Can the holy habits and righteous routines of Mormonism bring immediate blessings, superseding Gods blessings of mercy.

[LDS Watchman]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Sometimes I wonder if the Church hasn't started to lean more evangelical Christian.

I sometimes wonder about this, too. 

The church's new music for youth reminds me of Evangelical worship music, both in the rythm and in the lyrics. 

It appears to me that the church is deemphasizing doctrine and strict obedience to the laws of God in favor of a more simplistic Evangelical message of loving the Savior and accepting his grace and mercy. The Evangelical message of faith, without so much emphasis on works, is more appealing to the younger generation, who tend to have a more "it doesn't really matter what you do as long as you love everyone" attitude. 

I've also noticed that Dieter F. Uchtdorf, who is one of my favorite GAs btw, has made several remarks that align better with the teachings of Evangelical Christianity than Mormonism.

[CV75]

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

When you made a covenant with the lord you became an agent to act as he would, as if he was walking the earth himself. You cant do that without knowing how to sincerely pray and receive answers. Also, you cant act on his behalf without knowing he has your back in everything you do, and everything you sincerely ask for that would help you accomplish your goal of representing him effectively. He wants to give you blessings so he's glorified. He cant and won't do that if you dont think your worth it.

I think what you are talking about here is the relationship we have when confidence that has waxed strong (D&C 121), when we are prepared (D&C 124:97) and we ask that which aligns with God's will (Helaman 10:5). There is another scripture about not asking amiss (2 Nephi 4:35) and the Holy Ghost inspiring or informing us what to pray for (I can't find it).

The way you presented the concept gives the impression that His will ("on our timeline) and humility ("cashing in" on our worthiness") are not factors. It came across as the Gospel of Cobra Kai.

I take the phrase, "not out of mercy but because you are worthy" from the talk to refer to the Lord's point of view, not ours. Because we apply His mercy (and receive His grace), we are worthy. When He sees that we are worthy (prepared, confident, and aligned to His will), there is no other option than to bless immediately.

So we don't even need to approach perfection in all points, just in those relevant to this dynamic between mercy and worthiness in which blessings are immediately granted. It is the same kind of dynamic as faith and knowledge as described in Alma 32. Faith begets knowledge which begets more faith and so on; applying mercy begets worthiness which opens the way to apply more mercy and so on.

Edited December 21, 2020 by CV75

[CV75]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't think the topic is achieving salvation without Christ.  I was under the impression it had to do with our ability to merit blessings.  Which scripturally is a true principle.  Sometimes I wonder if the Church hasn't started to lean more evangelical Christian.

Although it does say superceding mercy.  Our efforts can never supercede the mercy of the atonement.  Just to be clear.  But there are earned blessings too.

An example of "earned blessings" according to law: if I put an ice cube tray filled with water (or Kool-Aid vodka) in the freezer and wait a bit, I earn the blessing of ice cubes. If I run faster I earn the blessing of getting there sooner. These are physical or temporal laws. Korihor shared a lot of ways to earn blessings and all of them are valid within those particular laws (management, genius, strength, competition, independence, pleasure, etc.).

Can you give an example of '"earned blessings" according to eternal law?

Edited December 21, 2020 by CV75

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up D&C 82:10 yet, "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

The Lord will bless us because of obedience to a commandment. I personally do not read it as an all or nothing thing. Obedience to a specific commandment brings a specific blessing*. But, note, this verse does not deny the option of mercy from the Lord.


* I suspect many blessings are natural consequences of obedience and scarcely need providential intervention.

If the Atonement had never happened, would D&C 82:10 still apply?  

[Tacenda]

The blessings come because of the person making that happen by their actions. 

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

I think what you are talking about here is the relationship we have when confidence that has waxed strong (D&C 121), when we are prepared (D&C 124:97) and we ask that which aligns with God's will (Helaman 10:5). There is another scripture about not asking amiss (2 Nephi 4:35) and the Holy Ghost inspiring or informing us what to pray for (I can't find it).

The way you presented the concept gives the impression that His will ("on our timeline) and humility ("cashing in" on our worthiness") are not factors. It came across as the Gospel of Cobra Kai.

I take the phrase, "not out of mercy but because you are worthy" from the talk to refer to the Lord's point of view, not ours. Because we apply His mercy (and receive His grace), we are worthy. When He sees that we are worthy (prepared, confident, and aligned to His will), there is no other option than to bless immediately.

So we don't even need to approach perfection in all points, just in those relevant to this dynamic between mercy and worthiness in which blessings are immediately granted. It is the same kind of dynamic as faith and knowledge as described in Alma 32. Faith begets knowledge which begets more faith and so on; applying mercy begets worthiness which opens the way to apply more mercy and so on.

