Can the holy habits and righteous routines of Mormonism bring immediate blessings, superseding Gods blessings of mercy.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Tacenda said:

My inactive siblings and their husbands had to wait outside the temple. Which saddens me to this day. And I've attended my niece and nephew's temple ceremonies where once again my siblings had to wait outside, even flying from out of state. They did sort of complain once, don't recall their words, but I felt bad for them. I'm so glad the church allows ceremony's outside of the temple and then sealed the next day in the temple, vs. waiting for a year. It was the best choice. And I do remember conversations on this board about it a few years ago. But now I think more members are being more positive about the change vs. defending the church establishing the rule not to allow the temple sealing immediately following the civil marriage. 

And about the part of receiving exaltation without being judged on your works is off to me. From conversations on this very board I remember conversations that faithful LDS totally agree this is a works based belief and were fine with that. 

I switched on that when the rules changed. I could justify it either way in my mind before the change too. I pivoted when the apostle pivoted. That is a feature, not a bug.

[AtlanticMike]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Because our faith and obedience do not operate in isolation, and are even dependent on the Higher Power. What kind of immediate healing is it where the "Thy will be done" attitude is lacking or absent at a fundamental level?

CV75 I'll admit, I'm confused, I'm not trying to say faith and obedience operate in isolation. Also, if I'm praying for an immediate blessing, which I've never done, I would be praying for an immediate blessing so his will could be done, continously through me. The only reason I could see myself praying and asking for an immediate blessing, would be if there's something personal in my life that is taking up so much time on a day to day basis, that I've neglected to glorify him through my actions. I'm asking to be healed so I can get back to my normal routine as soon as possible. And yes, I would pray and ask him to take in consideration my works as proof of my worthiness and dedication in glorifying him and his message. I would have to be at rock bottom to do this, but I would because he's my father, and fathers listen and consider the best option for their children. If that makes me a heathen then so be it. 

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

We do receive it based on our actions but Christ’s atonement made it so those actions got that reward and without the atonement the actions would have been rewarded with nothing. So it all comes from Christ but our actions also determine how much comes. I think that makes sense. It does in my head anyways.

Also the reward is disproportionate to the actions taken. We are unprofitable servants. It is akin to a small child “helping” their parent with a chore. The child often contributes nothing or even less than nothing by making the task take longer but the parent is pleased anyways and is likely to reward the child in some way. The child didn’t really earn the reward in any cost/benefit analysis but the parent gives them the reward anyways.

Once people are exalted (maybe even before) we can possibly start being profitable on our own merits but that is just a guess. I am convinced we cannot do it while alive here.

Excellent response!  I love this board.  I want to break down a two of your points a bit.

1. "Christ’s atonement made it so those actions got that reward and without the atonement the actions would have been rewarded with nothing"
Are we suggesting that without the atonement obedience to any eternal law has no effect?  That without the atonement all cause/effect of gospel law ceases to operate?
I recognize that without Christ's atonement our entire existence would be pretty pointless since we couldn't be resurrected, couldn't progress, and could never pay the price of our sins.
But I'm not so sure that extends to eliminating cause and effect on our obedience to eternal law.  Laws have penalties and blessings.  That doesn't change if the atonement goes away.

2. "The reward is disproportionate to the actions taken"
I recognize the truthfulness of this when you are looking at the blessings of exaltation in their entirety, the great big gospel plan.
But what about the simple ones? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/youth/learn/ss/commandments/blessings?lang=eng
For example - scripture says if we pay our tithing we will have our needs met.  We pay our tithing and our needs are met.  (Malachi 3:10-12)  God doesn't owe us temporal blessings, but we obey and we receive.

I don't see that proportion enters into it.  We're not talking about balancing our ledger here.  We're speaking of the basic commandment/blessing paradigm.

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Excellent response!  I love this board.  I want to break down a two of your points a bit.

