Covid III: Delta Force

[Rain]

18 hours ago, why me said:

One of problems that is serious is that the FDA has not approved the vaccines yet.

It would be interesting to see approvals by different organizations in different countries.  I know the insulin pump I want is taking longer to approve here than it did in the UK.  Also a medicine for preclampsia is used quite a bit in Europe (or at least was 20 years ago when I had my last child).  It had fewer side effects than the one commonly used in the US  but it wasn't FDA approved.

So I just wonder how much of the world has used their regular way to approve meds and have approved the vaccines that way.

18 hours ago, why me said:

This is a major obstacle. Can one imagine what would happen if they don't approve the vaccine? Chaos. And the antivaccers would be smiling from ear to ear. I have no idea why they are taking so long to approve the vaccines. They may just save lives when they do since the hot air in the antivaccer balloon would be let out. But if they don't approve them....there will be trouble.

 

 

[bsjkki]

Fascinating visual presentation of Covid clusters in Singapore. You can click on each dot and see case details.

https://covid.viz.sg/historic.html

 

[pogi]

On 8/8/2021 at 9:53 AM, why me said:

One of problems that is serious is that the FDA has not approved the vaccines yet. This is a major obstacle. Can one imagine what would happen if they don't approve the vaccine? Chaos. And the antivaccers would be smiling from ear to ear. I have no idea why they are taking so long to approve the vaccines. They may just save lives when they do since the hot air in the antivaccer balloon would be let out. But if they don't approve them....there will be trouble.

They have to follow the same strict protocols that they follow with all other vaccines.  What would be even more damaging to the credibility of these agencies is if they cut corners to get the vaccine approved more rapidly, then later have to back track due to emerging unknown and previously unseen side-effects.  That would give antivaccers an even bigger smile. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by pogi

[Rain]

@pogi have you seen any petechiae in those who have covid  which you have talked to?

Edited August 9, 2021 by Rain

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

@pogi have you seen any petechiae in those who have covid  which you have talked to?

Yes, I did hear it reported more rarely.  Most lay people don't know what that even is to self report it though.  I did hear rash reported fairly regularly, but not as common as other symptoms.  Without doing a visual assessment, I would guess that a fraction of those "rashes" were petechiae. 

Edited August 9, 2021 by pogi

[SeekingUnderstanding]

On 8/7/2021 at 6:57 PM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It sure seems like someone could check pretty easy. Get a sick person. Put a mask on her and do some air sampling? I guess it must not be that easy?

Here is a link to an epa study that is pretty fantastic. It looks at different masks ability to protect the wearer from airborne particles that assume the virus is airborne and not carried by droplets. 
 

This study runs counter to the narrative that I have heard that masks really only benefit others (protecting them from you). 
 

https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/epa-researchers-test-effectiveness-face-masks-disinfection-methods-against-covid-19
 

Edited August 9, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Here is a link to an epa study that is pretty fantastic. It looks at different masks ability to protect the wearer from airborne particles that assume the virus is airborne and not carried by droplets. 
 

This study runs counter to the narrative that I have heard that makes really only benefit others protecting them from you. 
 

https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/epa-researchers-test-effectiveness-face-masks-disinfection-methods-against-covid-19
 

Fantastic!

I am surprised at how effective some of these simple modifications are.  

[Rain]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Yes, I did hear it reported more rarely.  Most lay people don't know what that even is to self report it though.  I did hear rash reported fairly regularly, but not as common as other symptoms.  Without doing a visual assessment, I would guess that a fraction of those "rashes" were petechiae. 

Thanks.   Can you see a difference in testing with someone having the vaccine and getting covid - if they have had the vaccine and then later get covid do the test results show you both had the vaccine and that you once had covid?

 

[juliann]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Here is a link to an epa study that is pretty fantastic. It looks at different masks ability to protect the wearer from airborne particles that assume the virus is airborne and not carried by droplets. 
 