What I'm actually talking about is a true and honest relationship between heavenly parents and a child they sent here to be tested to see if we're worthy of living with them eternally. Every covenant we make with God is riddled with promises and blessings we recieve through obedience, on earth and in heaven. All I'm saying is, every child of God approaches him in prayer asking for his divine mercy to shine upon them so they can be blessed. But I also think for the truly obedient defenders of christ, there's another way we can approach him in prayer. We can kneel and ask to be judged through our obedience, and if found worthy, we will be blessed immediately so there's no pause in our earthly work to glorify him.

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

What I'm actually talking about is a true and honest relationship between heavenly parents and a child they sent here to be tested to see if we're worthy of living with them eternally. Every covenant we make with God is riddled with promises and blessings we recieve through obedience, on earth and in heaven. All I'm saying is, every child of God approaches him in prayer asking for his divine mercy to shine upon them so they can be blessed. But I also think for the truly obedient defenders of christ, there's another way we can approach him in prayer. We can kneel and ask to be judged through our obedience, and if found worthy, we will be blessed immediately so there's no pause in our earthly work to glorify him.

These are two interesting characterizations which I suppose are not mutually exclusive and which are expressed in varying degrees:

All of us (the “called”) approach God in prayer asking for His divine mercy to shine upon us so we can be blessed in His good time and obtain succor of various kinds.

In addition, the “chosen” approach God in prayer asking for His divine judgement to shine upon us so we will be blessed immediately and continue to succor others unto His glory.

I assume you mean that both of these forms of relationship can be expressed attitudinally in our daily life (our walk and conversation) as well as formal prayer. Sister Dalton wasn’t very specific in her talk, but from your experience, do you have an example of appealing to your worthiness while requesting and obtaining God's judgment and immediate blessing?

[AtlanticMike]

24 minutes ago, CV75 said:

These are two interesting characterizations which I suppose are not mutually exclusive and which are expressed in varying degrees:

 

All of us (the “called”) approach God in prayer asking for His divine mercy to shine upon us so we can be blessed in His good time and obtain succor of various kinds.

 

In addition, the “chosen” approach God in prayer asking for His divine judgement to shine upon us so we will be blessed immediately and continue to succor others unto His glory.

 

I assume you mean that both of these forms of relationship can be expressed attitudinally in our daily life (our walk and conversation) as well as formal prayer. Sister Dalton wasn’t very specific in her talk, but from your experience, do you have an example of appealing to your worthiness while requesting and obtaining God's judgment and immediate blessing?

 

No sir, fortunately I dont have an example. I've been very lucky and blessed in my life, I haven't felt like I've ever needed an immediate blessing. Though I am a sinner daily and have received countless blessings through his divine mercy. 

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

Can you give an example of '"earned blessings" according to eternal law?

Well, assuming we take God at his word (ie, "when you do what I say I am bound"):

Exodus 20:12

Moroni 7:4

D&C 132:19

D&C 64:23

D&C 89:18-21

Pretty much anywhere God promises a blessing for obedience to a law or principle.

Unless we can't take God at His word.  That's the very principle behind a covenant.  We do what God says, God grants us his blessing.
In fact the atonement itself, including the New and Everlasting Covenant in Christ features a promise on our part and an earned blessing if we keep our covenant.

The ONLY part we don't have a part in our actions is balancing the scales as it were, since no matter how hard we try we can never be justified by our own efforts.
However, we can and should keep our covenants and the attending laws and commandments in order to "earn" the attached blessings and avoid any attached penalties.

Edited December 21, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

Reading a conversation elsewhere, they mentioned hearing members of the church saying God now, more than Heavenly Father. I wonder why that is, is it that we're more like mainstream Christian faiths now? 

Is it more acceptable to say God vs. Heavenly Father, like in the past? I remember only saying Heavenly Father when referring to God.

[JLHPROF]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the Atonement had never happened, would D&C 82:10 still apply?  

It would have to if God were to remain as God.

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Reading a conversation elsewhere, they mentioned hearing members of the church saying God now, more than Heavenly Father. I wonder why that is, is it that we're more like mainstream Christian faiths now? 

Is it more acceptable to say God vs. Heavenly Father, like in the past? I remember only saying Heavenly Father when referring to God.

I don't know if it's more acceptable.  We are constantly told we are children of a Heavenly Father.  I'm not sure a lot of members still believe that is a literal Fatherhood in any sense.
It feels like many are widening the gap between God and man into two separate species.