1. "Christ’s atonement made it so those actions got that reward and without the atonement the actions would have been rewarded with nothing"
Are we suggesting that without the atonement obedience to any eternal law has no effect?  That without the atonement all cause/effect of gospel law ceases to operate?
I recognize that without Christ's atonement our entire existence would be pretty pointless since we couldn't be resurrected, couldn't progress, and could never pay the price of our sins.
But I'm not so sure that extends to eliminating cause and effect on our obedience to eternal law.  Laws have penalties and blessings.  That doesn't change if the atonement goes away.

2. "The reward is disproportionate to the actions taken"
I recognize the truthfulness of this when you are looking at the blessings of exaltation in their entirety, the great big gospel plan.
But what about the simple ones? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/youth/learn/ss/commandments/blessings?lang=eng
For example - scripture says if we pay our tithing we will have our needs met.  We pay our tithing and our needs are met.  (Malachi 3:10-12)  God doesn't owe us temporal blessings, but we obey and we receive.

I don't see that proportion enters into it.  We're not talking about balancing our ledger here.  We're speaking of the basic commandment/blessing paradigm.

I am suggesting that eternal law is in force but that the law of the atonement is not universal eternal law without the atonement. Without the atonement we are told that we would degenerate into devils. Without the atonement there would be no Light of Christ. Where would we be without that? Could we do anything to merit blessings under the law? I doubt it. We are fallen because we are in this world and we can’t use the better parts of (for lack of a better word) “constant” eternal law the way we did before we fell to this state. The laws we live under are Christ’s laws which are different to some degree (how much I do not know). I know no other way to justify the almost defeatist language in both the Bible and Book of Mormon about being fallen and being able to accomplish nothing on God’s behalf except through the atonement.

This leads to the obvious question of why we rejoiced to come here and lose so much and I have some private suspicions about that.

I don’t think we can talk of blessings versus commandments without talking about balance and ledgers. If the law is just why would the blessings be greater than the deed that awards them? It is clear they are out of proportion here and that that is through the atonement. This world is an aberration in terms of Eternal Law.

[Vanguard]

On 12/20/2020 at 6:51 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection? A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

IMO, no, we can't. We may still receive what we're asking for but not because God is now obligated to grant our request. Besides, we shouldn't be living righteously because we're questing for something but rather because it's a natural result of our reaching out to our God without any expectation of blessings. This natural result will 'quicken our minds' and benefits will come. What that result will be is according to His own good grace and not some preconceived notion about what we think should be the case our best intentions notwithstanding.

I should add that the 'quickening' IS the blessing and not whatever endgame desire we may have.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Vanguard

[JLHPROF]

53 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am suggesting that eternal law is in force but that the law of the atonement is not universal eternal law without the atonement. Without the atonement we are told that we would degenerate into devils. Without the atonement there would be no Light of Christ. Where would we be without that? Could we do anything to merit blessings under the law? I doubt it. We are fallen because we are in this world and we can’t use the better parts of (for lack of a better word) “constant” eternal law the way we did before we fell to this state. The laws we live under are Christ’s laws which are different to some degree (how much I do not know). I know no other way to justify the almost defeatist language in both the Bible and Book of Mormon about being fallen and being able to accomplish nothing on God’s behalf except through the atonement.

This leads to the obvious question of why we rejoiced to come here and lose so much and I have some private suspicions about that.

I don’t think we can talk of blessings versus commandments without talking about balance and ledgers. If the law is just why would the blessings be greater than the deed that awards them? It is clear they are out of proportion here and that that is through the atonement. This world is an aberration in terms of Eternal Law.

Thank you for a reasoned explanation that doesn't rely on evangelical sounding doctrines.  I am not sure I completely agree but I think I understand where you are coming from and you've given me something to think about in this Chicken vs Egg discussion.

[Ahab]

On 12/20/2020 at 5:51 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection?

Have you read this:  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-82-i-the-lord-am-bound-when-ye-do-what-i-say?lang=eng

On 12/20/2020 at 5:51 AM, AtlanticMike said:

A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

You mean like how God setup the atmosphere to allow rain on the just as well as the unjust vs. showering blessings that are predicated on obeying his laws, where only those who obey the laws get them?

