Can the holy habits and righteous routines of Mormonism bring immediate blessings, superseding Gods blessings of mercy.

[AtlanticMike]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection? A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

[JLHPROF]

D&C 130 would indicate of course we can merit blessings from God by obedience to law rather than simply by mercy and grace.

However the need for the atonement clearly shows any such earned blessings would come far short of even the lowest resurrection and salvation.

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection? A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

I would say no, because the gospel could not be known and acted upon without His divine mercy (and grace) in the first place, or at any point on any timeline. All the laws that we act upon could not have been transduced into this world without His Atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world and before the foundation of the world.

[Kenngo1969]

I think CV75 is right.  See 2 Nephi 9.  It is only because Christ died for us that we are subject to Him.  Otherwise, we would be subjects of the Devil.

[AtlanticMike]

17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I think CV75 is right.  See 2 Nephi 9.  It is only because Christ died for us that we are subject to Him.  Otherwise, we would be subjects of the Devil.

Kenngo1969 I use to think the same as you and cv75 and lately I've been wondering if jLHprof is right, like he said, d&c 130 says blessings are received by obedience to the law. Check out this paragraph from a talk that was given by Elaine S Dalton in the saturday afternoon session of the October 2006 General Conference. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yes, that's exactly what I'm asking. Can we live in such a way that a blessing will be granted to us, not out of Gods divine mercy, but because of our living the gospel almost to a point of perfection? A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

In theory if you lived a sinless life. Only one person on this Earth has done it and we are promised it will not happen again while the world is still fallen at least.

[AtlanticMike]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

In theory if you lived a sinless life. Only one person on this Earth has done it and we are promised it will not happen again while the world is still fallen at least.

Yes sir I agree, that's why I said almost perfect. Thank you for responding. 

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Yes sir I agree, that's why I said almost perfect. Thank you for responding. 

Almost perfect wouldn’t cut it. You would have to be legitimately sinless.

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Almost perfect wouldn’t cut it. You would have to be legitimately sinless.

I don't think the topic is achieving salvation without Christ.  I was under the impression it had to do with our ability to merit blessings.  Which scripturally is a true principle.  Sometimes I wonder if the Church hasn't started to lean more evangelical Christian.

Although it does say superceding mercy.  Our efforts can never supercede the mercy of the atonement.  Just to be clear.  But there are earned blessings too.

Edited December 20, 2020 by JLHPROF

[CV75]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Kenngo1969 I use to think the same as you and cv75 and lately I've been wondering if jLHprof is right, like he said, d&c 130 says blessings are received by obedience to the law. Check out this paragraph from a talk that was given by Elaine S Dalton in the saturday afternoon session of the October 2006 General Conference. 

Assuming the writer is reporting his counsel correctly, I see it as a synthesis of Mosiah 2: 20-24 (he immediately blesses the obedient) and D&C 82:3 (unto whom much is given, much is required).

Any laws covered in D&C 130:19-21 (which also aligns with 82:3), whether natural, physical, spiritual or eternal, and our ability to use them, would not be in this world in teh first place without God's mercy.

[AtlanticMike]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Almost perfect wouldn’t cut it. You would have to be legitimately sinless.

Not necessarily, God isnt just a God of mercy he's also a God of justice. And I think thats what Pres.Hinckley is telling sister Dalton, that some blessings are received through his law of justice not his Devine mercy. I mean,  look at what she's saying, she's saying her and husband have gone before God through prayer and asked to be judged on their merits, their holy habits and righteous routines and if god judged them to be worthy, he blessed them with immediate blessings. They are admitting that God worked within their timeline,  not the other way around. If this is so I think this should be welcomed and used to uplift members of the church.

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Not necessarily, God isnt just a God of mercy he's also a God of justice. And I think thats what Pres.Hinckley is telling sister Dalton, that some blessings are received through his law of justice not his Devine mercy. I mean,  look at what she's saying, she's saying her and husband have gone before God through prayer and asked to be judged on their merits, their holy habits and righteous routines and if god judged them to be worthy, he blessed them with immediate blessings. They are admitting that God worked within their timeline,  not the other way around. If this is so I think this should be welcomed and used to uplift members of the church.

