Praying for the dead

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Islander said:

Again, you are skirting the argument. Religion frequently degrades over time, and often ends up in corrupted practices rejected by the Lord again and again. I sustain that ANY practice not explicitly revealed by the Lord (like missa pro defunctis) is outside revelation and thus a human invention. When it comes to the worship of God man does not decide and since there is no prescription for such prayers in revelation (ancient or modern), I suggest it finds itself outside of the will of God and thus useless.

That is ridiculous. We decide every day how to worship God. If I want to talk to God about the dead why do you care? If I want to pray for some blessing to come to them what does it matter? God can refuse it but since God refuses requests regarding the living all the time what does it matter? If help for the dead is what is on my mind and is worrying me does some sense of prayer decorum apply? Does God want me to repress that thought as unworthy of what? Him? Me? The gospel?

I have known families that have gotten revelation about suicides. I had a bishop who lost a son and she prayed to understand and God communicated to her something from her son. I don’t believe God is so obsessed with His own dignity that he cavalierly limits what concerns and desires we bring to Him.

[smac97]

On 6/20/2021 at 8:38 AM, Dan McClellan said:

Except this isn't an improvisation, this is a direct and explicit violation of the law. The word translated "strange" in the KJV can refer to something foreign or unrecognizable, but it also means unauthorized or prohibited, and in this case refers to coals from a profane context (rather than a temple context), which is in direct violation of the law.

Huh.  I'm curious as to your thoughts about 1 Nephi 8:28 and 32 (part of Lehi's vision of the Tree of Live) : 

Quote

27 And it was filled with people, both old and young, both male and female; and their manner of dress was exceedingly fine; and they were in the attitude of mocking and pointing their fingers towards those who had come at and were partaking of the fruit.

28 And after they had tasted of the fruit they were ashamed, because of those that were scoffing at them; and they fell away into forbidden paths and were lost.

29 And now I, Nephi, do not speak all the words of my father.

30 But, to be short in writing, behold, he saw other multitudes pressing forward; and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.

31 And he also saw other multitudes feeling their way towards that great and spacious building.

32 And it came to pass that many were drowned in the depths of the fountain; and many were lost from his view, wandering in strange roads.

Do you think the references to "forbidden paths" and "strange roads" were meant to mirror each other?  Such that the latter's usage of "strange" might pertain more to "unauthorized or prohibited?"

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

On 6/21/2021 at 12:07 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Asked the son of my deceased friend, after a year had passed. 

Makes me wonder:

Why dont the missionaries distribute to members somthign like pass-along cards that explain blessings and proxy Temple work? 

I totally suck at explaining these to nonmembers who then understandably decline my offer

I can only guess, but in recent years, the Church of Jesus Christ has come under attack from those who don’t understand the doctrine and character of vicarious work for the dead (or even if they do understand it, determine to distort it for the purpose of weaponizing such distortion). While we are obligated to teach this doctrine along with other aspects of the restored gospel of Christ, it can be difficult-to-impossible to overcome the sophistry of the antagonists within the confines of a pass-along card, so that may not be a good way to convey this teaching. 
 

If you are looking for ways to explain it to your friends, I think there are resources that could be used as a model. I haven’t checked in a long time, but I vaguely recall a page on the Familysearch.org website that explains why the Church engages so extensively in family history. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Warlock]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I can only guess, but in recent years, the Church of Jesus Christ has come under attack from those who don’t understand the doctrine and character of vicarious work for the dead (or even if they do understand it, determine to distort it for the purpose of weaponizing such distortion). While we are obligated to teach this doctrine along with other aspects of the restored gospel of Christ, it can be difficult-to-impossible to overcome the sophistry of the antagonists within the confines of a pass-along card, so that may not be a good way to convey this teaching. 
 

If you are looking for ways to explain it to your friends, I think there are resources that could be used as a model. I haven’t checked in a long time, but I vaguely recall a page on the Familysearch.com website that explains why the Church engages so extensively in family history. 

I enjoy family history

[Islander]

On 6/27/2021 at 8:10 PM, The Nehor said:

That is ridiculous. We decide every day how to worship God. If I want to talk to God about the dead why do you care? If I want to pray for some blessing to come to them what does it matter? God can refuse it but since God refuses requests regarding the living all the time what does it matter? If help for the dead is what is on my mind and is worrying me does some sense of prayer decorum apply? Does God want me to repress that thought as unworthy of what? Him? Me? The gospel?

I have known families that have gotten revelation about suicides. I had a bishop who lost a son and she prayed to understand and God communicated to her something from her son. I don’t believe God is so obsessed with His own dignity that he cavalierly limits what concerns and desires we bring to Him.

