Tithing shakedown

[Scott Lloyd]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well if you're speaking of the original tithing commandment, Bill is right. https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing#:~:text=Tithing requires members of The,their income to the church.&text=Current LDS leaders say interest,what it has always meant. But I believe if the church had continued with the original revelation, the church most likely would have gone under.

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time.

"Though the Saints' original understanding of tithing need not (and, in fact, does not) control how tithing functions today, it is fascinating to see the radically different understanding our religious forebears had of tithing," wrote Sam Brunson, associate professor of law at Loyola University Chicago, in an online blog post.

Today, Mormons simply pay ten percent of their income to the church, although there is still some debate among members as to whether to pay on gross or net income, how to pay tithing on investments, and whether tithing applies to monetary gifts.

Paying tithing is considered one of the more important commandments in the church as members cannot enter LDS temples without doing it.

"As with members of many other faiths, Latter-day Saints believe that the payment of tithing shows gratitude to God and brings both spiritual and temporal blessings," according to the church's website.

Neither Bill Reel nor anyone else on his own volition gets to revise Church doctrine or practice based on his own interpretation of how things were done in yesteryear. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

On 12/29/2020 at 5:38 AM, The Nehor said:

Oh, if this is a tithing rant page can I complain that one person shows up out of the blue on the last Sunday of the month at the end of interviews as everyone is getting ready to close up and gives all their tithing for the year in cash and then asks worriedly if it will be deposited in time to count for this year. Of course we already processed tithing and dropped it off hours ago. Had to make another trip to the bank and me and the Bishop had to delay dinner plans. From about a decade ago but I am still clearly not over it.

Strange, as the IRS counts the deduction as the day made, not deposited. I do this all the time.

[Bob Crockett]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Neither Bill Reel nor anyone else in his own volition gets to revise Church doctrine or practice based on his own interpretation of how things were done in yesteryear. 

Bill has lots of private interpretation which runs against established doctrine or procedure. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

We own two businesses and with one there was a technical loss the last two years because of inventory purchases that did not sell during the same year they were bought.  But we still paid tithing from our increase from that business because a loss on a tax form does not mean that no money went into the owner's bank account.  

I've heard of people who own businesses who don't pay any tithing on them if they operate under a loss, even if that business is their sole income and they are making money off of it, but I wouldn't personally feel very confident doing that.  I want/need the blessings that paying tithing provides and I would rather seek out ways to pay than seek out ways not to.

But I'm glad that the church doesn't attempt to micromanage tithing and lets us decide for ourselves.  Not because whatever we decide to do is fine with God but because I do believe that our relationship with money, possessions, and obedience to commandments is one thing that God lets us manage basically without oversight, even to our spiritual detriment, because how we manage it says a lot about our relationship with Him.

I’ve often thought that if I were a business owner, I would pay myself a salary more-or-less independent of whether the business made or lost money in a given year — as though I were an employee of the business — and I would tithe that salary. 
 

But I’ve never been in that position and don’t anticipate I ever will be. 

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, Bob Crockett said:

Bill has lots of private interpretation which runs against established doctrine or procedure. 

And it goes without saying, but I’ll say it. He did end up in apostasy. 

[rongo]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I read the second bolded section as saying that tithing settlement is a time for the bishop and ward member to make sure that the amount paid in donations and the amount shown to have been paid matches, and not the handbook saying the bishop should be going through every statement with each member.  But if a bishop felt he needed to go through a statement with a member then I don't think that's out of line.  If it was me then hopefully he has our statement with him because we don't ever bring one in with us.   

Exactly. What I did was give them their statements (which I had looked over). 99.9% of the time it was routine, but I did address gaps or concerns where there were any. Fast offerings were much more common --- many active full tithe payers don't pay any. The blessings and promises of paying offerings were discussed. For these, any participation with fast offerings at all was an improvement, and most did start paying something. Hopefully, they also lived the full law of the fast and got the full blessings from that as well.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve often thought that if I were a business owner, I would pay myself a salary more-or-less independent of whether the business made or lost money in a given year — as though I were an employee of the business — and I would tithe that salary. 
 