Yeah, I think we can live in such a way that t a blessing will be granted to us because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection, or in other words, because of our obedience to the laws on which those blessings are predicated.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Hey calm, if you consider yourself non mechanical, there's always YouTube, you can learn anything from YouTube 🤣🤣. I just rebuilt a 5.4 liter Ford engine from YouTube from watching videos. !!WARNING!! This was an attempt at humor, if it didnt come off as such please disregard the entire post.

no problem...I have actually picked up a lot from youtube, taken apart my air conditioner and a few other things with its help. I am very mechanically inclined or was before the brain fog, but unfortunately a girl in the 60s and 70s had to take home ec and not workshop and it never occurred to my dad that my request for erector sets and such things were serious, though I did get a chemistry set and some prisms for Christmas. And I was too shy to go push myself into situations I could learn, even with my dad.  Trying to get it from books didn’t work like usual, for once I needed hands on learning. 

The only thing my dad taught me was how to redo a plug the week before I took off for BYU and an Engineering degree. I should have stuck with Physics. Engineering was not interesting enough to push me to pick up on my own the stuff I was missing...didn’t even know what a transistor was.   Too bad they didn’t have remedial mechanics/electronic classes.  Since my dad had assured me (incorrectly) I would never get a job as a physicist, I switched to my second love, psychology. And met my husband and I have a great family and plan on getting advanced degrees in physics in the next stage of life...unless a miracle happens and they cure my disorder. Then I am back in school as a full time student and in physics if my brain wakes up. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Thank you for a reasoned explanation that doesn't rely on evangelical sounding doctrines.  I am not sure I completely agree but I think I understand where you are coming from and you've given me something to think about in this Chicken vs Egg discussion.

I do my best never to sound like an evangelical.

[Calm]

On 12/21/2020 at 2:12 PM, Tacenda said:

Reading a conversation elsewhere, they mentioned hearing members of the church saying God now, more than Heavenly Father. I wonder why that is, is it that we're more like mainstream Christian faiths now? 

Is it more acceptable to say God vs. Heavenly Father, like in the past? I remember only saying Heavenly Father when referring to God.

For me, I prefer using the title God (the Father) rather than Heavenly Father now because it encompasses all of how I think of him and not just his Fatherhood aspects, though in the past I was in the habit of calling him Heavenly Father.

Plus calling God Father isn’t a comfort to me as while I love my dad dearly and at a distance he was always the most reassuring presence as I knew he would drop everything to rescue me and mine if needed and seemed pretty invulnerable so would always be able to or so it felt, when I was with him I wasn’t that relaxed and having fun that much. My mom and grandmother taught us too well that Dad needed to be cared for because our lives would be shattered if he was not there to provide for us, so I have always felt at least since a teen “on call” in his presence. He expected us to adjust to him, basically drop everything and do what he needed us to do....though he was not demanding or unfair about it. I blame his mom mostly as the world was meant to serve her sons or so It seemed at times. She had lost her loved little Jackie a few years before Dad was born and I think that and the depression created a fear of future loss for her and turned her into a protective lioness when it came to family.  We were both greatly benefited by her fierce love and harmed.

Plus Dad made a couple of major mistakes in his parenting techniques, so I feel emotionally safer that it is God who is my Heavenly Father rather than my Heavenly Father who is God, even though intellectually I don’t see such a separation. 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

For me, I prefer using the title God (the Father) rather than Heavenly Father now because it encompasses all of how I think of him and not just his Fatherhood aspects, though in the past I was in the habit of calling him Heavenly Father.

Plus calling God Father isn’t a comfort to me as while I love my dad dearly and at a distance he was always the most reassuring presence as I knew he would drop everything to rescue me and mine if needed and seemed pretty invulnerable so would always be able to or so it felt, when I was with him I wasn’t that relaxed and having fun that much. My mom and grandmother taught us too well that Dad needed to be cared for because our lives would be shattered if he was not there to provide for us, so I have always felt at least since a teen “on call” in his presence. He expected us to adjust to him, basically drop everything and do what he needed us to do....though he was not demanding or unfair about it. I blame his mom mostly as the world was meant to serve her sons or so It seemed at times. She had lost her loved little Jackie a few years before Dad was born and I think that and the depression created a fear of future loss for her and turned her into a protective lioness when it came to family.  We were both greatly benefited by her fierce love and harmed.

