Praying for the dead

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Wait, Catholics get in coffins with dead bodies and pray? 
 

🤨

That was the implication 

See below

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[bOObOO]

3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

That was the implication 

Looking it up

 

Wait! Wait! You can find all kinds of things on the internet.  I will use reason instead. 

Based on my own life experience and the fact that I have yet to see a coffin built to accommodate 2 bodies at the same time, I would say somebody was making that up.

I mean, sure, somebody may have built one or two 2-person coffins, but to say generally that Catholics get into coffins with dead people to pray for that dead person or some other dead people, as some kind of cultural thing that Catholic people do?

No, I don't buy in to that for a second.  Somebody is either just ignorant or just being silly.

[mfbukowski]

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

The issue here is the proverbial slippery slope into strange and unorthodox forms of worship, as it is often the case. Pretty soon, why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)? Why wait until it is buried and out of sight?  There is noting new and there is long history of worship to the dead in human history.

This is the quote I mentioned above 

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[bOObOO]

...why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)? Why wait until it is buried and out of sight? 

 

I have seen some funeral services where the dead person was in a casket (sometimes open, sometimes not) while the funeral service was conducted.  Casket in the same room with someone who said a prayer or made some comments.

I think this is what he was talking about.

Edited August 9, 2021 by bOObOO

[mfbukowski]

If Heavenly Father really WAS a Man of Holiness in a different universe, and if Jesus only does do what He has seen his Father do, then heavenly Father is a dead exalted human being, as we may become in a few eons.

We worship Heavenly Father and Christ.

Therefore we worship our ancestors who are dead human beings.

Simple logic

 Where do you think all these practices came from?  

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, bOObOO said:

...why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)? Why wait until it is buried and out of sight? 

 

I have seen some funeral services where the dead person was in a casket (sometimes open, sometimes not) while the funeral service was conducted.  Casket in the same room with someone who said a prayer or made some comments.

I think this is what he was talking about.

More than likely. Islander has mentioned he is originally from a communist country and English is therefore likely his second language, though if so I can’t tell from his actual writing since that is an easy mistake for a native speaker to make. English’s flexibility in construction lends itself to making such rather common.  I have to rewrite my sentences all the time to remove similar confusing constructions. No doubt I miss many, especially with my tendency to run on…
 

But it would be best for him to clarify what he means to avoid any possibility of confusion. Also specifically what it is about Catholic prayers that are problematic in his view as it may be a misunderstanding of their beliefs or an accurate representation that might be problematic when looked at through a Latter-day Saint filter.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

More than likely. Islander has mentioned he is originally from a communist country and English is therefore likely his second language, though if so I can’t tell from his actual writing since that is an easy mistake for a native speaker to make. English’s flexibility in construction lends itself to making such rather common.  I have to rewrite my sentences all the time to remove similar confusing constructions. No doubt I miss many, especially with my tendency to run on…
 

But it would be best for him to clarify what he means to avoid any possibility of confusion. Also specifically what it is about Catholic prayers that are problematic in his view as it may be a misunderstanding of their beliefs or an accurate representation that might be problematic when looked at through a Latter-day Saint filter.

Agreed

But  we also have open casket prayers for the family and other purposes regarding robes etc.

 His point still does not make sense

 I have attended LDS open casket funerals.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

More than likely. Islander has mentioned he is originally from a communist country and English is therefore likely his second language, though if so I can’t tell from his actual writing since that is an easy mistake for a native speaker to make.

Cuba would fit all the clues I think.

[strappinglad]

Alma 34: 18-27 gives a list about what to pray about. Do you think it covers all things? If we are to pray over our household , does that exclude those who have passed? 

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Cuba would fit all the clues I think.

He said behind the Iron Curtain. Something that stuck in my head, the contrast of the balmy paradise his alias evokes contrasted with the cold rigidness conveyed by that name, “The Iron Curtain”, for his childhood environment.
 