But I’ve never been in that position and don’t anticipate I ever will be. 

We have two accounts, a business account and a regular checking account.  All money we make from the business goes into the business account, untithed.  Twice a month (give or take) we move money from the business account into our personal account and at that point we tithe that money.  That's how we handle it.  Other people have different systems.

[Bob Crockett]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And it goes without saying, but I’ll say it. He did end up in apostasy. 

He is an interesting study in human motivation.  As Dwight Schrute said, "I determine what he proposes to do and then I do the exact opposite."

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, bluebell said:

We have two accounts, a business account and a regular checking account.  All money we make from the business goes into the business account, untithed.  Twice a month (give or take) we move money from the business account into our personal account and at that point we tithe that money.  That's how we handle it.  Other people have different systems.

Yeah, that’s pretty much how I’d do it. I’d want to have a personal savings account too, though, for personal or family emergencies. And I’d want to invest some in a mutual fund or Roth IRA. 

[HappyJackWagon]

I used to really enjoy doing tithing settlements with the ward members. So much of a bishop's time is taken up with "problems" and people in key leadership roles that sometimes  I didn't feel like I was able to touch base with people as regularly as I would have liked. Tithing settlement gave me that time with individuals and families that sometimes flew under the radar and express appreciation to them. However, I haven't gone to a tithing settlement in a few years now and have no desire to do so since I prefer to fly under the radar. 

I have been on the receiving end of the guilt heavy tithing settlements where it felt like the Bishop was looking at me as if to say "You mean to tell me this is really 10% of your income?"  But those were the exception, not the rule.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 minute ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I used to really enjoy doing tithing settlements with the ward members. So much of a bishop's time is taken up with "problems" and people in key leadership roles that sometimes  I didn't feel like I was able to touch base with people as regularly as I would have liked. Tithing settlement gave me that time with individuals and families that sometimes flew under the radar and express appreciation to them. However, I haven't gone to a tithing settlement in a few years now and have no desire to do so since I prefer to fly under the radar. 

I have been on the receiving end of the guilt heavy tithing settlements where it felt like the Bishop was looking at me as if to say "You mean to tell me this is really 10% of your income?"  But those were the exception, not the rule.

Hmm. I’ve never had that happen. 

[Bob Crockett]

39 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’ve often thought that if I were a business owner, I would pay myself a salary more-or-less independent of whether the business made or lost money in a given year — as though I were an employee of the business — and I would tithe that salary. 
 

But I’ve never been in that position and don’t anticipate I ever will be. 

I'm a business owner.  It is complicated.   Many business owners try and expense everything -- vacations, motor homes, etc -- thus taking it out of gross income.  They then pay tithing on their net after expensing these things.  There are many LDS accountants who cater to business owners that pull this stunt and skate over the edge of what the IRS allows.  You can't expense off a $100,000 motorhome (through depreciation deductions) merely because you occasionally make business calls from it.   When I was a bishop I saw this.  Members of the church with multiple homes, expensive vacations and possessions who managed to get their net income down to close to zero and pay tithing on that.  I confronted a handful of them on this practice and received a lot of misery in response.  I then concluded it wasn't worth it and if that is what a member wanted to do, then I wasn't going to say anything.

I had one small business owner launder checks from clients through the church.  He paid his tithing by countersigning checks from clients and then didn't declare these checks as income on his return.  He was a major priesthood office holder.  I confronted him and told him not to do that anymore.  His explanation was ludicrous but he stopped.  He resumed after I left. 

Meanwhile, wage earners would often pay much more than these business owners.  It was shocking.  

I'm glad I'm out of that mess.  I want nothing more to do with it.  Lots of dishonesty.  

