Fair Dinkum Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, pogi said: What doctrines are being violated or sent "down the river" exactly? I edited those comments. Too harsh, but its a bit duplicitous and hypocritical of the church to teach one thing and then do the complete opposite when its their own business ventures.
Fair Dinkum Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, bluebell said: They enabled Coors to make the alcohol. They had yearly contracts with that buyer alone. They personally profited off of the sale of alcohol, even if they weren't selling it themselves. I don't fault a farmer for selling the product he/she produces to the highest bidder. But equating a farmer that grows grain to a church that teaches a higher moral code as being equivalent seems a bit silly. Not even the same but had the farmer refused to sell to Coors, Coors would have just found another seller, it wouldn't have stopped Coors from making beer at all. But standing on principle or as Pres Hinkley said to Stand for Something by refusing to profit from the sale of adult beverages on its own property would actually send a positive message that we the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saint do have principles and are more interested in standing for something then selling our principles for money. Edited July 12, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
smac97 Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 5 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: lol remember when the non LDS ROTC had to move its command post to UVU due to its commander drinking coffee on campus? I do. Yes. I actually was glad to hear that. Let BYU do its thing, and the Army do its thing. Thanks, -Smac 1
JAHS Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 15 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Again as I stated in my OP I don't care if the church wants to own a hotel, I would only ask for consistency. It's the inconsistency in their messaging that profiting from the sale of alcohol is ok. that's what I have issues with. What are their principles worth these days. Evidentially principles are going very cheaply these days, about the cost of the monthly rent of a hotel bar which I imagine would be several $5 to10,000 a month. Seems pretty cheap for a multibillion dollar corporation to sell their souls for. I do find it interesting that the church can do virtually anything, engage in any business practice and as long as it is the church that is doing it, it is ok with the posters here. That alone tells me a lot about the members of this board. I honestly find that perplexing. So if Hawaii legalizes gambling you'd have no problem with them opening up a casino with BYU-H students dealing cards? It's only your opinion that you think the church is being hypocritical. It is the opinion of others that they are not. You called it the "evils of alcohol consumption". The church has never said the consumption of alcohol is evil. Church members and only church members have simply made a promise to not consume it. Perhaps you should call the church and let them know what you think and maybe, since it is coming from you, they will shut down the bars. 😉 2
Fair Dinkum Posted July 12, 2021 Author Posted July 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, JAHS said: It's only your opinion that you think the church is being hypocritical. It is the opinion of others that they are not. You called it the "evils of alcohol consumption". The church has never said the consumption of alcohol is evil. Church members and only church members have simply made a promise to not consume it. Perhaps you should call the church and let them know what you think and maybe, since it is coming from you, they will shut down the bars. 😉 Actually they have called the consumption of alcohol evil: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?lang=eng&query=alcohol evil&highlight=true&page=1 1
JLHPROF Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 44 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I do find it interesting that the church can do virtually anything, engage in any business practice and as long as it is the church that is doing it, it is ok with the posters here and the lot of you would defend the church because we all know the church can do nothing wrong, right? When have I ever been mistake for part of the "Church can do nothing wrong" crowd? 😄 But I think you're overreaching big time on this one. 4
let’s roll Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 37 minutes ago, JAHS said: It's only your opinion that you think the church is being hypocritical. It is the opinion of others that they are not. This....And btw, as pointed out by Smac, no alcohol is being sold at the hotel adjacent to the PCC, so it’s merely conjecture at this point that alcohol will be sold at the Maui hotel. But if it turns out FD’s “source” is correct and the for profit affiliate of the commercial real estate entity owned by the Church that bought the hotel leases the bar to a third party that sells alcohol, I DON’T see any hypocrisy, but leave FD to find hypocrisy wherever and whenever he chooses. Frankly, I’m not sure how, if one is looking for supposed examples of the Church “profiting from the sale of alcohol” the for profit arm of the Church taking rent from a barkeep is much different than the Church accepting tithing from the Marriott’s liquor sale profits. In sum, I shared my idea in an earlier post (and I think MADD would agree with me), but I, like FD, agree that the Church is free to do as it pleases. And to express another opinion before the issue arises, I would be more than ok with the Church using its agricultural property to grow medical marijuana. In fact I think there are a number of reasons that make it a good idea for them to do so. Edited July 12, 2021 by let’s roll 4
JAHS Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 30 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Actually they have called the consumption of alcohol evil: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/search?lang=eng&query=alcohol evil&highlight=true&page=1 But that's only for church members who have promised not to drink it and by doing so have disobeyed a commandment.. The rest of the world can drink all they want. 3
pogi Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 35 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I edited those comments. Too harsh, but its a bit duplicitous and hypocritical of the church to teach one thing and then do the complete opposite when its their own business ventures. Can you please show me where the church suggests that it is a sin for nonmembers to consume alcohol? If you cannot, where is the duplicity and hypocrisy? The laws that they support in Utah are not Prohibitionist. 3
rodheadlee Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: Is it consistent for a church that teaches its members to avoid even the appearance of evil to profit from the sale of the very product that they teach should be avoided on Sunday? Do you think members should not work in the casinos in Las Vegas or other cities?
smac97 Posted July 12, 2021 Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: I edited those comments. Too harsh, but its a bit duplicitous and hypocritical of the church to teach one thing and then do the complete opposite when its their own business ventures. "duplicitous and hypocritical" also seems a bit "too harsh." YMMV. Thanks, -Smac 2
Fether Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 2 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Maybe a pot dispensary will be next. As long as it's legal and for non-members only...right? This is a question. What separates alcohol, tobacco, and marijuana? Is it just cultural acceptance? Does the church own anything that offers tobacco? I would suspect this has more to do with the smell and affect on furniture and a building than the degree to how bad something is.
