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3 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As I've repeatedly pointed out, Joseph didn't know the actual nature of the Godhead until it was specifically revealed to him, which was years after both the First Vision and his edits to the Book of Mormon.

Would you please post a link to one of those explanations?   I was unaware of that

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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think you, as others have done, are trying to superimpose sectarian dogma on Latter-day Saint theology. It won’t work. 
 

The only way to coherently grasp the Book of Mormon teachings on this topic is to understand, as Latter-day Saints do, that the Father and Son are so perfectly united in purpose and divinity that they share the title Father and that they are truly “one God” in every meaningful sense EXCEPT in the sense of being one in person. 
 

Think of the Latin slogan on our coins: “E pluribus unum.” It means “out of many, one.”  If you can conceive of that imagery, perhaps you can begin to grasp the doctrinal concept. 

:clapping:

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Where have all the podcasts gone.....

To the tune of "Where Have all the Flowers Gone".....

I went to FM's website and don't see them. I have a beef with the This Is The Show's podcast where Kwaku mouths the f-word while yelling, "No, Joseph didn't use a (bleeping) Ouija Board!". Well, FM, that is a lie. Runnells never said that, put in context, he said it was "like" using a Ouija Board, when using the seerstones. 

So it's like the LDS memes we'd see in the 70's or 80's or ? and there was a cockroach in some ice-cream. Kind of ruins the whole thing. I know there's another video they mention how if Runnells gets some things wrong, then why even trust any of the CES letter. 

Well, now my question is, if the show outright lies like that, how should we trust all of FairMormon. With that in the back of our minds, it's like the cockroach in the ice-cream. 

Is it okay to lie about things in church history, to protect the faithful? I don't think it will be in the long run, members will or already feel betrayed. 

Have they therefore taken down the videos, off the board, or is it my inability to find them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0umGReiTRU

Watch at the 1:45 mark. 

Edited by Tacenda
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15 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I have a beef with the This Is The Show's podcast where Kwaku mouths the f-word while yelling, "No, Joseph didn't use a (bleeping) Ouija Board!". Well, FM, that is a lie. Runnells never said that, put in context, he said it was "like" using a Ouija Board, when using the seerstones. 

Watch at the 1:45 mark. 

Yeah.  This is pretty problematic.  Time to boycott FAIR.  I wonder why the Brethren support FAIR with their presence and appearance at seminars.  Deeply troubling.

Edited by Bob Crockett
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33 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Yeah.  This is pretty problematic.  Time to boycott FAIR.  I wonder why the Brethren support FAIR with their presence and appearance at seminars.  Deeply troubling.

I too have a problem with the way FAIR tries to come up with explanations for some things. It almost makes it worse than the issue itself. But I guess we have to weigh all the good they do with the few things that are not so good. It has been helpful for me at times when I need some quotes from church leaders on certain subjects. 

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well, now my question is, if the show outright lies like that, how should we trust all of FairMormon. With that in the back of our minds, it's like the cockroach in the ice-cream. 

Will you promise to use the same standard for the CES Letter?  Or will you make excuses to continue to use it even if he is shown to lie once?  
 

Did you pick up that observation off a critical site or assumed it was wrong on your own without checking?

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Have they therefore taken down the videos, off the board, or is it my inability to find them?

You just linked to one. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, JAHS said:

too have a problem with the way FAIR tries to come up with explanations for some things.

Please provide details rather than a vague complaint. 

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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Will you promise to use the same standard for the CES Letter?  Or will you make excuses to continue to use it even if he is shown to lie once?  
 

Did you pick up that observation off a critical site or assumed it was wrong on your own without checking?

You just linked to one. 

They use to be on FM's website, with the other podcasts, unless I'm remembering wrong. I finally found it when I clicked on the explanation of the videos in the blue at the very beginning. 

This morning I listened to RFM and Bill Reel's new live or it was live, show when they discuss the This Is The Show's videos and mentioned this one. They are right IMO, if the CES letter by Runnells, is thrown out for one mistake or misquote, or lie? Should FM be criticized as well for lies coming out of Kwaku's mouth? Did they not read the page of the CES letter fully? Or are people feeding this information to them? I'm all for FM if they are being totally transparent, I thought they've been pretty transparent. But if the cockroach is in the ice-cream, I can't un-see it.  Which they did in the video. That discredits what they say. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Should FM be criticized as well for lies coming out of Kwaku's mouth?

