Tithing shakedown

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Wards are only funded based on their quarterly sacrament meeting attendance (although during these Covid months, who knows? Probably "frozen" at a set amount). Number of Melchizedek priesthood holders and full tithe payers factor into unit creation/divisions (i.e., feasibility, based on leadership and activity level), but don't affect funding. My wards were wards of around 220 attending on average, and this equated to about $13,000 annually for the ward budget (for comparison of larger and smaller ward attendance). 

During covid it's based on the same period for last year.

Strictly speaking, it's the stake that gets the budget, and then allocate it to the ward, however it's not just sacrament attendance, there are additional allocations for the various class quorum attendances. https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/wiki/Budget_allowance

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Oh, if this is a tithing rant page can I complain that one person shows up out of the blue on the last Sunday of the month at the end of interviews as everyone is getting ready to close up and gives all their tithing for the year in cash and then asks worriedly if it will be deposited in time to count for this year. Of course we already processed tithing and dropped it off hours ago. Had to make another trip to the bank and me and the Bishop had to delay dinner plans. From about a decade ago but I am still clearly not over it.

Just plan for it every year as part of the calling, and live with it. It's just part if the fun in dealing with humans.  You get used to it after a while 

[mfbukowski]

14 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

we chose November 1st as our last day to pay tithing. Any thing made in December we rolled over into next year’s numbers.

That works too!

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's the way it should be. It took me a couple of years as bishop before I landed on this philosophy, at least partially because instructions from my Stake President was that tithing settlement is a time to teach accountability. He also stressed that when I (as bishop) signed the tithing status report I would be accountable to God if I was wrong.

I see that as way out of line.

If someone wants to lie to God, that's their problem!

I mean that's the kind of OCD stuff that could be stressful to the point of affecting health for some

 

[mfbukowski]

9 hours ago, Amulek said:

Really? You have a number of friends who are full tithe payers, but who also happen to have sufficient wealth or desire for privacy that they pay their tithing to the church directly rather than through their local unit and are then harangued by their bishops about whether or not they are actually full tithe payers?

Fascinating.

I have, over the years, been friends with a number of (I believe the technical term for this is...) hella-rich members of the church, and I've never once heard any of them who pay tithes in this manner have any sort of problem doing so. That was in Texas, Oklahoma, Washington, and Utah though. YMMV. 

 

Meh. I wouldn't fault a new bishop for questioning how someone in his ward with a multi-million dollar house could also have a printout showing zero dollars contributed for tithing.

I could even forgive such a bishop for bungling a conversation like that with said member.

Especially if said member was so prideful as to consider any such an inquiry as an 'investigat[ion]...[for] not donating every dime possible to the Mormon cause / charity.'

 

In my business I never know how much is "increase" and how much is expenses since both are variable considerably from year to year, tithing settlement is like doing my income tax, but due in December.

 It would be great to have a Bishop do a free audit on it for me. It takes hours.

 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Meh. I wouldn't fault a new bishop for questioning how someone in his ward with a multi-million dollar house could also have a printout showing zero dollars contributed for tithing.

There ARE years you come out in the red, living off of savings.  With covid this could be one year like that for many

Oops that quote was from Amulek, see above

Edited December 30, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Rain]

14 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

As a bishop, I never thought it was my obligation or privilege to compare a member’s tithing report with what I thought their income was. They declared their status, period.

I appreciate this.

People have often assumed that as an engineer my husband makes a lot. 

They don't know how little he was paid with one job. 

Or that in another job we went through periods of  no pay, half pay and 3/4 pay.  They don't know we were given stock in a now closed business in lieu of pay.  I remember at one time realizing he made less than a starting Utah teacher.  At other times we have done well.

I remember in those times of my husband getting no pay of twice earning $1 for an online survey or something.  I hated paying that dime! I figured that it was likely the bishopric wouldn't notice we weren't paying anything, but paying a dime made things pretty obvious. 

[AtlanticMike]

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

Actually, it is a bishop's business to know someone is paying a full tithe before authorizing a temple recommend, and I would prefer he verify that instead of just taking some member's word for it.  There are dishonest members and a bishop should ferret them out !!!

In my opinion.