Plus Dad made a couple of major mistakes in his parenting techniques, so I feel emotionally safer that it is God who is my Heavenly Father rather than my Heavenly Father who is God, even though intellectually I don’t see such a separation. 

Interesting.  I don't associate the word "God" with anything in particular other than a particular kind of being and any person who is that kind of being even though when most people use the word God they are usually referring to our Father in heaven.

So the word "God" has less association with other titles or concepts such as Father, or Mother, or brother or sister, or anything else, even though when referring to that particular kind of being it refers to the greatest kind of being there is.

So maybe that is why you prefer the word "God" rather than the word "Father"?  When using the word God you don't have to associate it with any particular person but when using the word Father you might associate it with some other father you know.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, Ahab said:

When using the word God you don't have to associate it with any particular person

I associate it solely with the particular individual, God the Father...and “God the Son” is solely associated with Christ. There is nothing vague in the sense of the name for me. 
 

I associate father with many, many men. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Calm

[CV75]

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

CV75 I'll admit, I'm confused, I'm not trying to say faith and obedience operate in isolation. Also, if I'm praying for an immediate blessing, which I've never done, I would be praying for an immediate blessing so his will could be done, continously through me. The only reason I could see myself praying and asking for an immediate blessing, would be if there's something personal in my life that is taking up so much time on a day to day basis, that I've neglected to glorify him through my actions. I'm asking to be healed so I can get back to my normal routine as soon as possible. And yes, I would pray and ask him to take in consideration my works as proof of my worthiness and dedication in glorifying him and his message. I would have to be at rock bottom to do this, but I would because he's my father, and fathers listen and consider the best option for their children. If that makes me a heathen then so be it. 

Your reply was to my reply to another poster so there may be some confusion.

But yes, I understand you to be saying that faith and obedience operate together in praying for an immediate blessing so God’s will can continue to be done through you despite a momentary disruption for whatever reason (I thought neglect was an interesting choice of words).

Anything we cannot do for ourselves requires God’s mercy. Would not your petition for healing, whether physical or spiritual (forgiveness), rely on God’s mercy? Which is more important in this petition, an appeal to your worthy track record, or the removal of your immediate obstacle – especially if you are at rock-bottom?

Here’s an example from D&C 109:1, 68) “1 Thanks be to thy name, O Lord God of Israel, who keepest covenant and showest mercy unto thy servants who walk uprightly before thee, with all their hearts … O Lord, remember thy servant, Joseph Smith, Jun… and that he hath sincerely striven to do thy will.” When Joseph was at rock bottom (D&C 121), he appealed to the saints’ and their servants’ righteousness (“Remember thy suffering saints, O our God; and thy servants will rejoice in thy name forever.”), and the Lord reminded him of the forms of mercy that were not being recognized.

I'm sure you will probably have a chance to test all this out for yourself at some point.

I think the Dalton talk is covering a different kind of prayer and relationship, but I think I've commented quite enough on that!

[CV75]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Thank you for a reasoned explanation that doesn't rely on evangelical sounding doctrines.  I am not sure I completely agree but I think I understand where you are coming from and you've given me something to think about in this Chicken vs Egg discussion.

The role of "opposition in all things" provides the eternal alternative to "chicken vs. egg." The Lord's atonement reconciles all seemingly opposing principles.

[Damien the Leper]

Isa. 64:6;

Quote

We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

The polluted garment has also been translated as "filthy rags" and has been referenced to a woman's menstrual cloth. Therefore, our righteous deeds are still filth before God.

[pogi]

21 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Excellent response!  I love this board.  I want to break down a two of your points a bit.

1. "Christ’s atonement made it so those actions got that reward and without the atonement the actions would have been rewarded with nothing"
Are we suggesting that without the atonement obedience to any eternal law has no effect?  That without the atonement all cause/effect of gospel law ceases to operate?
I recognize that without Christ's atonement our entire existence would be pretty pointless since we couldn't be resurrected, couldn't progress, and could never pay the price of our sins.
But I'm not so sure that extends to eliminating cause and effect on our obedience to eternal law.  Laws have penalties and blessings.  That doesn't change if the atonement goes away.