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72962-we-can-find-common-ground-on-gay-rights-and-religious-liberty/?do=findComment&comment=1209978916

Doesn’t really matter though to the point I was making, which was a suggestion that it was a simple misconstruction of a sentence, easy done…and easily clarified.

Edited August 9, 2021 by Calm

[bOObOO]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

If Heavenly Father really WAS a Man of Holiness in a different universe, and if Jesus only does do what He has seen his Father do, then heavenly Father is a dead exalted human being, as we may become in a few eons.

Except that exalted people are not dead, because becoming exalted involves being resurrected, at which time the spirit is no longer dead/separated from a body, then gaining a perfect immortal body.

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

We worship Heavenly Father and Christ.

Therefore we worship our ancestors who are dead human beings.

Simple logic

Except that I would not use the word dead to refer to a person with a spirit and immortal body. 

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

 Where do you think all these practices came from?  

 

From people who practiced those practices before, wherever they lived.

[bOObOO]

39 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Alma 34: 18-27 gives a list about what to pray about. Do you think it covers all things? If we are to pray over our household , does that exclude those who have passed? 

For me it does, and I have a feeling that my dead ancestors still pray for me too, like they did before they died.  So I still pray for them and they, I am pretty darn sure, are still praying for me.

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

He said behind the Iron Curtain. Something that stuck in my head, the contrast of the balmy paradise his alias evokes contrasted with the cold rigidness conveyed by that name, “The Iron Curtain”, for his childhood environment.
 

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72962-we-can-find-common-ground-on-gay-rights-and-religious-liberty/?do=findComment&comment=1209978916

Doesn’t really matter though to the point I was making, which was a suggestion that it was a simple misconstruction of a sentence, easy done…and easily clarified.

Yes, but still irrelevant.

WE ALSO HAVE OPEN CASKET CEREMONIES AND WE PRAY FOR THE DEAD IN TEMPLES ETC.

So then is he also condemning LDS practices?

Just trying to figure what side this guy is on?

Edited August 9, 2021 by mfbukowski

[bOObOO]

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

The issue here is the proverbial slippery slope into strange and unorthodox forms of worship, as it is often the case.

Were you thinking of something other than praying?  The topic here is praying for the dead and I think as far as prayer goes we can and should pray for anyone/everyone anywhere/everywhere, for any/whatever reason we would like to pray about.

 

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

Pretty soon, why not pray with the deceased in the coffin at Church (as the Catholics do)?

Yes, why not.  Anytime anywhere.  I think you meant more like: why not pray while the mortal body of the deceased is in the coffin at the Church building (as the Catholics do) but if anyone can pray with the spirit of the deceased person in the spirit world, too, then sure, why not.  

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

Why wait until it is buried and out of sight? 

The body, you mean.  Yep, no reason to wait.  You can pray while the body is in sight if you want to even if the spirit has gone on to some other place.  Praying for and with the dead, wherever you or the spirit of that person is.

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

There is noting new and there is long history of worship to the dead in human history.

Worship is all about emulation so if you want to worship/emulate someone who is dead... whose spirit is now separated from his or her mortal body... you can actually do that if you want to.  My mortal Dad is dead now and there are still some things about him that I still like to emulate/worship, while also emulating/worshipping who he worships/emulates.. 

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

Again, I understand the sentiment but I maintain that the practice is not supported in scripture and outside of what God has revealed and ordained.

I disagree.  We are told to pray about essentially everything, and since prayer is essentially about communing and communicating with our Father in heaven to help us know what he feels and thinks about things, we should always want to, anytime, anywhere. 

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

Preserving the integrity of the ordinance is one of the responsibilities of the priesthood.

The ordinance of praying?  We want everyone to pray about everything so that they can have our Father in heaven help them to think about whatever they think about, whatever they want and are trying to accomplish. 

We don't want anyone to not pray about something or someone.

On 6/21/2021 at 8:57 PM, Islander said:

This is why we repeat the Sacrament prayer as many times as we need to get it "right" even if ONE word is out of place. It is that important. 