On occasion I would "shake down" a member paying close to zero in tithing with a boat, two homes, a motorhome and the like.   Working in the temple. I got blowback and misery.  I stopped that nonsense.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Bob Crockett

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

You can't expense off a $100,000 motorhome (through depreciation deductions) merely because you occasionally make business calls from it.   When I was a bishop I saw this.  Members of the church with multiple homes, expensive vacations and possessions who managed to get their net income down to close to zero and pay tithing on that

It seems to me that if I pinch pennies with the Lord that that giving Him my permission for Him to pinch pennies in return.  With everything He's promised me it seems like I can afford to be generous in what I give Him.

[pogi]

19 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've only perused the posts here. I'm missing some basic information. It appears that bishops ask LDS how much money they have donated as tithing? Or something similar? Does someone mind giving me the foundational information I'm missing. Thanks!

And, of course, if you mention shakedown, every deadhead is going to think of Shakedown Street: "nothing's shakin' on Shakedown Street!"

 

 

Why should a disco pop song only be around 3 minutes and 30 seconds anyway!?  

Edited December 30, 2020 by pogi

[Scott Lloyd]

14 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

I'm a business owner.  It is complicated.   Many business owners try and expense everything -- vacations, motor homes, etc -- thus taking it out of gross income.  They then pay tithing on their net after expensing these things.  There are many LDS accountants who cater to business owners that pull this stunt and skate over the edge of what the IRS allows.  You can't expense off a $100,000 motorhome (through depreciation deductions) merely because you occasionally make business calls from it.   When I was a bishop I saw this.  Members of the church with multiple homes, expensive vacations and possessions who managed to get their net income down to close to zero and pay tithing on that.  I confronted a handful of them on this practice and received a lot of misery in response.  I then concluded it wasn't worth it and if that is what a member wanted to do, then I wasn't going to say anything.

I had one small business owner launder checks from clients through the church.  He paid his tithing by countersigning checks from clients and then didn't declare these checks as income on his return.  He was a major priesthood office holder.  I confronted him and told him not to do that anymore.  His explanation was ludicrous but he stopped.  He resumed after I left. 

Meanwhile, wage earners would often pay much more than these business owners.  It was shocking.  

I'm glad I'm out of that mess.  I want nothing more to do with it.  Lots of dishonesty.  

On occasion I would "shake down" a member paying close to zero in tithing with a boat, two homes, a motorhome and the like.   Working in the temple. I got blowback and misery.  I stopped that nonsense.

Kinda sounds reminiscent of Reel’s tithe-the-surplus mindset. In my mind, I don’t really have a surplus. There’s a use for all of my income. So if I were to adopt that mindset, I’d never pay any tithing. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Bob Crockett]

23 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Kinda sounds reminiscent of Reel’s tax-the-surplus mindset. In my mind, I don’t really have a surplus. There’s a use for all of my income. So if I were to adopt that mindset, I’d never pay any tithing. 

Reel's analysis is really infantile.  I don't think he should be opining on this or any other issue.  

[Rain]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Normally the meetings takes less than ten minutes and includes a "welcome/how are things going?" question, the "does everything check out on your donation statement?" question, the "are you full tithe payers?" question, and then the closing is "there anything else I can help you with/idle chitchat/pleasantries" stuff.

I've been going to them for decades, in five different states, and I've never been asked a follow up question to see if I'm being honest with my declaration and I've never had a bishop actually look at or bring up my donations statement during the meeting.  

It's not my favorite time of the year but that's because it's another meeting to schedule after church on a sunday and those always feel like a pain.

That is generally how it has gone for us.  Usually it is the clerks who would ask me before I went in if everything was correct.  Occasionally I found tithing switched for fast offering or vice versa.  Once I found a tithing donation missing.  (It was in someone's suit pocket for months.)

I have never had the bishop ask about amounts, but I have had comments once or twice on amounts which made us uncomfortable - not because we felt guilty.

[bsjkki]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

We have two accounts, a business account and a regular checking account.  All money we make from the business goes into the business account, untithed.  Twice a month (give or take) we move money from the business account into our personal account and at that point we tithe that money.  That's how we handle it.  Other people have different systems.

