think you know that though. Still, you went with the smug nonsensical rhetorical point.

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Projecting again? Anyone who disagrees with vaccine worship is branded a terrorist, eh?

Believing a vaccine works as well as it actually does is idolatry now?

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Not everyone is like your hillbilly examples from Mississippi regarding ivermectin (but exaggerating for effect is part of the noble lie, right).  There are a lot of doctors around the world who are researching ivermectin.  https://trialsitenews.com/top-yale-doctor-researcher-ivermectin-works-including-for-long-haul-covid/ 

Yes, there are doctors researching literally hundreds of drugs.

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

By the way, I am vaccinated.  My family is vaccinated.  My 12 year old just got her meningitis and tetanus shots the other day.  But I question this vaccine because it was rushed to market and the world over-exaggerated this.  We don't know if covid or the flu caused a lot of the deaths last year as the PCR test can't differentiate between the two and the flu mysteriously disappeared.  Then the CDC recently admitted that the PCR test isn't a good test precisely because it cannot differentiate between the flu and covid.   https://www.cdc.gov/csels/dls/locs/2021/07-21-2021-lab-alert-Changes_CDC_RT-PCR_SARS-CoV-2_Testing_1.html

That you are vaccinated doesn’t matter. You are still spreading misinformation.

The flu/covid being mixed up thing is a myth that has been debunked over and over again. It is a lie that the tests were reporting both flu and Covid as positives and that they were marking them all as Covid.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/pcr-test-recall-can-the-test-tell-the-difference-between-covid-19-and-the-flu

The previous test only detected Covid. They switched to a better test that can test for both influenza and covid and identify each. The previous test did not detect the flu at all and did not report the flu as covid. Lies on top of lies.

1 hour ago, Harry T. Clark said:

Incidentally, what do you make of Australia and New Zealand going full lock down due to a small number of cases?  Is that an over-reaction?  Seems to be.

New Zealand is the gold standard on containment. They are largely open except for occasional shutdowns when cases get into “the wild”. Their case, hospitalization, and death totals are all very low. They also generally are living unrestricted lives outside of the occasional lockdown. People should emulate them in future pandemics. They were incredibly bad at vaccine ordering. They are behind on vaccination because the supply is so low. That should correct by the end of the year.

New Zealand has had 26 deaths TOTAL. The US has around 20 times that number of deaths a day right now and that is going to increase as well with the recent surge of hospitalizations. If it is an overreaction it worked. They are almost entirely unscathed. The US recently passed 625,000 total deaths from Covid and that number is still going up.

Looking down on New Zealand’s response would, in my opinion, be evidence of insanity.

I haven’t followed Australia closely enough to comment. They followed a similar path but not nearly as strictly and with less success. Still better than the U.S. but that is not saying much.

Edited August 22, 2021 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

24 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Those were two different things. I think you know that though. Still, you went with the smug nonsensical rhetorical point.

Believing a vaccine works as well as it actually does is idolatry now?

Yes, there are doctors researching literally hundreds of drugs.

That you are vaccinated doesn’t matter. You are still spreading misinformation.

The flu/covid being mixed up thing is a myth that has been debunked over and over again. It is a lie that the tests were reporting both flu and Covid as positives and that they were marking them all as Covid.

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/pcr-test-recall-can-the-test-tell-the-difference-between-covid-19-and-the-flu

The previous test only detected Covid. They switched to a better test that can test for both influenza and covid and identify each. The previous test did not detect the flu at all and did not report the flu as covid. Lies on top of lies.

New Zealand is the gold standard on containment. They are largely open except for occasional shutdowns when cases get into “the wild”. Their case, hospitalization, and death totals are all very low. They also generally are living unrestricted lives outside of the occasional lockdown. People should emulate them in future pandemics. They were incredibly bad at vaccine ordering. They are behind on vaccination because the supply is so low. That should correct by the end of the year.

New Zealand has had 26 deaths TOTAL. The US has around 20 times that number of deaths a day right now and . That is going to increase as well. If it is an overreaction it worked. They are almost entirely unscathed. The US recently passed 625,000 total deaths from Covid and that number is still going up.

Looking down on New Zealand’s response would, in my opinion, be evidence of insanity.

I haven’t followed Australia closely enough to comment. They followed a similar path but not nearly as strictly and with less success. Still better than the U.S. but that is not saying much.

Can't agree more!

[Ipod Touch]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The idea that there is no legal recourse is WRONG! There is a way to get financial compensation for complications from vaccines and it is easier than suing a pharmaceutical company

I read the documents I signed before receiving the vaccine.  I have no legal recourse against the manufacturers.  And frankly, I don't trust the government to compensate people fairly.  call me crazy

[Robert J Anderson]

8 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I read the documents I signed before receiving the vaccine.  I have no legal recourse against the manufacturers.  And frankly, I don't trust the government to compensate people fairly.  call me crazy

Did you have an adverse reaction?  If so, sorry to hear.  Anyway, I was looking online and saw this article from the LA Times.  It says that covid vaccine injuries aren't covered by the vaccine court but are by an obscure program (Countermeasures Injury Compensation Program) that has yet to compensate anyone.  https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-08-17/severe-covid-vaccine-injuries-help-federal-vaccine-court

Here is the website for the program that is supposed to help. https://www.hrsa.gov/cicp

I don't know if it is easier than suing a pharmaceutical company as the guy above said.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Robert J Anderson

[Ipod Touch]

3 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Did you have an adverse reaction?

Nope.  Nothing out of the usual.  A couple of days of feeling sore/ill.  Then back to normal.  I did get covid after having received the vaccine but it was only a couple of days of being sick.  So it seems that for me, the vaccine didn't prevent infection but it made my illness pretty mild.  And given my risk factors, I think I made out pretty well.  

I support and promote the vaccine.  But I oppose efforts to force people to take an experimental medicine.  As I mentioned above, this is quite different from the polio or other vaccines that we've been taking for decades.  It is no unreasonable to think there are a lot of unknowns re: the vaccine.  And so I blame no one for being skeptical and taking a wait-and-see approach.  Do I think they are making a mistake?  Yep.  Especially if they are at high risk -- which most Americans are because we are a bunch of land whales.