Why am I not surprised you are listening to that instead of checking for accuracy yourself. 
 

If it is not a lie, do you promise not to continue to post claims from the CES Letter as you won’t be able to unsee that?
 

All the podcasts are still available through the FM page:

https://www.fairmormon.org/media/fairmormon-podcasts
 

If you mean This is the Show videos, I believe they have always been on YouTube. It is the only place I have accessed them myself. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Where have all the podcasts gone.....

To the tune of "Where Have all the Flowers Gone".....

I went to FM's website and don't see them. I have a beef with the This Is The Show's podcast where Kwaku mouths the f-word while yelling, "No, Joseph didn't use a (bleeping) Ouija Board!". Well, FM, that is a lie. Runnells never said that, put in context, he said it was "like" using a Ouija Board, when using the seerstones. 

So it's like the LDS memes we'd see in the 70's or 80's or ? and there was a cockroach in some ice-cream. Kind of ruins the whole thing. I know there's another video they mention how if Runnells gets some things wrong, then why even trust any of the CES letter. 

Well, now my question is, if the show outright lies like that, how should we trust all of FairMormon. With that in the back of our minds, it's like the cockroach in the ice-cream. 

Is it okay to lie about things in church history, to protect the faithful? I don't think it will be in the long run, members will or already feel betrayed. 

Have they therefore taken down the videos, off the board, or is it my inability to find them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0umGReiTRU

Watch at the 1:45 mark. 

Do you think that Kwaku is being sincere in his exclamation that JS didn't use a ouija board, or is it possible that he's being hyperbolical to make a point and using the same term that Runnells used to do it?   

I agree that if FM is going to attempt to rebut something that the rebuttal needs to be above reproach as much as possible.  The videos are largely satirical in nature though, and are meant to be received as such (something I'm assuming Dehlin and those critiquing are well aware of).  From my perspective, taking something that is meant to be satirical or exaggerated for effect or amusement value, and pretending like it's not so that it's easier to debate, is not really an honest or good faith effort to deal with the content.

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42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

They use to be on FM's website, with the other podcasts, unless I'm remembering wrong. I finally found it when I clicked on the explanation of the videos in the blue at the very beginning. 

This morning I listened to RFM and Bill Reel's new live or it was live, show when they discuss the This Is The Show's videos and mentioned this one. They are right IMO, if the CES letter by Runnells, is thrown out for one mistake or misquote, or lie? Should FM be criticized as well for lies coming out of Kwaku's mouth? Did they not read the page of the CES letter fully? Or are people feeding this information to them? I'm all for FM if they are being totally transparent, I thought they've been pretty transparent. But if the cockroach is in the ice-cream, I can't un-see it.  Which they did in the video. That discredits what they say. 

 

Good grief, go read even one of the multitude of CES Letter’s rebuttals. ONE mistake/lie? Seriously? How many academic treatments of the letter going through the many lies one by one does FM post or link to?  

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15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Do you think that Kwaku is being sincere in his exclamation that JS didn't use a ouija board, or is it possible that he's being hyperbolical to make a point and using the same term that Runnells used to do it?   

I agree that if FM is going to attempt to rebut something that the rebuttal needs to be above reproach as much as possible.  The videos are largely satirical in nature though, and are meant to be received as such (something I'm assuming Dehlin and those critiquing are well aware of).  From my perspective, taking something that is meant to be satirical or exaggerated for effect or amusement value, and pretending like it's not so that it's easier to debate, is not really an honest or good faith effort to deal with the content.

Absolutely to the bold and no they aren't being hyperbolic when they are portraying that Runnells said JS used the Ouija Board. Proof is them showing that the Ouija Board wasn't invented until much later, with dates splashed before our eyes.