This study runs counter to the narrative that I have heard that masks really only benefit others (protecting them from you). 
 

https://www.epa.gov/sciencematters/epa-researchers-test-effectiveness-face-masks-disinfection-methods-against-covid-19
 

Were they testing masks, or people wearing masks? What about viral loads? There is very little info in this which makes me suspicious. Because the problem is not just the material but the fit and gaps. 

I prefer this pre-Covid New Zealand study, before the political pressure about masks, https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577. That and warnings about protecting yourself from smoky air with KN95 masks because cloth masks let smoke through. 

Quote

 

Results The rates of all infection outcomes were highest in the cloth mask arm, with the rate of ILI statistically significantly higher in the cloth mask arm (relative risk (RR)=13.00, 95% CI 1.69 to 100.07) compared with the medical mask arm. Cloth masks also had significantly higher rates of ILI compared with the control arm. An analysis by mask use showed ILI (RR=6.64, 95% CI 1.45 to 28.65) and laboratory-confirmed virus (RR=1.72, 95% CI 1.01 to 2.94) were significantly higher in the cloth masks group compared with the medical masks group. Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97% and medical masks 44%.

Conclusions This study is the first RCT of cloth masks, and the results caution against the use of cloth masks. This is an important finding to inform occupational health and safety. Moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration may result in increased risk of infection. Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally. However, as a precautionary measure, cloth masks should not be recommended for HCWs, particularly in high-risk situations, and guidelines need to be updated.

 

 

[pogi]

28 minutes ago, juliann said:

Were they testing masks, or people wearing masks? What about viral loads? There is very little info in this which makes me suspicious. Because the problem is not just the material but the fit and gaps. 

I prefer this pre-Covid New Zealand study, before the political pressure about masks, https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577. That and warnings about protecting yourself from smoky air with KN95 masks because cloth masks let smoke through. 

 

The study seekingunderstand posted tested not just the material but the fit.  They showed the efficacy of the same mask and same fabric used with different fits (with aluminum nose bridge vs without, etc.).  A weakness of the New Zealand study you mention is that it lumps all "fabric masks" into one group, whereas the study seekingunderstanding posted shows different efficacy levels in different types of fabric and weaves etc. 

[pogi]

58 minutes ago, Rain said:

Thanks.   Can you see a difference in testing with someone having the vaccine and getting covid - if they have had the vaccine and then later get covid do the test results show you both had the vaccine and that you once had covid?

 

If you are talking about antigen tests, they only detect if the virus is present.  It wont let me know if you have been vaccinated or not.  

If you are talking about antibody tests, it is a little more tricky.  There are some antibody tests that only detect antibodies created from infection from a wild virus and wont detect antibodies from vaccine.  Others might detect both and can't decipher the two. 

 

[Rain]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you are talking about antigen tests, they only detect if the virus is present.  It wont let me know if you have been vaccinated or not.  

If you are talking about antibody tests, it is a little more tricky.  There are some antibody tests that only detect antibodies created from infection from a wild virus and wont detect antibodies from vaccine.  Others might detect both and can't decipher the two. 

 

Thanks.  Yes, the antibody tests were what I wondered.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, pogi said:

wild virus

As opposed to a civilized and cultured one, I suppose?  

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[pogi]

47 minutes ago, Calm said:

As opposed to a civilized and cultured one, I suppose?  

Civilized, not so much, but "cultured" (not the same use of the term you were thinking of though) is actually the correct term for live attenuated viruses - as opposed to wild viruses   

Edited August 9, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Civilized, not so much, but "cultured" (not the same use of the term you were thinking of though) is actually the correct term for live attenuated viruses - as opposed to wild viruses   

I punned…it was intentional, I am mildly giggling at my cleverness.   

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, juliann said:

Were they testing masks, or people wearing masks? What about viral loads? There is very little info in this which makes me suspicious. Because the problem is not just the material but the fit and gaps. 