We take a salary and then we also take distributions. We pay tithing on the money that goes into our bank account. We have not had a losing year so I'm not sure how we would handle that. Tax returns don't really work well since it contains earning we don't see or have any control over. How do you tithe on money you don't have? As a salaried employee we usually would pay on gross but as a business owner, that did not work. If we live long enough to use our retirement and social security money, we will probably over tithe because I will pay on that as we use it since there is no accounting for the post-tithe and pre-tithe earnings at this point. Tithing threads can get really detailed for people but personally, I think a broad and simple assessment is best. There really is no need to overthink it. As a young couple we switched from net to gross because we were so poor we were resenting paying our tithing. So, we payed more and saw innumerable blessings. When we started our own business, I took it to the Lord and he let me know what to do.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Kinda sounds reminiscent of Reel’s tax-the-surplus mindset. In my mind, I don’t really have a surplus. There’s a use for all of my income. So if I were to adopt that mindset, I’d never pay any tithing. 

Exactly!  Frankly, in the minds of Bill Reel and his like-minded fellows, I think that's precisely the point.   I don't have any firsthand knowledge here, but it does seem to me, as a far-outside observer, that, often, those who want to have the greatest say in how the Kingdom of God is run are those who don't do things the way God has commanded that they be done in the first place ...  (And perhaps there's the rub, too: If I don't think God's in charge to begin with, then, of course the first thing I'm going to try to do is argue that President Russell M. Nelson should change his mind so that he thinks more like me ...)

[JustAnAustralian]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well if you're speaking of the original tithing commandment, Bill is right

Focusing on Bishop Partridges definition of "interest" is ignoring half of the tithing instructions.

Quote

D&C119:1-4
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

If people are going to insist on using his definition of interest, they should also be donating their surplus property first.

[Kenngo1969]

D&C119:1-4
1 Verily, thus saith the Lord, I require all their asurplus property to be put into the hands of the bishop of my church in Zion,
2 For the building of mine ahouse, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the atithing of my people.
4 And after that, those who have thus been atithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.

5 minutes ago, JustAnAustralian said:

Focusing on Bishop Partridges definition of "interest" is ignoring half of the tithing instructions.

If people are going to insist on using his definition of interest, they should also be donating their surplus property first.

You know, the longer I live, the starker the realization becomes that (unless something changes drastically in the next while, which I hope for but do not expect) if I were called upon to live the Law of Consecration, I would come out way ahead.  Way ahead.

[JustAnAustralian]

50 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

As a salaried employee we usually would pay on gross but as a business owner, that did not work.

I like Elder Widtsoe's explanation.

Quote

Elder John A. Widtsoe explained: “...The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him...." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-119-the-law-of-tithing?lang=eng

I have one account that is my "regular" account, on which I pay based on external money in. I have a second account which is used for managing long term investments. At the end of each financial year, I pay tithing on the net income generated by the investments into that account. If/When I sell the investments I will pay the tithing on the increase in value of the investment itself. 

I do separate tithing transactions for my regular account, and the investment account. Of course, both are linked to the same person (me), but it means I don't need to worry about calculating which bit comes from where.

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

MN, I’ve been wondering about something. You’ve been reading and posting here for a long time now and are pretty much part of the landscape. As such, you’ve been privy to our candid, back-and-forth discussions, our mindset, concerns, ideals, outlook, aspirations, often our bickering, warts and blemishes. You’ve seen the devout and the disaffected among us and often the spectrum in between. 
 

My question is this: To the extent we here might be viewed as a microcosm of the Latter-day Saints, what is your overall impression of us as a people? 

Hi Scott,

That's a big question! I am curious as to the premise -- how much is this board a microcosm of your church, as you see it?

There are a wide range of views here, which I appreciate, and after all these years (8 now, I think), I like that I have a general feel on who is going to react how to certain topics (to wit, mfbukowski and his damn Rorty video, ha, which I love teasing him about). I'm glad this isn't an echo chamber, too, though it is interesting that criticisms from non-LDS posters has greatly diminished since I first started posting. I'm guessing for the more traditional LDS members, the criticisms from disaffected LDS can be irksome, but from strictly an outsider's point-of-view, it allows me to see where some fault lines are, which teaches me about both doctrinal and cultural issues in your faith. I also am grateful for the scholars that post, too. There is a kindness on this board that I appreciate. I'll mark that up to the quality of character of the posters and the good moderation that steps in when necessary. With so much ugliness on the internet, it's nice to have a place where lively, interesting, and civil discussion is to be had.