The issue is NOT what you think or believe. But rather what GOD has said and revealed about Himself, worship and prayer. The road to apostasy is paved with good intensions. I maintain that whatever has not been revealed in scripture or by direct revelation to the prophets has NOT been condoned by the Lord and is nothing but human invention. Which, of course, you are free to engage in any time. You don't need my permission.

[Islander]

On 6/27/2021 at 4:44 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

I try to be respectful and tolerant of the rites practiced by other religious groups, and I expect them to be respectful and tolerant of LDS practices.  It is all too easy for us to point fingers at them for not doing things the way we do, or for them to point fingers at us (they often term us a "cult") for what they regard as heresy.  We do have a great deal in common with the traditional rites of other parts of Christianity, even if we may do things somewhat differently.  For example, the words and techniques used in communion/eucharist in mainstream Christianity do differ from the LDS, but all are celebrating the body and blood of Jesus during his Atonement.  We can choose to be positive rather than negative about those similar rites.  We need not accuse those others of being "pagan" or of being insincere.  The Brethren have set a good example for us by not attacking those other groups, but rather seeking comity with them.

One might even want to ask what is the actual purpose of a Requiem  (since you allude to it), and whether it is proper to say Requiescat in Pace (RIP, "may he rest in peace") at graveside.  LDS people do have formal funerals and grave dedications, and I have done some myself.  No purpose is served by being unkind to or inconsiderate of those who have just lost loved ones.

The central questionnn should not be what those rites are (God allows them to take many forms), but rather by what authority they are practiced.

Your response moves in several different tangents but it fails to address my position from the beginning. I really do not concern myself with what people do. I just argued that there are practices that fall completely outside of LDS religious orthodoxy, are not found in scripture; ancient or modern, and have never been revealed to the prophets. If that is the case, it is just a human invention with no religious support and, based on scripture, it falls in the barrel of meaningless practices that have been rejected by the Lord from the beginning of time. People go to mediums, card readers, fortune tellers and necromancers looking for answers they "believe" they need, feel entitled to or want, just to apease themselves. I suggest God has revealed ALL that we need to understand about His character, nature, attributes, history with His children, promises and will. Anything else is "shooting beyond the mark" and ultimately serves to deceive ourselves. But, again, people are free to do as they please.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Islander said:

Your response moves in several different tangents but it fails to address my position from the beginning. I really do not concern myself with what people do. I just argued that there are practices that fall completely outside of LDS religious orthodoxy, are not found in scripture; ancient or modern, and have never been revealed to the prophets. If that is the case, it is just a human invention with no religious support and, based on scripture, it falls in the barrel of meaningless practices that have been rejected by the Lord from the beginning of time. People go to mediums, card readers, fortune tellers and necromancers looking for answers they "believe" they need, feel entitled to or want, just to apease themselves. I suggest God has revealed ALL that we need to understand about His character, nature, attributes, history with His children, promises and will. Anything else is "shooting beyond the mark" and ultimately serves to deceive ourselves. But, again, people are free to do as they please.

Within one's own tradition that may all be very well, but the question is whether we need to treat others with tolerance and kindness -- something frequently denied to us by those who are rigid and intolerant.  We live in a pluralistic society, and we need to do more than just give it lip service.  We need to be good neighbors.

[Islander]

On 8/7/2021 at 3:43 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Within one's own tradition that may all be very well, but the question is whether we need to treat others with tolerance and kindness -- something frequently denied to us by those who are rigid and intolerant.  We live in a pluralistic society, and we need to do more than just give it lip service.  We need to be good neighbors.

I certainly understand your viewpoint. However, "true love rejoices in the truth". It is not loving to allow others the fall into heretical practices and potential damnación in order to be "sensitive". It is clear from scripture, and the Savior marked the path in the Sermon of the Mount, we must confront error in order to be faithful to the word of God. 

[JLHPROF]

43 minutes ago, Islander said:

I certainly understand your viewpoint. However, "true love rejoices in the truth". It is not loving to allow others the fall into heretical practices and potential damnación in order to be "sensitive". It is clear from scripture, and the Savior marked the path in the Sermon of the Mount, we must confront error in order to be faithful to the word of God. 

I really am curious why this is such a bugaboo topic for you.  I fail to see why there would be any sin in praying on behalf of anyone, living or dead.  Christ prayed for us before men were born and after men had died.  It's a sign of love, not some pagan rite.

[let’s roll]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:06 PM, Islander said:

The philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. Still, there is absolutely NO scriptural support for the practice

I think the Second Commandment provides ample scriptural support.