Fair Dinkum Posted July 13, 2021 Author Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, pogi said: Can you please show me where the church suggests that it is a sin for nonmembers to consume alcohol? If you cannot, where is the duplicity and hypocrisy? The laws that they support in Utah are not Prohibitionist. I’ll be happy too just as soon as you can show me where LDS prophets, Seers and Revelators claim to be such for only members of the church and not the entire world. Edited July 13, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
CV75 Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: Is it consistent for a church that teaches its members to avoid even the appearance of evil to profit from the sale of the very product that they teach should be avoided on Sunday? Yes. A church that teaches abstinence from alcohol for her members does not hold visitors to, or preach to them, that same standard in every instance (there is a time and a place for everything). For example, in accommodating guests and attendees through a Church-owned enterprise, accommodations and investment opportunities may be reasonably recouped. As long as the Church is not producing and marketing alcoholic products for sale and profit, I believe she is being consistent with her standard for members and considerate for "strangers and foreigners" who are passing through unfamiliar territory (figuratively and literally). This is not serving both God and mammon, it is condescending to making to ourselves friends of mammon (i.e. making friends in the world, and perhaps later they will receive a fulness of what we have to offer spiritually).
JAHS Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 15 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: 1 hour ago, pogi said: Can you please show me where the church suggests that it is a sin for nonmembers to consume alcohol? If you cannot, where is the duplicity and hypocrisy? The laws that they support in Utah are not Prohibitionist. I’ll be happy too just as soon as you can show me where LDS prophets, Seers and Revelators claim be be such for only members of the church and not the entire world. How hard is it to understand that the no alcohol drinking only applies to members who have made promises to not do it. It can also apply to the rest of the world if they want to take the advise but God is not going force the commandment on them. They have their agency to choose and we are not going to take that away from them. 3
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, rodheadlee said: Do you think members should not work in the casinos in Las Vegas or other cities? I don't think there should be a prohibition on it. But I couldn't live with myself if I did. I wouldn't feel like I could take sacrament or attend the temple. But there are plenty of people in all kinds of jobs that go against gospel principles on a regular basis. I know plenty of members with questionable business practices. Edited July 13, 2021 by JLHPROF 1
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 58 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I’ll be happy too just as soon as you can show me where LDS prophets, Seers and Revelators claim be be such for only members of the church and not the entire world. It's pretty clear that those under covenants and those not under covenants are separate issues. And the word of wisdom is not a commandment therefore not a sin to break. However members are under covenant to be obedient. So they follow their priesthood head's instructions. For a member the sin isn't breaking the word of wisdom, it's ignoring the instructions of their head. 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: But there are plenty of people in all kinds of jobs that go against gospel principles on a regular basis. I work for a politician! 3
JLHPROF Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I work for a politician! You have my sympathy. Hopefully that doesn't require any challenge to your gospel principles.
pogi Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: I’ll be happy too just as soon as you can show me where LDS prophets, Seers and Revelators claim be be such for only members of the church and not the entire world. You are going to have to explain your logic to me here. You lost me. I agree, they are prophets for the whole world, so you should listen to them when they say that members are beholden to certain extra-biblical or extra-scriptural covenants which non members are not beholden to. Seriously, if you are claiming hypocrisy, you are going to have to provide the CFR, otherwise retract the accusation. I don’t have to provide any reference to anything before you are obligated to a answer my CFR, as I am not making any claim that is being challenged. The burden is yours. Edited July 13, 2021 by pogi 3
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: You have my sympathy. Hopefully that doesn't require any challenge to your gospel principles. 'For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention ...' 1
Chum Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 3 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: 'For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention ...' It is my experience that a lack of contention can also be of the devil. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 2 minutes ago, Chum said: It is my experience that a lack of contention can also be of the devil. Agreed. I personally find it a very 'interesting' balancing act. 2
secondclasscitizen Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: I guess I could agree with you if the church was consistent across all subjects, platforms and issues but they are not. They were very proactive in denying the free will of the LGBTQ in marriage equality, Against the expansion of cable TV in the early 80's, against the availability of pornography, Imposing dress standards, using their influence to keep gambling out of Utah etc. In fact the church has done just the opposite of what you are suggesting. They are suppressing free will in a multitude of areas that cross all religious and secular boundaries. In the area I live we (members of our stake at the direction of the regional rep) picketed adult book stores in order to cause customers to go elsewhere and get them to shut down for lack of revenue. We did this for months.
Fair Dinkum Posted July 13, 2021 Author Posted July 13, 2021 34 minutes ago, pogi said: You are going to have to explain your logic to me here. You lost me. I agree, they are prophets for the whole world, so you should listen to them when they say that members are beholden to certain extra-biblical or extra-scriptural covenants which non members are not beholden to. Seriously, if you are claiming hypocrisy, you are going to have to provide the CFR, otherwise retract the accusation. I don’t have to provide any reference to anything before you are obligated to a answer my CFR, as I am not making any claim that is being challenged. The burden is yours. So you agree that when they speak, offer advice and issue pronouncements they are speaking to the entire world and not just to church members? Right?
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