2. "The reward is disproportionate to the actions taken"
I recognize the truthfulness of this when you are looking at the blessings of exaltation in their entirety, the great big gospel plan.
But what about the simple ones? https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/youth/learn/ss/commandments/blessings?lang=eng
For example - scripture says if we pay our tithing we will have our needs met.  We pay our tithing and our needs are met.  (Malachi 3:10-12)  God doesn't owe us temporal blessings, but we obey and we receive.

I don't see that proportion enters into it.  We're not talking about balancing our ledger here.  We're speaking of the basic commandment/blessing paradigm.

 

21 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am suggesting that eternal law is in force but that the law of the atonement is not universal eternal law without the atonement. Without the atonement we are told that we would degenerate into devils. Without the atonement there would be no Light of Christ. Where would we be without that? Could we do anything to merit blessings under the law? I doubt it. We are fallen because we are in this world and we can’t use the better parts of (for lack of a better word) “constant” eternal law the way we did before we fell to this state. The laws we live under are Christ’s laws which are different to some degree (how much I do not know). I know no other way to justify the almost defeatist language in both the Bible and Book of Mormon about being fallen and being able to accomplish nothing on God’s behalf except through the atonement.

This leads to the obvious question of why we rejoiced to come here and lose so much and I have some private suspicions about that.

I don’t think we can talk of blessings versus commandments without talking about balance and ledgers. If the law is just why would the blessings be greater than the deed that awards them? It is clear they are out of proportion here and that that is through the atonement. This world is an aberration in terms of Eternal Law.

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Mosiah 2 comes to mind:

Quote

 

20 I say unto you, my brethren, that if you should render all the ^athanks and ^bpraise which your whole soul has power to possess, to that God who has created you, and has kept and ^cpreserved you, and has caused that ye should ^drejoice, and has granted that ye should live in peace one with another—

21 I say unto you that if ye should ^aserve him who has created you from the beginning, and is ^bpreserving you from day to day, by lending you ^cbreath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own ^dwill, and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your ^ewhole souls yet ye would be ^funprofitable servants.

22 And behold, all that he ^arequires of you is to ^bkeep his commandments; and he has ^cpromised you that if ye would keep his commandments ye should prosper in the land; and he never doth ^dvary from that which he hath said; therefore, if ye do ^ekeep his ^fcommandments he doth bless you and prosper you.

23 And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him.

24 And secondly, he doth ^arequire that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately ^bbless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?

25 And now I ask, can ye say aught of yourselves? I answer you, Nay. Ye cannot say that ye are even as much as the dust of the earth; yet ye were ^acreated of the ^bdust of the earth; but behold, it ^cbelongeth to him who created you.

 

What can we independently "merit"?  To tie it back to the OP - what can supersede God's blessings of mercy?  Nothing.  It is impossible.  There is nothing we can do to come out of our eternal indebtedness.  We can't supersede that.  We don't earn anything.   

Edited December 24, 2020 by pogi

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but Mosiah 2 comes to mind:

What can we independently "merit"?  To tie it back to the OP - what can supersede God's blessings of mercy?  Nothing.  It is impossible.  There is nothing we can do to come out of our eternal indebtedness.  We can't supersede that.  We don't earn anything.   

Thanks pogi. Do you think our works are taken in consideration  through the atonement of Jesus Christ? I'm asking because I think we recieve what we merit. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thanks pogi. Do you think our works are taken in consideration  through the atonement of Jesus Christ? I'm asking because I think we receive what we merit. 

I absolutely think our works are taken into consideration, as blessings are "predicated" upon our works.  I wouldn't say that we "earn" or "merit" blessings however, but we do have to qualify for them, and that requires work. 

If we are eternally indebted, even for our very lives and ability to work, how do we get beyond that debt to truly merit anything in and of ourselves independent of the atonement?  Without the atonement, there would be no probationary period at all.  What could you independently "merit" in that scenario? Absolutely nothing.