When I got married my bishop was on his 6th year as a 2 term bishop, I think his first go around was when he was in his 40s. He called me and my wife in and tried to give us advice on how we should act to have a "righteous " sex life. Well, I didnt react quite like I should have and after I said a few choice words, he threaten to take my temple reccomend. I went to the stake pres. And he said that my bishop was old school and sometimes he felt it was his obligation to find out if "sins" were being committed before signing a temple reccomend. The stake pres. agreed it was none of the bishops concern what we did in the bedroom, (or anywhere else😉) and he would talk to him to make sure it wouldn't happen again. Same principle applies to tithing. It's not the bishops concern if your telling the truth 100% in paying tithing, if so, that would be a full time job going through receipt of every tithe paying member. If someone says their a full tithe payer and their lying they'll be judged accordingly, but not by a human on the other side of a poorly built desk

 

[Scott Lloyd]

11 hours ago, bluebell said:

At the end of the year the bishop holds a meeting (called a tithing settlement) where he meets with each member of his ward and they declared whether or not they are a full tithe payer.  They can also take this opportunity to make sure that what they have donated matches what the church records show they have donated.  No one is required to attend tithing settlement, but the bishop has to record whether or not every member is a full tithe payer (iirc this is because wards receive some funds based on the number of full tithe payers but I might be remembering that wrong) so it's easier for him if as many people actually go in as possible.

Edit to add the instructions from the Handbook:

The bishop holds tithing settlement near the end of each year. In urgent cases when the bishop is absent, the stake president may authorize one of the bishop’s counselors to conduct tithing settlement. However, such a need would be rare.

All members should attend tithing settlement to make sure their contribution records are correct and to declare to the bishop their status as tithe payers. If possible, all members of a family should attend tithing settlement.

In addition to reviewing records of members’ tithing, fast offerings, and other donations, during tithing settlement the bishop can discuss the principle of tithing with them, encourage them to give a generous fast offering, and discuss other relevant matters. At the time of tithing settlement, a clerk or a member of the bishopric could also review the Individual Ordinance Summary with members

As just one example of a discrepancy that might occur, on one occasion I learned from the donor statement I received at tithing settlement that one of my tithing donations during the year had been erroneously credited not to me but to my young son, who has my name as his middle name. Some years later, when I became an assistant ward clerk over finances, I learned from experience how easy it is for an error like this to occur during data entry. 
 

In addition to what Bluebell has said here, a member’s worthiness to attend the temple or hold certain callings is contingent upon the member being a full tithe payer, and it can be helpful for a bishop to have a record of the member’s tithing status before a calling is issued or a temple recommend interview is held. 
 

If at tithing settlement a member admits to not being a full tithe payer, it can be an  opportunity for the bishop to lovingly encourage and help the member become a full tithe payer. I don’t know how often this happens, but I heard of one bishop who offered to forgive a member’s tithing arrearage  if the member would commit from that time forth to paying a full tithe. 
 

Finally, many Church members choose to itemize their deductions when preparing their income tax returns, and they declare their donations to the Church as charitable deductions. In that case, it is important for the member’s own records to square with the Church’s should there be an IRS audit. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

On 12/29/2020 at 6:34 AM, rongo said:

Despite people following Bill Reel in insisting that tithing status is whatever people say it is, and the bishop can go pound sand, they certainly can and should follow up to make sure people are living the spirit and the letter of the law.

My beef with Reel’s position was that he not only had the attitude you ascribe to him here, but that he criticized Church leaders for not teaching other members that his quirky (and, in my view, extremely misguided) opinion was THE correct one. 

[Scott Lloyd]

If there be any here who still think the word “shakedown” has been applied appropriately in this instance, I invite them to ponder this definition given in the online Merriam-Webster dictionary:

: to obtain money from in a deceitful, contemptible, or illegal manner

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, rongo said:

1) Wards are only funded based on their quarterly sacrament meeting attendance (although during these Covid months, who knows? Probably "frozen" at a set amount). Number of Melchizedek priesthood holders and full tithe payers factor into unit creation/divisions (i.e., feasibility, based on leadership and activity level), but don't affect funding. My wards were wards of around 220 attending on average, and this equated to about $13,000 annually for the ward budget (for comparison of larger and smaller ward attendance). 

2) The bolded and underlined portions of what you quoted from the handbook seems to run counter to what many have been claiming in this thread, viz., that the bishop should simply ask for a self-designation and wish them a good night. "Reviewing" donation records, discussing the principle of tithing, encouraging them to give generous fast offerings, and "discuss[ing] other relevant matters." 

Some here have insisted that no reviewing of donation records should ever take place. 

Thanks for posting this! 

I read the second bolded section as saying that tithing settlement is a time for the bishop and ward member to make sure that the amount paid in donations and the amount shown to have been paid matches, and not the handbook saying the bishop should be going through every statement with each member.  But if a bishop felt he needed to go through a statement with a member then I don't think that's out of line.  If it was me then hopefully he has our statement with him because we don't ever bring one in with us.   

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I don’t know how often this happens, but I heard of one bishop who offered to forgive a member’s tithing arrearage  if the member would commit from that time forth to paying a full tithe. 

Pretty much standard procedure 

You can't go back in time to correct past mistakes, and one objective is to get out of debt.  God is not Scrooge, what else are you going to do?