Meh, it's important if the one praying thinks it is important.  The main point is to try to communicate with our Father in heaven and to try our best to do whatever he wants us to do.

[3DOP]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

He said behind the Iron Curtain. Something that stuck in my head, the contrast of the balmy paradise his alias evokes contrasted with the cold rigidness conveyed by that name, “The Iron Curtain”, for his childhood environment.
 

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72962-we-can-find-common-ground-on-gay-rights-and-religious-liberty/?do=findComment&comment=1209978916

Doesn’t really matter though to the point I was making, which was a suggestion that it was a simple misconstruction of a sentence, easy done…and easily clarified.

Calm...That has to be the situation. To be fair, Islander probably wasn't complaining about our putting ourselves physically into the coffin, but of our prayers for the person in the coffin. He doesn't have our Scriptures. We don't have yours. Language barriers notwithstanding, it is plain from ours that we Catholics believe it is good to pray for the dead, whether their bodies, which will rise again, praise God, be in the coffin at a Requiem Mass or in the ground. Mom's grave is in walking distance. I am glad I was persuaded to bury her here. I hated the thought of Dad thousands of miles away, with a grave stone and Mom missing. I never knew how meaningful it could be to regularly visit a loved one's grave. Affections spring up every time, and Dad gets more prayers with Mom here. He is not abandoned. He is thought of more than ever. It would appear that a consensus of LDS here tend to agree that this is permissible.

"It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."

---2 Maccabees 12:46

This verse was written well over a century before the birth of Christ and even if one doesn't accept it as Scripture, reflects a significant light on the thinking of the Jewish people, who when Christ came, still had valid priestly ordinances. Catholics didn't preserve this text. It came down to us from a militant Judaism that was re-establishing the kingdom of David against a wicked pagan culture. They seem like the good guys to me. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by 3DOP

[Esrom]

On 6/25/2021 at 10:42 PM, Islander said:

One thing I've noted in this forum is that everyone seems quite set in their ways and no matter what the point argued is there is no true intent or ability to actually discuss the subject in a cogent way.

If we can all do whatever we like based on preference or feeling, just because it is not explicitly prohibited in the scriptures, we all soon will be rolling around on the floor "slayed in the spirit" handling snakes or speaking gibberish languages like charismatics down the streets. How about drinking oil from the Temple? It is consecrated and ought to purify us internally and promote health and well being? 

The reason why a person has to be COMPLETELY immersed during the ordinance of baptism, for example, is because the LORD has said so. No matter how many times it HAS to be repeated, it will be so because the LORD has commanded and prescribed how it HAS to be performed. When an ordinance is not observed with precision, over time small changes are introduced and eventually it will no longer resemble the original. You can see that in the apocope that occurs in language over time.

There are some 600 prayers in the bible and none of them are in reference to the dead. Prayer being the primary means of communication with our Heavenly Father, if prayer for the dead was important or necessary, God would have said so. I guess some of you believe improvement in that area is needed when the Lord did not deemed it necessary. The traditions of men are irrelevant when it comes to worship. God decides how He wants to be worshiped and thus anything not prescribed by Him is outside of His approval and blessing. I quoted scripture on the previous post that point to the displeasure of God with strange practices outside of His revelation. But EVERYBODY, conveniently, avoided discussing it and digressed in favor of human commentary and historical anecdotes.

But, have at it. 

Bordering on Legalism here imo.  Praying that deceased loved ones are receptive to the gospel would seem to me to be more aligned with the spirit of the law than the prescribed letter.  Also, I'd like to note that your disdain for intense spiritual experiences seems inconsistent with accounts in the BOM of falling by being overcome by the spirit, and speaking in tongues occurred at Pentecost, as well as in the early days of the church, such as at the Kirtland dedication. 

