AtlanticMike Posted December 31, 2020 Author Posted December 31, 2020 8 hours ago, Islander said: You keep moving the goal post. My response to the OP had to do with your fallacy that "righteous behaviors" bring "blessings outside" of the purview of God. I quoted scriptures, not opinions, that we, are ALL sinful, fallen humans that other than a contrite heart and humble spirit bring NOTHING to the table. We are ALL indebted to our Heavenly Father for everything and I quoted scripture to the point. But you continue bent on yourm prideful belief that you can be "righteous", stand alone and independently of God and, somehow, derive blessings, from somewhere on account of that. That is what the pharisees believe in regards to the Law of Moses and Jesus. They thought that salvation came from "obedience" to the Law. The problem is NOBODY can keep the law perfectly and all the law does is point your sin and the fact that you can't keep it. "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Eccl 7:20 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psa 14:2-3 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Isa 6:5 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1 John 1:8-10 "Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities. I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me. And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted." 2 Ne 4:17-19 (One of my very favorite scriptures) "O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires." Ether 3:2 So, believe what you may, but it is evidently clear from scripture that every blessing we receive comes by the grace of God. Without a broken heart and contrite spirit that manifest itself in quiet, faithful, humble obedience, we are nothing and are nothing before Him that is EVERYTHING. You see, your pride leads you to believe that you have any kind of righteousness that deserves anything. It all makes evident that you do not know the scriptures. But, alas, I leave you with my favorite scripture from the Book of Mormon: "And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart. If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have [love]; for if he have not [love] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have [love]." Mor 7:43-44 The pure love of Christ in our hearts and radiating out to to touc everything and everyone is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. That is how and (the ONLY) way we become righteous. Good luck with the rest. You said. (The only) way we become righteous. My question is, why do you limit God? You have a narrow view on how he can bring his children back to righteousness.
Islander Posted January 3, 2021 Posted January 3, 2021 On 12/31/2020 at 5:05 AM, AtlanticMike said: You said. (The only) way we become righteous. My question is, why do you limit God? You have a narrow view on how he can bring his children back to righteousness. I did not limit God. The Savior spoke. When He said that (true) love was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, He defined perfection and true righteousness. When His prophet says that the pure love of Christ in our hearts is the real hallmark of His true followers and that unless that love is found in us we will not see the kingdom of God; I believe him. I'm just quoting scripture. In the other hand, you are trying to come up with your own brand of "righteousness".
JLHPROF Posted January 3, 2021 Posted January 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Islander said: I did not limit God. The Savior spoke. When He said that (true) love was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets, He defined perfection and true righteousness. When His prophet says that the pure love of Christ in our hearts is the real hallmark of His true followers and that unless that love is found in us we will not see the kingdom of God; I believe him. I'm just quoting scripture. In the other hand, you are trying to come up with your own brand of "righteousness". I still find your approach doctrinally opposed to the restored gospel (no matter how much you claim your interpretation of scripture is what the writer meant). This kind of "we can do nothing worth mentioning, Christ is everything, all you need is love" approach is not Mormonism. Straight out of evangelical or even non-denominational Christianity. You are welcome to that belief of course, but don't pass it off as the gospel restored in this dispensation. The Prophet Joseph restored a much further reaching body of eternal truths.
AtlanticMike Posted January 4, 2021 Author Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) On 12/30/2020 at 10:32 PM, Islander said: You keep moving the goal post. My response to the OP had to do with your fallacy that "righteous behaviors" bring "blessings outside" of the purview of God. I quoted scriptures, not opinions, that we, are ALL sinful, fallen humans that other than a contrite heart and humble spirit bring NOTHING to the table. We are ALL indebted to our Heavenly Father for everything and I quoted scripture to the point. But you continue bent on yourm prideful belief that you can be "righteous", stand alone and independently of God and, somehow, derive blessings, from somewhere on account of that. That is what the pharisees believe in regards to the Law of Moses and Jesus. They thought that salvation came from "obedience" to the Law. The problem is NOBODY can keep the law perfectly and all the law does is point your sin and the fact that you can't keep it. "For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." Eccl 7:20 "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Psa 14:2-3 "Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts." Isa 6:5 "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.1 John 1:8-10 "Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities. I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me. And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted." 2 Ne 4:17-19 (One of my very favorite scriptures) "O Lord, thou hast said that we must be encompassed about by the floods. Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires." Ether 3:2 So, believe what you may, but it is evidently clear from scripture that every blessing we receive comes by the grace of God. Without a broken heart and contrite spirit that manifest itself in quiet, faithful, humble obedience, we are nothing and are nothing before Him that is EVERYTHING. You see, your pride leads you to believe that you have any kind of righteousness that deserves anything. It all makes evident that you do not know the scriptures. But, alas, I leave you with my favorite scripture from the Book of Mormon: "And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be meek, and lowly of heart. If so, his faith and hope is vain, for none is acceptable before God, save the meek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and confesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have [love]; for if he have not [love] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have [love]." Mor 7:43-44 The pure love of Christ in our hearts and radiating out to to touc everything and everyone is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. That is how and (the ONLY) way we become righteous. Good luck with the rest. Before answering, I went through alot of your post from this thread and others. And we see the gospel of christ totally different, and that's ok. You can interpret scripture how ever you want. But for me, I choose to concentrate on scripture that strengthens and uplifts, not that constantly reminds us that we're unworthy, meek and lowly, become evil, wretched and so on. Personally, I think Joseph Smith grew tired of ministers and preachers telling him he was unworthy, it didnt sit right with him. So he prayed and the lord showed him a better way, through positivity, that's what our religion is to me, positivity. There's a balance islander. Here's a screenshot that can help you see how I view the gospel. It's a talk called, On Being Worthy, by Marvin J Ashton. Edited January 4, 2021 by AtlanticMike 1
Islander Posted January 4, 2021 Posted January 4, 2021 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: I still find your approach doctrinally opposed to the restored gospel (no matter how much you claim your interpretation of scripture is what the writer meant). This kind of "we can do nothing worth mentioning, Christ is everything, all you need is love" approach is not Mormonism. Straight out of evangelical or even non-denominational Christianity. You are welcome to that belief of course, but don't pass it off as the gospel restored in this dispensation. The Prophet Joseph restored a much further reaching body of eternal truths. Who told you that that I am advocating for a "all you need is love" doctrine?. You keep missing the point. The love of Christ in our hearts is the driving force behind EVERYTHING we do. Blind "obedience" to ordinance, liturgy, ritual, etc is empty, worthless and rejected by God. I pointed to the scriptures but you are married to your own man-made religion and refuse to see it. It is our love for God, the things of the God and people of God that prompts us to obedience. It is the faith and hope in Christ and our salvation thru HIM that drives our desire and willingness to sacrifice everything for the kingdom of God, even to surrender our very lives if necessary. If you can't understand that I can't help you. Whatever truths were restored in this dispensation open our eyes to the work of God, the reach of His love for those fallen without a full knowledge of the Gospel and our role in their salvation, as well as further blessings and strength (thru later day ordinances) to endure the challenges of mortality in our struggle against the enemy of our souls. Absolutely nothing revealed in this dispensation negates what I presented to you from the canon of scripture.
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