I prefer this pre-Covid New Zealand study, before the political pressure about masks, https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/5/4/e006577. That and warnings about protecting yourself from smoky air with KN95 masks because cloth masks let smoke through. 

 

In addition to pogi’s clarification, these studies look like they are saying the same thing. In the study I linked to, an N95 mask blocked 98.4 percent of the contamination. Your study showed that healthcare workers were 13 times as likely to be infected in a cloth mask.  Scaling 98.4 percent effectiveness  (1.6 percent gets through) by 13 gives about 80 percent effective at blocking pathogens. 
 

Epa efficiency is actually less than your study suggests likely because Covid is airbourne and most respiratory colds and flus are born by droplets. 

Now is 80 percent good enough for heathcare workers in close contact with sick people all day? I’d say not. But effective at significantly reducing infections from short casual interactions? I’d say yes  

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[bsjkki]

 

[pogi]

14 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Now is 80 percent good enough for heathcare workers in close contact with sick people all day? I’d say not. But effective at significantly reducing infections from short casual interactions? I’d say yes  

I’d also note that the efficacy compounds when everyone is wearing a mask.  It equals more masks and layers of filtration for the virus to pass through.

[The Nehor]

Delta Plus is in the US but we still don’t know a ton about it. Some reports suggest it is more contagious than Delta but need more data to know for sure. There is concern that Delta Plus may be more resistant to therapeutic treatment due to the structure of the virus but there is nowhere near enough data to be sure of that. There is no indications I have found that suggest it is more deadly or more likely to “breakthrough” vaccinated people compared to the original Delta.

Looking forward to Delta Plus Premium. I hear it will use 5G.

[bsjkki]

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html?utm_campaign=organic&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=twitter

[Tacenda]

On 8/10/2021 at 7:38 AM, pogi said:

I’d also note that the efficacy compounds when everyone is wearing a mask.  It equals more masks and layers of filtration for the virus to pass through.

Common sense!

[bsjkki]

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210810/New-estimate-of-total-immunity-to-SARS-CoV-2-in-Texas.aspx?__twitter_impression=true
 

 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20210810/New-estimate-of-total-immunity-to-SARS-CoV-2-in-Texas.aspx?__twitter_impression=true
 

 

This really highlights just how terrible the Delta variant is when we consider that nearly 70% of the population has immunity, yet hospitals in Texas are currently overwhelmed and overflowing capacity with Covid patients, yet again.   Could you imagine the desolation and carnage that would have been experienced if the Delta variant hit a 100% immunonaïve population?  The vaccine came just in time and was a "God send" indeed!  It is just so unfortunate that this is needlessly happening with available vaccines and other effective preventative measures available. 

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/08/10/coronavirus-texas-hospitals-icu-beds/

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.axios.com/coronavirus-vaccines-pfizer-moderna-delta-biden-e9be4bb0-3d10-4f56-8054-5410be357070.html?utm_campaign=organic&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=twitter

Just a quick note, the study showed that Moderna was 76% effective against the Delta variant, vs 42% with Pfizer.  I personally received the Moderna vaccine and had a pretty gnarly reaction with the second dose for 1 day.  I noticed that people were having much more mild reactions with the Pfizer vaccine, which seemed to be nearly equally effective at the time.  As a result, I recommended that people get the Pfizer vaccine to reduce risks of side effects.  As things have unfolded, fate has proved my recommendation wrong.  I would now recommend for people to get the Moderna vaccine.  Who knows, maybe the next variant that comes along will prove this recommendation wrong...  This virus sure does keep us on our tippy toes!  

[Hamba Tuhan]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

This really highlights just how terrible the Delta variant is when we consider that nearly 70% of the population has immunity, yet hospitals in Texas are currently overwhelmed and overflowing capacity with Covid patients, yet again.

The study that I linked to above found that, in vitro, naturally acquired antibodies from infections with other variants had almost no effect against the Delta variant.