Back to your main question. Through all of this "you" is referring to LDS people, and not to Scott or anyone else in particular.

My overall impression of you as a people is very positive. I think you are a moral people trying to follow your faith and God's will. I think this applies to some of your disaffected members, too, (those who are sincere as opposed to those who are just looking for contention). There may be a tad of Puritanism in LDS thought sometimes -- c'mon, guys, talking about God over a good craft beer is wonderful!  

I'm also not quite sure what to make of your devotion to the temple, since I have little clue of what goes in there. My guess is what I've been told (covenants, sealings, proxy work, etc.) doesn't quite cover it, because that doesn't really describe ceremony and it isn't really controversial. I don't have an issue with you not disclosing what goes on, and I long ago decided not to look it up because of your beliefs and my respect for them, but it is certainly a unique part of your faith.

You have a great love of education and intellectual pursuits. Now, this view of mine could be skewed by the fact that those who are on the board are those who love conversations, arguments, scholarship, etc., but the LDS I've known in real life have been well educated and articulate.

You are VERY communal, meaning that you place great emphasis on community (family and social groups). My first time attending your services I was overwhelmed with all the hand shakes and greetings! This social aspect I think also puts an emphasis on speaking at your services -- lots of talks, lessons, discussions. I can see how the community service you offer flows from this communal ethos and how that ethos is rooted in your doctrine of extended family sealings. It doesn't seem, though, that there is much room for those who feel a vocation towards some sort of monastic spirituality -- silent retreats, contemplative prayer, traditional mystical experience, renouncing the world. Perhaps this is something that will develop as time goes by, in accordance with your doctrine of course. And perhaps I bring this up because this is a big part of my Catholic faith, and it is supported explicitly within the Catholic Church.

You do seem to be American-centric (as Duncan and Hamba sometimes point out), but I'm not sure if that has to do with the sample size of this board or some other factor. I was initially intrigued by the LDS faith because it seemed like a truly American religion: it was founded in America, the Book of Mormon is about America, America is the promised land, the New Jerusalem will be in America, Garden of Eden was in America, the American constitution is inspired, etc. I know this is political, and I hope the mods forgive it, but there is also a strong streak of American conservatism. I wonder what the political views of LDS outside of the USA are like? Now, since I run in traditional Catholic circles, the most "conservative" among them speak glowingly of monarchism and in theological terms, too, so I suppose I can put up with your conservatism  

There's of course much more I could say, but this is what comes to mind right now. Thanks for being interested in my views. I'd be interested in what 3DOP thinks, since he's been on the board much longer than I.

I'll end by saying that despite some very strong doctrinal differences, there are many ties that bind us together. I agree with 3DOP that if traditional Christianity (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodox) isn't Christ's Church, then there would have to be a restoration of some sort, and from what I know you are the biggest claimants to that. So we can both sigh at the impertinence of the protestants 😁 As I mentioned before, your community service is admirable, and I love how our two churches so often work together to do good.

I chose the name MiserereNobis because it means "have mercy on us." May God have mercy on all of us!

Peace be with you,

Jesse

 

 

[MiserereNobis]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

Why should a disco pop song only be around 3 minutes and 30 seconds anyway!?  

Oh no, the album version! Terrible. The Grateful Dead, with a few exceptions, tended to flop in the studio. They were a live band and needed 10-15 minutes to really let the song stretch its legs.

[MiserereNobis]

6 hours ago, CV75 said:

(I see that "Shakedown Street" was already posted) ha ha

I was going to comment on your gif because you had Jeff Chimenti on keys. Could be Ratdog, The Dead, Furthur, Dead and Company. I absolutely love him on keys.