[Islander]

Talk about ill-informed Catholic. The prayer for the dead a well established Catholics dogma: What exactly is purgatory? The Catechism says, “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification” (1030–1031). That’s precisely why you pray and offer Masses for those in purgatory. As Catholic scripture claims, your intercession helps them: “For it is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Maccabees 12:46, Douay).PT

Again, that is outside LDS theology (wich was my only point of argument) and is NOT supported by scripture, from where I stand.

[Islander]

On 8/9/2021 at 11:58 AM, mfbukowski said:

If Heavenly Father really WAS a Man of Holiness in a different universe, and if Jesus only does do what He has seen his Father do, then heavenly Father is a dead exalted human being, as we may become in a few eons.

We worship Heavenly Father and Christ.

Therefore we worship our ancestors who are dead human beings.

Simple logic

 Where do you think all these practices came from?  

 

Rather circular and skewed, as logic is concerned. Christ and our Heavenly Father are not dead. But again, feel free to do as you please. Everybody alludes to "logic" and history. I remain firm in my point. It is not supported in scripture, from the LDS standpoint. 

 

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, Islander said:

Talk about ill-informed Catholic. The prayer for the dead a well established Catholics dogma: What exactly is purgatory? The Catechism says, “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification” (1030–1031). That’s precisely why you pray and offer Masses for those in purgatory. As Catholic scripture claims, your intercession helps them: “For it is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Maccabees 12:46, Douay).PT

Again, that is outside LDS theology (wich was my only point of argument) and is NOT supported by scripture, from where I stand.

I don't see how this is all that different from baptism for the dead.  In fact the sealing keys specifically allow the binding in heaven of deceased people using words offered as prayer.

Edited August 19, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Islander]

On 8/15/2021 at 9:01 PM, Esrom said:

Bordering on Legalism here imo.  Praying that deceased loved ones are receptive to the gospel would seem to me to be more aligned with the spirit of the law than the prescribed letter.  Also, I'd like to note that your disdain for intense spiritual experiences seems inconsistent with accounts in the BOM of falling by being overcome by the spirit, and speaking in tongues occurred at Pentecost, as well as in the early days of the church, such as at the Kirtland dedication. 

Again, the point I have labored to make is that every current heresy in Christianity is a departure from scriptural orthodoxly and revelation. They are ALL the result of personal belief, erroneous interpretation of the scriptures and/or infusion of pagan practice into the Christian realm. I have made reference to scriptural passages where God makes a clear statement of rejection to a certain practice or event that attempted to change or corrupt the prescribed order. Again and again, people refer to their feelings, beliefs and skewed scripture interpretation to support their position. 

The experience of Pentecost in Acts refers to a foreign language. Others in the room (who came from other lands and spoke other than Aramaic or Hebrew) could understand the Galileans, in their own language. Noting like that happens today. The current "speaking in tongues" is just gibberish, not an actual intelligible language that anybody can understand. No way of knowing whether a satanic manifestation or an emotionally driven mimicking behavior. 

 

[Islander]

9 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't see how this is all that different from baptism for the dead.  In fact the sealing keys specifically allow the binding in heaven of deceased people using words offered as prayer.

If you can't see the difference I can't help you. We know that we are commanded to participate in the ordinance for our dead kindred. But its effect beyond the veil are dependent on God's will and that or the deceased. Our insight into that process is very limited. We participate in the ordinance out of love and obedience rather than theological certainty. Again, we are NOT commanded to pray for the dead anywhere in scripture and such practice does not appear until the 4th century AD.

[3DOP]

55 minutes ago, Islander said:

Talk about ill-informed Catholic. The prayer for the dead a well established Catholics dogma: What exactly is purgatory? The Catechism says, “All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification” (1030–1031). That’s precisely why you pray and offer Masses for those in purgatory. As Catholic scripture claims, your intercession helps them: “For it is . . . a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins” (2 Maccabees 12:46, Douay).PT

Again, that is outside LDS theology (wich was my only point of argument) and is NOT supported by scripture, from where I stand.

I acknowledged that we had different Scriptures. Am I the ill informed Catholic to whom you refer? It is okay if you think so. I just want clarity. I appreciate your zeal better than your fellow LDS, I think. But something is off.

