Status of church

[secondclasscitizen]

24 minutes ago, Rain said:

Except by covid case numbers we are not. In March the numbers were about half or less than they are now and headed down off a steep peak.  Right now the numbers are still heading up a more gradual peak.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/arizona-covid-cases.html

I guess I need to be more clear. My ward /stake has not been masked or social distancing since March. We are not being ravaged by COVID at the moment. Time will tell

[The Nehor]

I talked to leaders in other wards in my stake and there is a very disturbing trend. The mask wearers and non-mask wearers are often physically divided as to where they sit in the chapel. From what I am told the only wards that don’t have this problem to some degree are my ward and the Tongan wards. And yes, Covid is hitting people throughout the stake. We did have a testimony that kind of back-handedly said vaccines were unimportant yesterday by talking about Covid and saying that God is in charge as to what happens with it. I am not sure that is what he intended to convey but I was wincing.

[The Nehor]

My ward and the other wards in our building just moved back to cancelling second hour due to a lot of Covid in the wards in the building.

Then we got more specific instructions on what to disinfect. Sounds like the stake didn’t get the memo on how Covid is transmitted and got their operating instructions from early 2020. Either that or this is performative to reassure everyone.

[SteveO]

On 9/6/2021 at 6:21 PM, The Nehor said:

I talked to leaders in other wards in my stake and there is a very disturbing trend. The mask wearers and non-mask wearers are often physically divided as to where they sit in the chapel. From what I am told the only wards that don’t have this problem to some degree are my ward and the Tongan wards. And yes, Covid is hitting people throughout the stake. We did have a testimony that kind of back-handedly said vaccines were unimportant yesterday by talking about Covid and saying that God is in charge as to what happens with it. I am not sure that is what he intended to convey but I was wincing.

I always thought it would be the issue of gay marriage that would be the cause of our sharpest divisions…I think CS Lewis had it right when he imagined the devils debating whether to convince a man to be either a patriot or a pacifist.  In the end, it didn’t matter which, so long as being a patriot or pacifist superseded the importance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the man’s life.

[provoman]

52 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

My ward and the other wards in our building just moved back to cancelling second hour due to a lot of Covid in the wards in the building.

Then we got more specific instructions on what to disinfect. Sounds like the stake didn’t get the memo on how Covid is transmitted and got their operating instructions from early 2020. Either that or this is performative to reassure everyone.

What has been interesting to me is that decisions were left at the local levels.

While I understand people say "The D&C says Bishop have authority" or similar things, all keys come from the First Presidency; so I don't thing it an offence if the First Presidency said "thou shalt conduct your ward meetings in such manor, and will prodcast sacrament meeting"

My ward, in the Salt Lake Temple District, just cancelled in person Second hour.  I think our Stake Conference will be in person and prodcast.

Locally, among the citizens there is so much vocal opposition. Many prents about got upset that a during a science lesson on viruses, that covid was mentioned and getting vaccines for covid was mentioned - the parents claim "Schools should teach science and not politics" (Because viral spread and vaccines are not scientific subjects, but purely politics)

I think, instead of using OSHA, Congress - under the Commerce Clause - has the Constitutional Authority (from the Founders) to enact a National Mask mand on public accommodations and public schools

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, provoman said:

What has been interesting to me is that decisions were left at the local levels.

While I understand people say "The D&C says Bishop have authority" or similar things, all keys come from the First Presidency; so I don't thing it an offence if the First Presidency said "thou shalt conduct your ward meetings in such manor, and will prodcast sacrament meeting"

My ward, in the Salt Lake Temple District, just cancelled in person Second hour.  I think our Stake Conference will be in person and prodcast.

Locally, among the citizens there is so much vocal opposition. Many prents about got upset that a during a science lesson on viruses, that covid was mentioned and getting vaccines for covid was mentioned - the parents claim "Schools should teach science and not politics" (Because viral spread and vaccines are not scientific subjects, but purely politics)

I think, instead of using OSHA, Congress - under the Commerce Clause - has the Constitutional Authority (from the Founders) to enact a National Mask mand on public accommodations and public schools

I can’t figure out what is going on in my stake. It doesn’t look like these wards have more cases of covid than others now that I talked with people in the other wards. Then again the Tongans wards have disproportionately had higher cases. It is one of those rare cases where enthusiastic singing in church may be a liability instead of a benefit.