Quote

man … could not merit anything of himself, Alma 22:14.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I absolutely think our works are taken into consideration, as blessings are "predicated" upon our works.  I wouldn't say that we "earn" or "merit" blessings however, but we do have to qualify for them, and that requires work.  Think of it like qualifying for unemployment benefits by doing the required work of filling out paper work, etc.  Does your "work" of filling out the application actually "merit" those benefits in any way?  No.  We are all beggars and will never fully merit the blessings of our labors and petitions.  

If we are eternally indebted, even for our very lives and ability to work, how do we get beyond that debt to truly merit anything in and of ourselves independent of the atonement?  Without the atonement, there would be no probationary period at all.  What could you independently "merit" in that scenario? Absolutely nothing.

 

I think of it by thinking of where all good things come from, including my knowledge of what is good.  That is, from my (and our) Father in heaven.  So even when I "merit" a blessing.. which is any good thing.. I get it only because God gives it to me.

Including when I do something upon which a blessing is predicated.

ALL good things are of God and come from God.

[Vanguard]

36 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think of it by thinking of where all good things come from, including my knowledge of what is good.  That is, from my (and our) Father in heaven.  So even when I "merit" a blessing.. which is any good thing.. I get it only because God gives it to me.

Including when I do something upon which a blessing is predicated.

ALL good things are of God and come from God.

That, and considering the reality that we are all immensely blessed on a regular basis whether we consciously 'take our cue' from diety or not. The blessings of God flow without cessation to us all.

[Stargazer]

On 12/20/2020 at 1:51 PM, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection? A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

Well, yes. Sort of.

We can control the outcomes of our actions to a certain degree by always striving to do the right thing.  It doesn't always work out as expected, however.  In our mortal lives, we can "do the right thing" and perhaps benefit temporally. For example, if I had had $10,000 to invest in Microsoft stock back when it first went public, and just "let it ride", I'd be a multimillionaire now. I could have gotten that $10K, mind you, but I didn't, and so I missed out. On the other hand, while I always drive my car responsibly (only two moving violations in my entire life), a single drunk driver on the road at the wrong time could easily take my life or destroy my health for the rest of my life. Almost completely out of my control. See, I kept the Word of Wisdom scrupulously, but someone who had perhaps never heard of it made my obedience bootless. Sure I get "credit" for obedience, but the unexpected result is almost as if I had gone out and drank myself into inebriation.

While mortal life can be a crapshoot, fortunately the blessings of eternity are exactly quid pro quo. 

[Vanguard]

32 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Well, yes. Sort of.

We can control the outcomes of our actions to a certain degree by always striving to do the right thing.  It doesn't always work out as expected, however.  In our mortal lives, we can "do the right thing" and perhaps benefit temporally. For example, if I had had $10,000 to invest in Microsoft stock back when it first went public, and just "let it ride", I'd be a multimillionaire now. I could have gotten that $10K, mind you, but I didn't, and so I missed out. On the other hand, while I always drive my car responsibly (only two moving violations in my entire life), a single drunk driver on the road at the wrong time could easily take my life or destroy my health for the rest of my life. Almost completely out of my control. See, I kept the Word of Wisdom scrupulously, but someone who had perhaps never heard of it made my obedience bootless. Sure I get "credit" for obedience, but the unexpected result is almost as if I had gone out and drank myself into inebriation.

While mortal life can be a crapshoot, fortunately the blessings of eternity are exactly quid pro quo. 

Very nicely put but that's why we would be well-served to focus less on the hoped for endgame and more on the journey. Your honoring the WoW has nothing to do with whether you get to avoid lung cancer and more on the experience of giving up that part of your life to your God. Therein lies the blessing. Regardless of however we leave this life, our efforts to connect with our God will definitely not leave us 'bootless' in this life or the next : )

[Stargazer]

On 12/26/2020 at 1:14 AM, Vanguard said:

Very nicely put but that's why we would be well-served to focus less on the hoped for endgame and more on the journey. Your honoring the WoW has nothing to do with whether you get to avoid lung cancer and more on the experience of giving up that part of your life to your God. Therein lies the blessing. Regardless of however we leave this life, our efforts to connect with our God will definitely not leave us 'bootless' in this life or the next : )

Yes, of course.