[AtlanticMike]

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Reading a conversation elsewhere, they mentioned hearing members of the church saying God now, more than Heavenly Father. I wonder why that is, is it that we're more like mainstream Christian faiths now? 

Is it more acceptable to say God vs. Heavenly Father, like in the past? I remember only saying Heavenly Father when referring to God.

Hi tacenda, I have always said God, i love the word God. But i do you use Heavenly Father. I also use Heavenly parents more than most of the mormons I know, I cant stand that we dont talk about Heavenly Mother. Also, I love the word Mormon. I'll probably be judged harshly for it when I die, because I will not give up the word Mormon, igrew up in the 80s and 90s when president Hinckley said mormon meant "more good" to him. I'm sticking with that.

[Ahab]

13 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Hi tacenda, I have always said God, i love the word God. But i do you use Heavenly Father. I also use Heavenly parents more than most of the mormons I know, I cant stand that we dont talk about Heavenly Mother. Also, I love the word Mormon. I'll probably be judged harshly for it when I die, because I will not give up the word Mormon, i grew up in the 80s and 90s when president Hinckley said mormon meant "more good" to him. I'm sticking with that.

If by "Mormon" you mean member of The Church of Jesus Christ.  Of Latter-day Saints.  I have no problem with that.

It does irk me a little bit though when people don't capitalize the letter T when referring to the only true church of Jesus Christ in all of existence.  The one that I am a member of and that Joseph Smith restored when he was authorized by Jesus Christ.

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Hi tacenda, I have always said God, i love the word God. But i do you use Heavenly Father. I also use Heavenly parents more than most of the mormons I know, I cant stand that we dont talk about Heavenly Mother. Also, I love the word Mormon. I'll probably be judged harshly for it when I die, because I will not give up the word Mormon, igrew up in the 80s and 90s when president Hinckley said mormon meant "more good" to him. I'm sticking with that.

I'm the same, and I think Mormon is still accepted, people still use it. You remind me of this guy that I listened to recently on the Mormon Land podcast named McKay Coppins. In his article he mentions "Mormon" 37 times. Just because it was difficult not to. I'm going to post this podcast on the other thread about this subject. 

 

The Atlantic’s McKay Coppins on the LDS Church’s quest for approval and its future | Episode 161

In a lengthy essay in The Atlantic posted online Wednesday, reporter McKay Coppins explores The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its history as “The Most American Religion.”In a subtitle, the article states: “Perpetual outsiders, Mormons spent 200 years assimilating to a certain national ideal — only to find their country is in an identity crisis. What will the third century of the faith look like?”Coppins’ piece looks backward and forward, not as a dispassionate observer, but through his own lens as a practicing Latter-day Saint. He talks with scholars and politicians, insiders and outsiders, leaders and laypeople, even church President Russell M. Nelson. In this week’s podcast, Coppins talks about the path Mormonism has followed and what steps the Utah-based faith could — and should — take as it treads into its next hundred years.

[AtlanticMike]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

If by "Mormon" you mean member of The Church of Jesus Christ.  Of Latter-day Saints.  I have no problem with that.

It does irk me a little bit though when people don't capitalize the letter T when referring to the only true church of Jesus Christ in all of existence.  The one that I am a member of and that Joseph Smith restored when he was authorized by Jesus Christ.

Well thank you for saying you dont have a problem with the word Mormon. My mom gets on me all the time about saying Mormon ever since pres. Nelson asked us to use the official name. 

[CV75]

6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

No sir, fortunately I dont have an example. I've been very lucky and blessed in my life, I haven't felt like I've ever needed an immediate blessing. Though I am a sinner daily and have received countless blessings through his divine mercy. 

I think perhaps there may be a tendency to see petitions for blessings as transactional rather than relational, but there are both kinds. You mentioned "a true and honest relationship between heavenly parents and a child" which would accommodate the latter type of petition (relational). In this case, the relationship itself can be the immediate (and ongoing) blessing. The relationship - blessing also averts many crises in the hour of need, and assuages the sense of needing an immediate blessing for oneself.

And then there is the type you were pointing to, which is consciously sought. This has to be a not for oneself but for others, as you pointed out, to glorify God. Here is my experience: In the occasional situation where another person is in crisis and I know I can do nothing about it, I have found that prayer can "magically" resolve the crisis fairly quickly if not absolutely immediately. The more this happens, the more confidence I have in such a prayer.