Yet mercy is the foundation of all that follows in a fallen world. Otherwise, justice would have ended it post-haste. Also, I think her remarks are more about preparation than earning (D&C 124:97). I also think it is important to note that worthiness is a function of grace, not mercy or justice, but that is not the scope of her talk.

[longview]

9 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

A blessing of mercy being a gift from God he bestows on all his children whenever he sees fit and on his timeline, vs a blessing that we are asking for, more or less, on our timeline, granted by "cashing in" on our worthiness. 

There is NO such thing as "cashing in" on our worthiness.  Not even Jesus did that (though He was entirely sinless).  Everything thing He did was to fulfill the WILL of His Father in Heaven.

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I was under the impression it had to do with our ability to merit blessings.  Which scripturally is a true principle

According to Mosiah 2, we are actually unprofitable servants.  We are always heavily in debt to God.  Even when we obey a commandment, the Lord immediately blesses us.  So we go further and further into debt with the "bounty" of living the Gospel.

Biblical characters have had serious trials and afflictions which God used for further refining and purification.  If we gain "immediate" blessings because we "asked" for them, then it is only because living a righteous life naturally brings overflowing blessings but that does not mean God will cease to test us in mortality.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't think the topic is achieving salvation without Christ.  I was under the impression it had to do with our ability to merit blessings.  Which scripturally is a true principle.  Sometimes I wonder if the Church hasn't started to lean more evangelical Christian.

Although it does say superceding mercy.  Our efforts can never supercede the mercy of the atonement.  Just to be clear.  But there are earned blessings too.

Yeah, superseding mercy implies to me a merit that does not come through Christ and all our merit right now comes through Christ because we don’t merit anything.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Not necessarily, God isnt just a God of mercy he's also a God of justice. And I think thats what Pres.Hinckley is telling sister Dalton, that some blessings are received through his law of justice not his Devine mercy. I mean,  look at what she's saying, she's saying her and husband have gone before God through prayer and asked to be judged on their merits, their holy habits and righteous routines and if god judged them to be worthy, he blessed them with immediate blessings. They are admitting that God worked within their timeline,  not the other way around. If this is so I think this should be welcomed and used to uplift members of the church.

By justice we all deserve hell. Talking about deserving much else on the merits of justice alone seems unsupported to me.

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

 because we don’t merit anything.

I find this unscriptural.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I find this unscriptural.

14 And since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ atone for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory; and Aaron did expound all these things unto the king.

[bluebell]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I find this unscriptural.

Considering that because of the Fall we would be lost at birth without Christ, what can we merit that our ability to receive does not depend on the Atonement?

[AtlanticMike]

When you made a covenant with the lord you became an agent to act as he would, as if he was walking the earth himself. You cant do that without knowing how to sincerely pray and receive answers. Also, you cant act on his behalf without knowing he has your back in everything you do, and everything you sincerely ask for that would help you accomplish your goal of representing him effectively. He wants to give you blessings so he's glorified. He cant and won't do that if you dont think your worth it. 

[JLHPROF]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Considering that because of the Fall we would be lost at birth without Christ, what can we merit that our ability to receive does not depend on the Atonement?

I think scripture is clear that we can gain blessings by obedience to law and God himself says when we obey he is bound.  Otherwise commandments serve no purpose.

This does not in any way contradict our inability to merit salvation, or to overcome the fall alone.  These are two separate issues.

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I think scripture is clear that we can gain blessings by obedience to law and God himself says when we obey he is bound.  Otherwise commandments serve no purpose.

This does not in any way contradict our inability to merit salvation, or to overcome the fall alone.  These are two separate issues.

I don’t see them as separate, since without the Atonement and the Savior’s grace I don’t believe we would be able to be obedient to God’s laws. I believe it is the Atonement that enables us to be worthy of any blessing through obedience. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

20 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I believe it is the Atonement that enables us to be worthy of any blessing through obedience. 