Plenty of people who had never smoked and were obedient to the Word of Wisdom have contracted lung cancer. But I covenanted to keep it, and so I do, regardless of the outcome.

There have been plenty of people who have said that for Christians to keep the law of God only in hope for reward, that is not the highest form of obedience. The highest form of obedience to keep God's law because it is right to do so, regardless of any reward.

I do expect that God will know whether one has obeyed in expectation of reward, or whether one has done so because obedience was right.

As for the bootlessness of keeping the Word of Wisdom in respect of some drunk killing me, well, my obedience didn't save me from the drunk, and thus it is bootless in respect of the mortal outcome (i.e. ineffectual or useless). But in respect of doing what is right, it is entirely effectual and useful.

But I suspect I have just restated it all one more time. 

[Islander]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:23 PM, AtlanticMike said:

I find it hilarious that you said  " you dont do opinion ". Do you actually believe that? This whole board is one giant OPINION and that's a FACT. What you've written, to me, fits perfectly with the opinion of most Baptist, methodist, Presbyteriams and so on. Yes, mormons also believe that we're saved by grace just like other Christians, but we also believe that we can gain a higher glory, exaltation, and that's based on grace plus works. Since you believe in "facts" here's one for you. Even though Christians  believe whole heartedly in christ like we do, it's not good enough to get them in the temple. Entrance into the temple is based on your obedience to the commandments. You have to sit before a common judge and be deemed worthy through your merits to gain entry into the temple. That's were our church diverges from typical Christian churches. Our works not only help us gain entry into the holy house of the lord but they also prove we're worthy of exaltation. Dont be scared of Mormonism islander! Here's a quote from David O McKay, " The fallacy that Jesus has done all for us, and live as we may, if on our deathbed,  we only believe ,we shall be saved in his glorious presence,  is most pernicious. Jesus Christ, the savior of the world, has given us the means whereby man may obtain eternal happiness  and peace in the kingdom of our father, but man most work out his own salvation through obedience to the eternal principles and ordinances of the gospel."  

You keep moving the goal post. My response to the OP had to do with your fallacy that "righteous behaviors" bring "blessings outside" of the purview of God. I quoted scriptures, not opinions, that we, are ALL sinful, fallen humans that other than a contrite heart and humble spirit bring NOTHING to the table. We are ALL indebted to our Heavenly Father for everything and I quoted scripture to the point. But you continue bent on yourm prideful belief that you can be "righteous", stand alone and independently of God and, somehow, derive blessings, from somewhere on account of that. That is what the pharisees believe in regards to the Law of Moses and Jesus. They thought that salvation came from "obedience" to the Law. The problem is NOBODY can keep the law perfectly and all the law does is point your sin and the fact that you can't keep it.

"For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Eccl 7:20

"The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psa 14:2-3

"Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Isa 6:5

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1 John 1:8-10

"Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities. I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me. And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted." 2 Ne 4:17-19 (One of my very favorite scriptures)

"O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires." Ether 3:2

So, believe what you may, but it is evidently clear from scripture that every blessing we receive comes by the grace of God. Without a broken heart and contrite spirit that manifest itself in quiet, faithful, humble obedience, we are nothing and are nothing before Him that is EVERYTHING. You see, your pride leads you to believe that you have any kind of righteousness that deserves anything. It all makes evident that you do not know the scriptures.

But, alas, I leave you with my favorite scripture from the Book of Mormon:

"And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart.  If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have [love]; for if he have not [love] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have [love]." Mor  7:43-44

The pure love of Christ in our hearts and radiating out to to touc everything and everyone is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. That is how and (the ONLY) way we become righteous.

Good luck with the rest.

[Islander]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:56 PM, JLHPROF said:

Actually I think your interpretation is very much opinion.

I quoted you scripture. Unless you can point to an interpretation that says otherwise, your view of my interpretation is ALSO an opinion