He forgives seven times seventy

Repentance can be tough, and church is not a collection agency

[Scott Lloyd]

16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I read the second bolded section as saying that tithing settlement is a time for the bishop and ward member to make sure that the amount paid in donations and the amount shown to have been paid matches, and not the handbook saying the bishop should be going through every statement with each member.  But if a bishop felt he needed to go through a statement with a member then I don't think that's out of line.  If it was me then hopefully he has our statement with him because we don't ever bring one in with us.   

The bishop has ready on-line access to it. 
 

My first tithing settlement as assistant ward clerk was a year ago, and our current bishop had only been in office for a few weeks. The other financial clerk had been in the habit of printing out a copy of the donor statement for the bishop to refer to during the tithing settlement interview, but the new bishop said he didn’t need the hard copy, that he could pull it up on his computer if he needed it. 

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I once accidentally crashed an evening fireside with local church leadership and an apostle (long story).  Part of the apostle's talk indicated one of the most-asked questions from bishops was "Occasionally, I'm almost certain I'm being lied to by a member, but have no concrete proof. Should I still [issue the recommend/provide the church assistance/etc]?"

The answer was along the lines of "These are opportunities for the member to account to the Lord.  Unless there's a danger of harm to someone or you have concrete proof, do not interfere with this accounting.  No matter how strong the impression of the Spirit.  If the member wishes to be deceitful, that's between them and the Lord."

Whenever I find myself applying my secular/worldly business control risk mitigation mindset to this answer, I just think about how vastly superior the church's welfare system is, compared to any other earthly system.  All the others are relatively vying for a very distant 2nd to last place.

Good principles, but does that apply to blindly following advice from Kirton & McConkie lawyers?  What does it mean to follow the Spirit in such instances?  What if the Spirit says Pick up the phone and call the police?  Are innocent lives at stake?  I am thinking of an instance in which President Henry B. Eyring was a bishop who gave bad advice, and learned later of his mistake (he confessed this at a past Conference).

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Pretty much standard procedure 

You can't go back in time to correct past mistakes, and one objective is to get out of debt.  God is not Scrooge, what else are you going to do?

He forgives seven times seventy

Repentance can be tough, and church is not a collection agency

I’ve wondered about that and guessed that it must be the case. I’ve never found myself in that unfortunate circumstance and hope I never will. 

[CV75]

22 hours ago, Amulek said:

Meh. I wouldn't fault a new bishop for questioning how someone in his ward with a multi-million dollar house could also have a printout showing zero dollars contributed for tithing.

As a new bishop (this is many years ago) I had a member in business keep asking me how he should calculate his tithe since he lived (very well, I might add) off his property earnings and often his tax rules resulted in a very low net profit or even a loss. I kept giving him the standard answer but he kept acting self-conscious about the "low" calculation. I don't know if that was out of guilt for living well while  shortchanging the Lord or shame from the appearance that the business (or he) wasn't very successful.

If they're worried about it, why don't these guys pay themselves a "fair market wage" out of the business, and tithe that while living within that budget? That's what I would do.

Edited December 30, 2020 by CV75

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Thank you for clarifying! Now the posts I've perused make more sense. I don't think I'd like such a meeting, honestly, but then again Catholicism doesn't have a rule as to how much you should give, so there doesn't need to be a meeting with someone to determine if you've given that amount.

Normally the meetings takes less than ten minutes and includes a "welcome/how are things going?" question, the "does everything check out on your donation statement?" question, the "are you full tithe payers?" question, and then the closing is "there anything else I can help you with/idle chitchat/pleasantries" stuff.

I've been going to them for decades, in five different states, and I've never been asked a follow up question to see if I'm being honest with my declaration and I've never had a bishop actually look at or bring up my donations statement during the meeting.  

It's not my favorite time of the year but that's because it's another meeting to schedule after church on a sunday and those always feel like a pain.

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Good principles, but does that apply to blindly following advice from Kirton & McConkie lawyers?  What does it mean to follow the Spirit in such instances?  What if the Spirit says Pick up the phone and call the police?  Are innocent lives at stake?  I am thinking of an instance in which President Henry B. Eyring was a bishop who gave bad advice, and learned later of his mistake (he confessed this at a past Conference).

Seems like these questions would fall under the 'unless there is a possibility of harm to someone' caveat LMM said the apostle spoke of.

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Normally the meetings takes less than ten minutes and includes a "welcome/how are things going?" question, the "does everything check out on your donation statement?" question, the "are you full tithe payers?" question, and then the closing is "there anything else I can help you with/idle chitchat/pleasantries" stuff.

I've been going to them for decades, in five different states, and I've never been asked a follow up question to see if I'm being honest with my declaration and I've never had a bishop actually look at or bring up my donations statement during the meeting.  

It's not my favorite time of the year but that's because it's another meeting to schedule after church on a sunday and those always feel like a pain.