Congress does have that authority but OSHA has authority to require vaccinations and/or testing for workplace safety. The President does have authority over executive agencies and mandating vaccination in those agencies is within Presidential authority.

Edited September 12, 2021 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

I always thought it would be the issue of gay marriage that would be the cause of our sharpest divisions…I think CS Lewis had it right when he imagined the devils debating whether to convince a man to be either a patriot or a pacifist.  In the end, it didn’t matter which, so long as being a patriot or pacifist superseded the importance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the man’s life.

Yeah, it is strange that this is the division. I think when I am old and kids asks about these days I am going to have trouble explaining the events going on and trying to explain these events. Everything is just so stupid.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, SteveO said:

I always thought it would be the issue of gay marriage that would be the cause of our sharpest divisions…I think CS Lewis had it right when he imagined the devils debating whether to convince a man to be either a patriot or a pacifist.  In the end, it didn’t matter which, so long as being a patriot or pacifist superseded the importance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the man’s life.

Or members doubting more than ever their leaders, and choosing political over their religious beliefs. Oh, I think I just said about what you said perhaps. Or you took it to another level and I'm not saying the same thing. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by Tacenda

[e-eye]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:04 PM, Raingirl said:

While it’s true that some people experience mild symptoms with Covid, for many it’s a devastating illness with long term damage. Then there are the many thousands who don’t survive.  You can’t predict the outcome in any given individual.  Some who are considered high risk have relatively mild cases, some who are young, healthy, and in shape don’t survive.  It’s naive and ignorant to act as if getting Covid is no big deal. 

Because for a majority of people it’s not. I don’t disagree, and as i said, high risk people should be extra cautious.  The numbers don’t lie, if you are healthy the survival rate is extremely high. If you have any high risks those numbers go down. I’m pro vaccine but also okay with people choosing not to. In the end follow those promptings. 

[Calm]

4 hours ago, e-eye said:

high risk people should be extra cautious.  The numbers don’t lie, if you are healthy the survival rate is extremely high

At this point in time, I believe 2/3s of those under 50 in the hospital have no risks save for being unvaccinated. 
 

Bsjkki has been posting most studies lately, maybe she can recall where it is at. 

There is a variety of risks, such as the personal risk you are thinking of apparently, how your own life might change, even be destroyed if you get sick, but there is also extended risk…the tragedy in your life when illness and death hits among your family and friends.

What percentage of risk, how many members of your families, your friends, your neighbours must die before it becomes a big deal for you?

[BlueDreams]

22 hours ago, SteveO said:

I always thought it would be the issue of gay marriage that would be the cause of our sharpest divisions…I think CS Lewis had it right when he imagined the devils debating whether to convince a man to be either a patriot or a pacifist.  In the end, it didn’t matter which, so long as being a patriot or pacifist superseded the importance of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the man’s life.

it makes sense to me a little. Gay marriage doesn’t effect members equally or universally. Most of us will never go to a gay wedding…heck, most people do not have a gay direct relative they’re close to. So a lot of the debate and discussion was hypothetical, as in it didn’t have direct real world consequences for most members. It also already touched on political differences with little cross over (at first). And there were no physical markers one could point to, to indicate one’s position. It’s also easier to maintain mixed views with gay marriage, even if those who debate it are generally extremely polarized (similar to abortion) 

covid is the opposite…it came at a political point where we’ve never been more divided and was turned into something political rather than a state of emergency. It effects everybody’s life and is currently shifting how many people live in several facets.  The biggest effects are far more grave than the worst scenarios surrounding gay marriage. There is a very visible and clear indicator where you fall on the spectrum of “belief” literally right on our faces or in our behavior. 
 

Also for one side especially, there is more a sense of physical threat and/or anxiety over safety around being near those who differ on this topic. 

With luv, 

BD

Edited September 13, 2021 by BlueDreams

[SteveO]

4 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

it makes sense to me a little. Gay marriage doesn’t effect members equally or universally. Most of us will never go to a gay wedding…heck, most people do not have a gay direct relative they’re close to. So a lot of the debate and discussion was hypothetical, as in it didn’t have direct real world consequences for most members. It also already touched on political differences with little cross over (at first). And there were no physical markers one could point to, to indicate one’s position. It’s also easier to maintain mixed views with gay marriage, even if those who debate it are generally extremely polarized (similar to abortion) 

covid is the opposite…it came at a political point where we’ve never been more divided and was turned into something political rather than a state of emergency. It effects everybody’s life and is currently shifting how many people live in several facets.  The biggest effects are far more grave than the worst scenarios surrounding gay marriage. There is a very visible and clear indicator where you fall on the spectrum of “belief” literally right on our faces or in our behavior. 
 