I think there is a language barrier. You misunderstand me and alienate your co-religionists. In all sincerity, you should consider that your English is the problem...I speak one language...and that imperfectly. I greatly admire multi-lingual persons. I wish I knew any language besides English as well as you do English. But in this instance, where everything is in English, I think you are hindered. Precision is necessary, but the tools are lacking.

Edited August 19, 2021 by 3DOP

[3DOP]

31 minutes ago, Islander said:

If you can't see the difference I can't help you. We know that we are commanded to participate in the ordinance for our dead kindred. But its effect beyond the veil are dependent on God's will and that or the deceased. Our insight into that process is very limited. We participate in the ordinance out of love and obedience rather than theological certainty. Again, we are NOT commanded to pray for the dead anywhere in scripture and such practice does not appear until the 4th century AD.

Islander, hi.

You can reject 2 Maccabees as Scripture, but the practise, right or wrong, was clearly acceptable to many long before the 4th Century, even preceding the times of Christ. You are correct in that 2 Maccabees does not command prayers for the dead. But it clearly commends prayers for the dead. 

Are you saying that Christians are prohibited from any activities that are not commanded? 

I am not questioning your canon, as I said above. But I am curious, as a Latter-day Saint, do you think that those who commended prayers for the dead in 2 Maccabees were the bad guys? Agents of Satan? Should Mormons like those the Maccabees opposed, like Antiochus, better instead?

I have not heard that the enemies of the Maccabees prayed for the dead. Perhaps they are the good guys in this saga?

[Esrom]

13 hours ago, Islander said:

The experience of Pentecost in Acts refers to a foreign language. Others in the room (who came from other lands and spoke other than Aramaic or Hebrew) could understand the Galileans, in their own language. Noting like that happens today. The current "speaking in tongues" is just gibberish, not an actual intelligible language that anybody can understand. No way of knowing whether a satanic manifestation or an emotionally driven mimicking behavior. 

 

You are mistaken.  The link below documents 240 incidences of speaking in tongues in the early restoration, which you may be surprised to learn was frequent, and involved church leaders (Brigham and Joseph) as well as the rank and file until it gradually diminished in the early 1900's.  Most of these did not involve speaking a foreign language to cross a language barrier for gospel preaching (which is considered by most members to be the only modern acceptable use of the gift), but involved praying and singing in tongues among English speaking members during worship or blessings.  Often it was believed to be the pure Adamic language, which just might appear to someone as "gibberish".  What does any language sound like to one unfamiliar with it???  Gibberish of course!  

https://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2014/03/chronology-speaking-in-tongues-in.html

Also, the Book of Mormon includes references to speaking in tongues as a gift of the spirit, in the context of conversion, without reference to resolving a language barrier.  Dr. Chris Thomas, a Pentecostal theologian and author of "A Pentecostal reads the Book of Mormon", has commented often on the similarities between spiritual experiences described in the Book of Mormon and those of Pentecostals.

Interestingly, the church website acknowledges two uses of tongues: 1) as an " important" part of worship (that faded out) and for 2) proselytizing to persons speaking a different language:

"Glossalalia continued as an important part of Latter-day Saint worship during the rest of the 19th century, though the practice gradually declined over time and all but disappeared in the early 20th century."

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/gift-of-tongues?lang=eng

I learned a long time ago not to denigrate others' spiritual experiences.  Latter-day Saints don't appreciate being caricatured by others for certain beliefs/practices, so showing respect for others beliefs/practices and  is a two way street.  Can any spiritual gift be mis-used or over emphasized?  Yes.  But that doesn't erase the genuine two-fold use of the gift of tongues, which as I've cited, is acknowledged by the church.  

[MiserereNobis]

19 hours ago, Islander said:

Talk about ill-informed Catholic.

Are you talking about 3DOP? If so, you need to back off. He is a very well informed Catholic. Or are you talking about me? We’re the only regular Catholic posters.