I do not remember my exact sentiments during these moments except poignant eternal/spiritual concern for the person, inadequacy to help on my own, and faith that the Spirit will work with this person. It would be reasonable to beg for mercy in the person's behalf, but I don't clearly recall doing so -- perhaps that is the Spirit's way of telling me they are already worthy enough. The blessing of having the crisis resolved far exceeds any sense of confirmation of my worthiness. I suppose I carry a subconscious bias that I am worthy enough (well, progressing, albeit slowly but that doesn't matter), which I suppose is part of that relationship and relational blessing. But I am always thankful for His mercy after the events requiring His immediate blessing, and I express that thanks in a transactional way as well, which I think speaks to the worthiness-mercy dynamic I described above.

Edited December 22, 2020 by CV75

[CV75]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, assuming we take God at his word (ie, "when you do what I say I am bound"):

Exodus 20:12

Moroni 7:4

D&C 132:19

D&C 64:23

D&C 89:18-21

Pretty much anywhere God promises a blessing for obedience to a law or principle.

Unless we can't take God at His word.  That's the very principle behind a covenant.  We do what God says, God grants us his blessing.
In fact the atonement itself, including the New and Everlasting Covenant in Christ features a promise on our part and an earned blessing if we keep our covenant.

The ONLY part we don't have a part in our actions is balancing the scales as it were, since no matter how hard we try we can never be justified by our own efforts.
However, we can and should keep our covenants and the attending laws and commandments in order to "earn" the attached blessings and avoid any attached penalties.

I'm glad you put "earn" in quotes!

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It would have to if God were to remain as God.

Why?

[Islander]

On 12/20/2020 at 6:51 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection? A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

That borders on blasphemy, on one hand and pharisaic doctrine on the other. Either you have not paid attention in Sunday school or you have bough something that somebody is selling that is NOT the Gospel of Christ. Every blessing that we receive, temporal or spiritual comes from the hands of God. We can not earn anything from personal effort when it comes to the things of God. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isa. 64:6. The Savior quoting the Psalmist said: "why do you call me good. No one is good but God alone". Luke 18:19. There is absolutely nothing that we can earn in terms of merit of our own. Our salvation and eternal life the the work and the glory of God, not ours. I know this most be crushing to your ego but that is what the scripture says.

There is communal grace that God bestow upon ALL His children, even the unbelievers and the wicked. The rains falls on the just and the "unjust". There is beauty all around that all enjoy. in this country, especially, we enjoy economic and temporal security like in few other places on earth. That is undeserved favor that we ALL receive. There are personal achievements on account of family history, economic means, intellect hard work and sound normative choices. But they all exist and flow from the grace of God. He is patient and benevolent. But to say that you, independent of God can do and achieve anything would be equal to you trying to live a normal life without breathing oxygen from your surrounding. Mosiah said best, and I paraphrase: all your effort amounts to noting before the holiness of God. We are indebted to Him forever. (Mos 2:21)

Realize that even the faith that you claim to have comes from God. It is the Spirit that stirs up the faith in us and provide a testimony of the Savior. 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" Ephe 2:8-9

 

 

[AtlanticMike]

9 hours ago, Islander said:

That borders on blasphemy, on one hand and pharisaic doctrine on the other. Either you have not paid attention in Sunday school or you have bough something that somebody is selling that is NOT the Gospel of Christ. Every blessing that we receive, temporal or spiritual comes from the hands of God. We can not earn anything from personal effort when it comes to the things of God. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isa. 64:6. The Savior quoting the Psalmist said: "why do you call me good. No one is good but God alone". Luke 18:19. There is absolutely nothing that we can earn in terms of merit of our own. Our salvation and eternal life the the work and the glory of God, not ours. I know this most be crushing to your ego but that is what the scripture says.

There is communal grace that God bestow upon ALL His children, even the unbelievers and the wicked. The rains falls on the just and the "unjust". There is beauty all around that all enjoy. in this country, especially, we enjoy economic and temporal security like in few other places on earth. That is undeserved favor that we ALL receive. There are personal achievements on account of family history, economic means, intellect hard work and sound normative choices. But they all exist and flow from the grace of God. He is patient and benevolent. But to say that you, independent of God can do and achieve anything would be equal to you trying to live a normal life without breathing oxygen from your surrounding. Mosiah said best, and I paraphrase: all your effort amounts to noting before the holiness of God. We are indebted to Him forever. (Mos 2:21)

Realize that even the faith that you claim to have comes from God. It is the Spirit that stirs up the faith in us and provide a testimony of the Savior. 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" Ephe 2:8-9

 

 