Also for one side especially, there is more a sense of physical threat and/or anxiety over safety around being near those who differ on this topic. 

With luv, 

BD

Be careful where you assign fault for the current state of things though.  I’m double vaxxed myself, but I understand why people are apprehensive about it.  For the near future at least, science, experts, and the medical community have irreparably damaged their credibility.

Why the medical community had an opinion as to the validity of one form of protest over another last year, I’ll neverknow.  But that was the beginning of the end of rationality concerning COVID. 
 

Edit:  It is illustrative though, when everything else is stupid and crazy, there is immense wisdom in following the prophet 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by SteveO

[ksfisher]

12 hours ago, e-eye said:

Because for a majority of people it’s not. I don’t disagree, and as i said, high risk people should be extra cautious.  The numbers don’t lie, if you are healthy the survival rate is extremely high. If you have any high risks those numbers go down. I’m pro vaccine but also okay with people choosing not to. In the end follow those promptings. 

The struggle I have with this is that people choosing not to get vaccinated are impacting the lives of those around them.  They are preventing high risk groups from returning to a more normal life. 

Promptings?  Who would prompt you not to get a vaccine that could save the life of someone around you (or at least take the burden off of overworked health care workers)?

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, SteveO said:

there is immense wisdom in following the prophet 

...who is asking us to follow the medical community, CDC, and local health department guidelines. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by pogi

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

...who is asking us to follow the medical community and CDC guidelines. 

And?

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, SteveO said:

And?

And therefore...the prophet is defending the credibility of the medical community that you are questioning.   The prophet is taking the lead from the medical community on this, not the other way around.

[SteveO]

Just now, pogi said:

And therefore...the prophet is defending the credibility of the medical community that you are questioning.   The prophet is taking the lead from the medical community on this, not the other way around.

You have selective reading.  I said I understood why there is apprehension about following their guidelines. 

Yes or No

At the height of the pandemic, is the picture below depicting a medically condoned activity?

 

[pogi]

55 minutes ago, SteveO said:

You have selective reading.  I said I understood why there is apprehension about following their guidelines. 

Yes or No

At the height of the pandemic, is the picture below depicting a medically condoned activity?

 

I have selective reading?  You said that you understand why people are apprehensive about the vaccine.  What you said about the medical community, on the other hand, is this:

Quote

For the near future at least, science, experts, and the medical community have irreparably damaged their credibility.

You stated this as  a fact, despite what others think.  Despite what the prophet has said about listening to and following the experts/medical community. 

We don't need to rehash 2020, but you seem to think that the medical community was unanimously in favor of the protests.  That simply isn't true.  Of course, there were some who felt that despite the risks of Covid, they argued that benefits of seizing the moment would outweigh the risk in efforts to bring change to racially driven disparities that have long been recognized as an important public-health problem.     However, Fauci and others in the medical community consistently discouraged attendance at all protests and warned about them being high spreader events.  It was up to local governments, not the medical community that you disparage, to decide how to respond to the protests.

Quote

Fauci:

"Avoid crowds of any type no matter where you are ... I don't judge one crowd versus another crowd."

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/509961-jim-jordan-presses-fauci-on-protests-covid-19
 

Quote

 

Surgeon General:

"I remain concerned about the public health consequences both of individual and institutional racism [and] people out protesting in a way that is harmful to themselves and to their communities,"

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/02/politics/surgeon-general-floyd-protests-coronavirus/index.html

 

Quote

Doctors warn of covid health dangers from protests:

https://account.kansascity.com/paywall/subscriber-only?resume=242082256&intcid=ab_archive

Quote

CDC:

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/06/cdc-warns-protests-and-covid-19-spread

Despite the political effort to disparage and cause doubt in the medical community, most of these people are still going to go see their doctors when they are needed.