Absolutely. The Book of Mormon couldn't be clearer on this point, in my opinion. And Elder Renlund preached on this very topic in General Conference last year:

Quote

My dear brothers and sisters, our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ desire to bless each of us. The question of how to access and obtain those blessings has been the subject of theological debate and discussion for centuries. Some contend that blessings are completely earned; we receive them only through our works. Others argue that God has already chosen who He will bless and how—and that these determinations are unchangeable. Both positions are fundamentally flawed. Blessings from heaven are neither earned by frenetically accruing “good deed coupons” nor by helplessly waiting to see if we win the blessing lottery. No, the truth is much more nuanced but more appropriate for the relationship between a loving Heavenly Father and His potential heirs—us. Restored truth reveals that blessings are never earned, but faith-inspired actions on our part, both initial and ongoing, are essential.

In my case, I have clear instructions outside of the Standard Works and the teaching of the living prophets. My patriarchal blessing directs me to bear witness to all the world that everything I am that is good along with everything I have that is good is a gift from the Father in and through the grace, mercy and merits of His Holy Son Jesus. I am deeply grateful that my life has been designed to teach me that truth. 

[carbon dioxide]

14 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Kenngo1969 I use to think the same as you and cv75 and lately I've been wondering if jLHprof is right, like he said, d&c 130 says blessings are received by obedience to the law. Check out this paragraph from a talk that was given by Elaine S Dalton in the saturday afternoon session of the October 2006 General Conference. 

I agree with what is said here.  Mercy comes from when sin.  All of us sin from time to time so we need the love and mercy of the atonement to make us clean.  However God wants us to bless us when were not sinning but living righteously.  Blessings of mercy will come but may take time. If we live righteously, we will be blessed not out of his mercy of repenting of something but because we have been doing the right thing.  Those blessings might come more immediately.  When I think of great men like Enoch or Alma, they lived so righteously than they could do many great things.  If we get to the point of aligning our will to God, we need mercy much less as we are not screwing up that much.  Blessings would based more on obedience and doing the will of God continually.  Mercy is not needed when we are doing the right thing.

[AtlanticMike]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, superseding mercy implies to me a merit that does not come through Christ and all our merit right now comes through Christ because we don’t merit anything.

Why do you think you dont merit anything? Through the teachings of the gospel you've learned that in the spirit world you were reserved to come here in the latter days because of your dedication to christ. He saw you as a noble spirit who would fight for him while here on earth. Have you forgotten that? Do you think he would ask you to come down here and represent him and at the same time treat you like everyone else and only bless you through his divine mercy? Christ has offered us saints more in just about every aspect of our lives than everyone else, that's why we have a mission field, so others can take advantage of his plan and have an opportunity to glorify him. The name of the church says it all nehor, your a Latter Day Saint! Your given the opportunity to be married/sealed in the only way possible that will satisfy the divine decree of god, unlike everyone else. Your given the opportunity to pay tithing to god in the only way that will satisfy the divine decree of god, unlike everyone else. And most importantly, your given the opportunity to be baptized in the only way that will satisfy god and start your journey back to him, unlike everyone else. Mercy plays a huge part in our ability to be in the presence of Heavenly Father again, but as mormons and representatives of christ, we're also given the opportunity to receive immediate blessings when we need them. That way there's no pause in our work to glorify him.  So yes, I believe God grants immediate blessings to those who have an interest in not stopping his work. The blessing isnt just for the person asking, ultimately, the immediate blessing is granted so Gods work can move forward. 

[Nofear]

I'm surprised that nobody has brought up D&C 82:10 yet, "I, the Lord, am bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."

The Lord will bless us because of obedience to a commandment. I personally do not read it as an all or nothing thing. Obedience to a specific commandment brings a specific blessing*. But, note, this verse does not deny the option of mercy from the Lord.


* I suspect many blessings are natural consequences of obedience and scarcely need providential intervention. (Edit to add example: living the law of chastity as a teenager yields the blessing (among many others) of no unwanted pregnancies.)

Edited December 22, 2020 by Nofear