[Islander]

21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I really am curious why this is such a bugaboo topic for you.  I fail to see why there would be any sin in praying on behalf of anyone, living or dead.  Christ prayed for us before men were born and after men had died.  It's a sign of love, not some pagan rite.

I really take no issue with what people do, in general. The prayers for the dead is a very old heresy imported from pagan religions (just like most of them that have made their way into Christianity) and is still around. Christ never prayed for the dead. He did pray and clarified in the prayer that His promises to His disciples extended also to future believers (John 17:20) and that was God's will. You seem to be willing to stretch the scripture to give cover to a practice that has NO biblical support. That that was my point fr om the very first post. Again, people are free to do as they please. 

[Islander]

4 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I think the Second Commandment provides ample scriptural support.

The second Commandment forbids worship of man-made things that represent false gods. We usually think of “graven images” as idols, but we can make idols of anything we place before God. This Commandment teaches that nothing should take the place of the personal presence of the Invisible God.

I fail to see how you can draw such conclusion that it would be OK to pray for the dead.

[let’s roll]

1 minute ago, Islander said:

The second Commandment forbids worship of man-made things that represent false gods. We usually think of “graven images” as idols, but we can make idols of anything we place before God. This Commandment teaches that nothing should take the place of the personal presence of the Invisible God.

I fail to see how you can draw such conclusion that it would be OK to pray for the dead.

Wow....I invite you to consider the New Testament which teaches that there are only two commandments and that all other laws flow from those two commandments.  I was referring to the second one.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Islander said:

The second Commandment forbids worship of man-made things that represent false gods. We usually think of “graven images” as idols, but we can make idols of anything we place before God. This Commandment teaches that nothing should take the place of the personal presence of the Invisible God.

I fail to see how you can draw such conclusion that it would be OK to pray for the dead.

I think he meant the second greatest commandment like unto the first. 
 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 22%3A36-40&version=NIV

[JLHPROF]

37 minutes ago, Islander said:

IChrist never prayed for the dead. He did pray and clarified in the prayer that His promises to His disciples extended also to future believers (John 17:20) and that was God's will. You seem to be willing to stretch the scripture to give cover to a practice that has NO biblical support. 

Funny, I missed the part where the intercessory prayer didn't apply to previous dispensations.  Pretty sure it covered everyone.

[JAHS]

45 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

On 6/25/2021 at 8:06 PM, Islander said:

The philosophies of men mingled with scriptures. Still, there is absolutely NO scriptural support for the practice

I think the Second Commandment provides ample scriptural support.

There is no scriptural support against the practice either. So maybe God doesn't care enough about the practice to command against it and He leaves it up to our own righteous desires. I certainly can't imagine it would be an unrighteous desire.

Edited August 9, 2021 by JAHS

[3DOP]

On 6/21/2021 at 10:57 PM, Islander said:

That is a rather generic prayer for the work at large. It is not the same as praying for specific people as the OP described. Te line is not that fine but rather bold.

The issue here is the proverbial slippery slope into strange and unorthodox forms of worship, as it is often the case. Pretty soon, why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)? Why wait until it is buried and out of sight?  There is noting new and there is long history of worship to the dead in human history. Again, I understand the sentiment but I maintain that the practice is not supported in scripture and outside of what God has revealed and ordained. Preserving the integrity of the ordinance is one of the responsibilities of the priesthood. This is why we repeat the Sacrament prayer as many times as we need to get it "right" even if ONE word is out of place. It is that important. 

Hi Islander, I often respect ill-informed anti-Catholic rhetoric.  Truly, ignorant opposition against what we do not believe gives me hope for the souls who are misinformed. But when do you think we "pray with the deceased in the coffin"? I cannot think of what you might be talking about.

Theologically speaking, Catholics deny that hypothetical prayers of the dead...who need the prayers of the living, (because of being not yet glorified), have any efficacy. That is why I ask my question. 

We believe in the communion of saints. Without apology. We ask prayers of those who have passed from this life to the next, to the glory of God. But when do we "pray with the deceased in the coffin"? I like your distinctive black and whiteness, but it seems more like darkness than light in this instance. I am glad that most of your brethren respect the idea of the comfort, that comes to the living, and the possible benefit for those who have passed, from prayers for the dead, not with the dead.

Regards, 

3DOP

[mfbukowski]

25 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Islander, I often respect ill-informed anti-Catholic rhetoric.  Truly, ignorant opposition against what we do not believe gives me hope for the souls who are misinformed. But when do you think we "pray with the deceased in the coffin"? I cannot think of what you might be talking about.

Theologically speaking, Catholics deny that hypothetical prayers of the dead...who need the prayers of the living, (because of being not yet glorified), have any efficacy. That is why I ask my question. 