Edited September 13, 2021 by pogi

[SteveO]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I have selective reading?  You said that you understand why people are apprehensive about the vaccine.  What you said about the medical community, on the other hand, is this:

You stated this as  a fact, despite what others think.  Despite what the prophet has said about listening to and following the experts/medical community. 

We don't need to rehash 2020, but you seem to think that the medical community was unanimously in favor of the protests.  That simply isn't true.  Of course, there were some who felt that despite the risks of Covid, they argued that benefits of seizing the moment would outweigh the risk in efforts to bring change to racially driven disparities that have long been recognized as an important public-health problem.     However, Fauci and others in the medical community consistently discouraged attendance at all protests and warned about them being high spreader events.  It was up to local governments, not the medical community that you disparage, to decide how to respond to the protests.

Despite the political effort to disparage and cause doubt in the medical community, most of these people are still going to go see their doctors when they are needed.  Trust in the medical community is still strong.  Even Covid deniers still turn to them when they are dying from Covid.   

For people who are apprehensive, yes they have lost their credibility, and I understand why.  
 

The answer was a “no” btw

Edited September 13, 2021 by SteveO

[Bob Crockett]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

...who is asking us to follow the medical community, CDC, and local health department guidelines. 

I doubt the prophet is endorsing public health officials, the biggest nincompoops in the government.  After all, the CDC funded studies in Wuhan relating to the artificial enhancement of coronaviruses.  What idiot would do that with taxpayer funds?

The support for the vaccines is rooted in statistical studies paid for by private companies.  Like polio and chicken pox, it makes statistical sense to get a vaccine and impose vaccine requirements upon access to government benefits. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Bob Crockett

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, SteveO said:

Be careful where you assign fault for the current state of things though.  I’m double vaxxed myself, but I understand why people are apprehensive about it.  For the near future at least, science, experts, and the medical community have irreparably damaged their credibility.

Why the medical community had an opinion as to the validity of one form of protest over another last year, I’ll neverknow.  But that was the beginning of the end of rationality concerning COVID. 
 

Edit:  It is illustrative though, when everything else is stupid and crazy, there is immense wisdom in following the prophet 

 

I'm not sure what fault you assume I'm assigning here. What are you picturing when you're saying this?

 

With luv,

BD

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, SteveO said:

For people who are apprehensive, yes they have lost their credibility, and I understand why.  

Those who claim that the medical community has lost its credibility have themselves lost their credibility with most people in the world for their claims.   It gets pretty sad when you actually flesh this stuff out with them and look at their sources and claims.   They have little to nothing to stand on in discrediting the "medical community".   It is almost all politically based. 

Sure, messaging could have been much better, mistakes were made by some individuals, but overall the medical community has been pretty consistent with the science (which evolves) throughout all of this.  It is so terribly sad to me that the medical community who are the heroes of the pandemic are getting so slammed.  They made the life-saving vaccine possible in miraculous time.  The front-line workers are STILL bombarded day-in and day-out with the very people trying to discredit them. 

  https://www.ksl.com/article/50238400/front-line-fatigue-icu-nurses-taking-brutal-blows-to-their-mental-health

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

I doubt the prophet is endorsing public health officials, the biggest nincompoops in the government. 

Quote

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is following the lead of governments and healthcare professionals around the world...

Follow public health agency recommendations for using a face mask.

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/coronavirus-update

 

Quote

From the beginning of the global pandemic, top Latter-day Saint leaders have gone to great lengths to support public health officials in the battle against COVID-19.
https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2021/09/10/lds-church-wont-help/

 

 

 

[Bob Crockett]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

 

 

Well, you've proved me wrong.  What idiots those public health officials are.   I guess the average person must trust them.  

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

What idiots those public health officials are.   I guess the average person must trust them.  

Such ignorance and ingratitude.

Public health measures have improved the quality of life in America in immeasurable ways, including water quality control, vaccinations, food safety/inspections, safe and reliable drugs, motor vehicle safety, workplace safety, control of infectious diseases, healthier mothers and babies, tobacco/drug cessation efforts, general health studies/recommendations which have reduced deaths from coronary heart disease/stroke, early detection, prevention, and treatment of cancer.  They also assess the effectiveness of medical interventions and guide best practice in American medicine today.   Nincompoops! 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK218220/

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00056796.htm

Quote

Well, you've proved me wrong.

It never seems to be that difficult. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by pogi