Well, that type of meeting certainly sounds innocuous. I guess I was going off of some of the posts here that suggest the bishop should look into your finances, ask specific follow up questions, etc. It made it sound like a meeting to get a mortgage, ha.

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As a new bishop (this is many years ago) I had a member in business keep asking me how he should calculate his tithe since he lived (very well, I might add) off his property earnings and often his tax rules resulted in a very low net profit or even a loss. I kept giving him the standard answer but he kept acting self-conscious about the "low" calculation. I don't know if that was out of guilt for living well while  shortchanging the Lord or shame from the appearance that the business (or he) wasn't very successful.

If they're worried about it, why don't these guys pay themselves a "fair market wage" out of the business, and tithe that while living within that budget? That's what I would do.

We own two businesses and with one there was a technical loss the last two years because of inventory purchases that did not sell during the same year they were bought.  But we still paid tithing from our increase from that business because a loss on a tax form does not mean that no money went into the owner's bank account.  

I've heard of people who own businesses who don't pay any tithing on them if they operate under a loss, even if that business is their sole income and they are making money off of it, but I wouldn't personally feel very confident doing that.  I want/need the blessings that paying tithing provides and I would rather seek out ways to pay than seek out ways not to.

But I'm glad that the church doesn't attempt to micromanage tithing and lets us decide for ourselves.  Not because whatever we decide to do is fine with God but because I do believe that our relationship with money, possessions, and obedience to commandments is one thing that God lets us manage basically without oversight, even to our spiritual detriment, because how we manage it says a lot about our relationship with Him.

[CV75]

(I see that "Shakedown Street" was already posted) ha ha

Edited December 30, 2020 by CV75

[Scott Lloyd]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Normally the meetings takes less than ten minutes and includes a "welcome/how are things going?" question, the "does everything check out on your donation statement?" question, the "are you full tithe payers?" question, and then the closing is "there anything else I can help you with/idle chitchat/pleasantries" stuff.

I've been going to them for decades, in five different states, and I've never been asked a follow up question to see if I'm being honest with my declaration and I've never had a bishop actually look at or bring up my donations statement during the meeting.  

It's not my favorite time of the year but that's because it's another meeting to schedule after church on a sunday and those always feel like a pain.

That’s a pretty accurate summary of a tithing settlement meeting. 
 

When our children were little, the bishop would generally give a mini lesson about the definition and purpose of tithing, but our youngsters are mostly grown now and in one case flown the coup. 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

My beef with Reel’s position was that he not only had the attitude you ascribe to him here, but that he criticized Church leaders for not teaching other members that his quirky (and, in my view, extremely misguided) opinion was THE correct one. 

Well if you're speaking of the original tithing commandment, Bill is right. https://kutv.com/news/local/new-historical-information-reveals-original-meaning-of-lds-tithing#:~:text=Tithing requires members of The,their income to the church.&text=Current LDS leaders say interest,what it has always meant. IMO, if the church had continued with the original revelation, the church most likely would have gone under or would be a smaller church. 

"Bishop Partridge understood 'one tenth of all their interest' annually to mean 10 percent of what Saints would earn in interest if they invested their net worth for a year," Harper wrote. He cited an example from Partridge who was reportedly in the room when Smith received the revelation.

"If a man is worth a $1000, the interest on that would be $60, and one/10. of the interest will be of course $6. thus you see the plan," Partridge wrote in a letter just days after the revelation was received.

According to Harper, six percent was a common interest rate at the time.

"Though the Saints' original understanding of tithing need not (and, in fact, does not) control how tithing functions today, it is fascinating to see the radically different understanding our religious forebears had of tithing," wrote Sam Brunson, associate professor of law at Loyola University Chicago, in an online blog post.

Today, Mormons simply pay ten percent of their income to the church, although there is still some debate among members as to whether to pay on gross or net income, how to pay tithing on investments, and whether tithing applies to monetary gifts.

Paying tithing is considered one of the more important commandments in the church as members cannot enter LDS temples without doing it.

"As with members of many other faiths, Latter-day Saints believe that the payment of tithing shows gratitude to God and brings both spiritual and temporal blessings," according to the church's website.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Tacenda

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Well, that type of meeting certainly sounds innocuous. I guess I was going off of some of the posts here that suggest the bishop should look into your finances, ask specific follow up questions, etc. It made it sound like a meeting to get a mortgage, ha.

MN, I’ve been wondering about something. You’ve been reading and posting here for a long time now and are pretty much part of the landscape. As such, you’ve been privy to our candid, back-and-forth discussions, our mindset, concerns, ideals, outlook, aspirations, often our bickering, warts and blemishes. You’ve seen the devout and the disaffected among us and often the spectrum in between. 
 

My question is this: To the extent we here might be viewed as a microcosm of the Latter-day Saints, what is your overall impression of us as a people? 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Scott Lloyd