We believe in the communion of saints. Without apology. We ask prayers of those who have passed from this life to the next, to the glory of God. But when do we "pray with the deceased in the coffin"? I like your distinctive black and whiteness, but it seems more like darkness than light in this instance. I am glad that most of your brethren respect the idea of the comfort, that comes to the living, and the possible benefit for those who have passed, from prayers for the dead, not with the dead.

Regards, 

3DOP

Thanks.

I couldn't possibly have remained as civil as you have here.

But there are people who believe we baptize corpses in our temples. That fact allows me to, in some sense, to understand both Islander's "misunderstanding" and relate strongly with what it took on your part to give a measured response instead of going ballistic as I might have.

I was in pain last week and "lost it" on several posts due my inability to see through the pain and make it invisible, at least to others.

The savior is such a great model for us in this regard.

Thanks for teaching me through your reply

I don't see how our fixation on the dead, in building temples, genealogical research, etc is any different than "praying for the dead".

Go figure.

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[3DOP]

8 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks.

I couldn't possibly have remained as civil as you have here.

But there are people who believe we baptize corpses in our temples. That fact allows me to, in some sense, to understand both Islander's "misunderstanding" and relate strongly with what it took on your part to give a measured response instead of going ballistic as I might have.

I was in pain last week and "lost it" on several posts due my inability to see through the pain and make it invisible, at least to others.

The savior is such a great model for us in this regard.

Thanks for teaching me through your reply

Thanks, Mark.

Pain? It makes us naturally irritable, and therefore, mitigates culpability. I am feeling no pain tonight! No hard feelings for Islander...none in the least. Only good wishes. We are all on journeys and like all things created, we change. Nothing more could I wish than to see you both in the same happy place (along with all of our loved ones) forever...whatever could make that possible.

Rory

 

[Calm]

Maybe he means a Requiem Mass at a funeral?

Quote

A Requiem or Requiem Mass, also known as Mass for the dead (Latin: Missa pro defunctis) or Mass of the dead (Latin: Missa defunctorum), is a Massoffered for the repose of the soul or souls of one or more deceased persons, using a particular form of the Roman Missal. It is usually, but not necessarily, celebrated in the context of a funeral.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem

[mfbukowski]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe he means a Requiem Mass at a funeral?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requiem

It would be odd for us to bless the sacrament at a funeral, but that would be the equivalent. The symbolic power of this practice is to show the commUNION of the congregation of both the living and the dead, as one family in Christ, the union of "all those who partake", on both sides of the veil

It is a  beautiful ceremony, nothing at all like what was alleged.

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

Pretty soon, why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)? Why wait until it is buried and out of sight? 

CFR please that Catholics "pray with the deceased in the coffin".

I want to see where that one came from 

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Islander said:

I certainly understand your viewpoint. However, "true love rejoices in the truth". It is not loving to allow others the fall into heretical practices and potential damnación in order to be "sensitive". It is clear from scripture, and the Savior marked the path in the Sermon of the Mount, we must confront error in order to be faithful to the word of God. 

I think that we can do both.  The Brethren certainly set a good example of how to do that, and to do it with aplomb, whether meeting the Pope and other prelates, or contributing to non-LDS relief efforts (Catholic relief).  I am reminded of the young LDS military officer in charge of producing a new German government after World War II.  In order to satisfy the Bavarian Catholics, he had to have an audience with the Pope to get the Pope's approval for his efforts.  He did it, no problem.  Should he have refused?

[mfbukowski]

On 8/6/2021 at 9:40 PM, Islander said:

The issue is NOT what you think or believe. But rather what GOD has said and revealed about Himself, worship and prayer. The road to apostasy is paved with good intensions. I maintain that whatever has not been revealed in scripture or by direct revelation to the prophets has NOT been condoned by the Lord and is nothing but human invention. Which, of course, you are free to engage in any time. You don't need my permission.

And of course this includes personal revelation.

Next time you need an answer - don't go to the Lord- go to scriptures?

And for that matter why listen to the 15 at all?   How long has it been since something they said was "canonized"?

No, I think the issue IS what has been revealed to us personally is more important than what someone else tells me even if others call him a "prophet".   We could not even know which were true or false prophets if we could not go directly to the Lord- so the whole idea doesn't even make sense.

How could we personally convert to the church unless we found a scripture that says "Mfbukowski- join this church?"   I find that most of these radical statements about prophetic infallibility do not come from converts.   We who are converts KNOW that everything is NOT in scripture or we would not be able to find the church in the first place.

Still waiting for that CFR about Catholics praying in coffins 

[MustardSeed]

Wait, Catholics get in coffins with dead bodies and pray? 
 

🤨

Edited August 9, 2021 by MustardSeed