Billy Graham!!!! Is that you??? How are you contacting me from spirit prison?? 🤣🤣 just kidding Islander. But you do remind me alot of my baptist uncle who used to come over for hours and bible bash my Dad. Mormonism is the red headed step child of Christianity. We dont believe we were formed from dirt and God breathed life into us, we believe we lived with not only a Heavenly Father but also a Heavenly Mother, that right there is considered blasphemy to the rest of the Christian world. Infact, most of what we believe is considered blasphemy to Christians, your the one that's confused or possibly frightened to stand up and proclaim your LATTER DAY SAINTNESS! Heavenly Mother and Father already deemed you worthy in the spirit world before you came here. You fought for them and you were so noble in your quest to protect them they reserved you till the LATTER DAYS because they knew you would again do everything in your power to  uphold the gospel. Why is so hard for mormons to understand!?!? All your Heavenly parents are asking is for you to follow through and keep proving your worthy while here on earth. Your almost there, the trial is almost over. You just have to make it to the finish line. I must admit, after talking to most of you guys I'm starting to think I should of grown up in the 1930s. What the heck is going on with Mormonism?? 

Edited December 22, 2020 by AtlanticMike
Spelling

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

That borders on blasphemy, on one hand and pharisaic doctrine on the other. Either you have not paid attention in Sunday school or you have bough something that somebody is selling that is NOT the Gospel of Christ. Every blessing that we receive, temporal or spiritual comes from the hands of God. We can not earn anything from personal effort when it comes to the things of God. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isa. 64:6. The Savior quoting the Psalmist said: "why do you call me good. No one is good but God alone". Luke 18:19. There is absolutely nothing that we can earn in terms of merit of our own. Our salvation and eternal life the the work and the glory of God, not ours. I know this most be crushing to your ego but that is what the scripture says.

There is communal grace that God bestow upon ALL His children, even the unbelievers and the wicked. The rains falls on the just and the "unjust". There is beauty all around that all enjoy. in this country, especially, we enjoy economic and temporal security like in few other places on earth. That is undeserved favor that we ALL receive. There are personal achievements on account of family history, economic means, intellect hard work and sound normative choices. But they all exist and flow from the grace of God. He is patient and benevolent. But to say that you, independent of God can do and achieve anything would be equal to you trying to live a normal life without breathing oxygen from your surrounding. Mosiah said best, and I paraphrase: all your effort amounts to noting before the holiness of God. We are indebted to Him forever. (Mos 2:21)

Realize that even the faith that you claim to have comes from God. It is the Spirit that stirs up the faith in us and provide a testimony of the Savior. 

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" Ephe 2:8-9

 

 

Wow.  I feel like one of the early Mormon missionaries running up against an evangelical preacher when I read this.

[The Nehor]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the Atonement had never happened, would D&C 82:10 still apply?  

Nope. Trying to spin humanity getting some reward from God outside of the atonement of Christ is futile.

[Islander]

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Billy Graham!!!! Is that you??? How are you contacting me from spirit prison?? 🤣🤣 just kidding Islander. But you do remind me alot of my baptist uncle who used to come over for hours and bible bash my Dad. Mormonism is the red headed step child of Christianity. We dont believe we were formed from dirt and God breathed life into us, we believe we lived with not only a Heavenly Father but also a Heavenly Mother, that right there is considered blasphemy to the rest of the Christian world. Infact, most of what we believe is considered blasphemy to Christians, your the one that's confused or possibly frightened to stand up and proclaim your LATTER DAY SAINTNESS! Heavenly Mother and Father already deemed you worthy in the spirit world before you came here. You fought for them and you were so noble in your quest to protect them they reserved you till the LATTER DAYS because they knew you would again do everything in your power to  uphold the gospel. Why is so hard for mormons to understand!?!? All your Heavenly parents are asking is for you to follow through and keep proving your worthy while here on earth. Your almost there, the trial is almost over. You just have to make it to the finish line. I must admit, after talking to most of you guys I'm starting to think I should of grown up in the 1930s. What the heck is going on with Mormonism?? 

I have no idea you're talking about. I pointed out that according to scripture; all scripture, mind you, we are ALL unworthy creatures indebted to our Heavenly Father for ALL that we have and are. You can not earn anything upon personal merit. The idea that thru personal so-called "righteousness" you can derive anything from anywhere is just prideful talk. I pointed to that on several scriptures but you decided to ignore it and launched into some disjointed diatribe rather than reasoned, scripture based argument. That is precisely what the pharisees believed at the time of Jesus and the Savior destroyed their corrupted theology in one speech. Read Matthew 5. And while you are at it Check out Moroni 7:43-48 and see if I'm not right.

Good luck

[Islander]

14 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Wow.  I feel like one of the early Mormon missionaries running up against an evangelical preacher when I read this.

That is because you do not know the scriptures. I don't do opinion. The scriptures, ancient and modern hold to the principles I just outlined. Feel free to disagree.