No real biggie to me, except if we are to take the videos seriously and believe what they say, then as you mentioned it needs to be above reproach. I think it's great to have fun as long as it's not at someone's expense, then we're lowering our standards to be just like the bullies that are doing it, and worse when we lie about it. Couldn't they make it fun without that, I have a feeling it's more Cardon's doing in all honesty. He likes the drama, IMO. Maybe Kwaku does too, but at least it needs to be believable. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Absolutely to the bold and no they aren't being hyperbolic when they are portraying that Runnells said JS used the Ouija Board. Proof is them showing that the Ouija Board wasn't invented until much later, with dates splashed before our eyes.

No real biggie to me, except if we are to take the videos seriously and believe what they say, then as you mentioned it needs to be above reproach. I think it's great to have fun as long as it's not at someone's expense, then we're lowering our standards to be just like the bullies that are doing it, and worse when we lie about it. Couldn't they make it fun without that, I have a feeling it's more Cardon's doing in all honesty. He likes the drama, IMO. Maybe Kwaku does too, but at least it needs to be believable. 

 

And you think Kwaku believes that Runnells didn't know the ouija board wasn't invented in the 1800s?

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39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

 

No real biggie to me, except if we are to take the videos seriously and believe what they say, then as you mentioned it needs to be above reproach. 

 

It obviously is a real biggie to you. Being "above reproach" has nothing to do with whether information is factual. It is an effective ad hominem diversion, though. Have you looked at even one of the CES Letter line by line rebuttals yet? 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

If it is not a lie, do you promise not to continue to post claims from the CES Letter as you won’t be able to unsee that?

Yes or no, Tacenda?

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16 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I know! Church leaders sometimes make this mistake too. :( I sincerely hope that increased awareness of the documentary record (and better understanding by the Saints of traditional Christian concepts*) will over time weed this falsehood out of the Church body and its literature.

But what should it tell us that this very point is showing up in a video series that people are labelling as superficial and ill-informed?

_____

* As noted above, I have written on this misunderstanding multiple times in this forum, including on a common Latter-day Saint misreading of 'one substance' in the Nicene Creed. Our 'heresy' is not that we reject the concept that the Father and the Son are separate persons made of the same substance; rather, it is that we insist that a) we are also made of the same substance and b) this divine substance can be -- and in fact ideally should be -- embodied. 

I think most members of the church would be shocked to learn that Joseph Smith walked away from the grove still thinking that God and Christ are the same being.  That video is IMO teaching something the Church doesn't or has ever taught. Honestly I find it dismissive just by the fact that they try and make the minister look like a stupid idiot dressed up like a Halloween hillbilly costume, while they are all dressed up in dress shirts and ties.  How could someone from another religion not be offended at how their ministers are being portrayed.  If that is their audience, it totally misses the mark.  But mostly, it makes Mormon arguments look stupid and twisted like a pretzel in its logic.

This does nothing to support beliefs of the Church.  Honestly it looks more like an anti-Mormon video showing the arrogance of Mormon Missionaries teaching the ignorant misguided Christians that uses trickery to convince people of their beliefs.

Edited by california boy
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More from the racist lady Dehlin podcast. Dehlin is saying it's super weird that an educated young Black person would join the church. As opposed to all of the super uneducated ones who have, I suppose. But he clarified he doesn't want to be insulting by assigning intelligence to skin color, so all is good.  It is hard to believe that someone in his position can be this clueless. 

 

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23 minutes ago, california boy said:

...Honestly I find it dismissive just by the fact that they try and make the minister look like a stupid idiot dressed up like a Halloween hillbilly costume, while they are all dressed up in dress shirts and ties.  How could someone from another religion not be offended at how their ministers are being portrayed.  If that is their audience, it totally misses the mark.  But mostly, it makes Mormon arguments look stupid and twisted like a pretzel in its logic.

This does nothing to support beliefs of the Church.  Honestly it looks more like an anti-Mormon video showing the arrogance of Mormon Missionaries teaching the ignorant misguided Christians that uses trickery to convince people of their beliefs....

Exactly!

M.

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26 minutes ago, california boy said:

I think most members of the church would be shocked to learn that Joseph Smith walked away from the grove still thinking that God and Christ are the same being.  That video is IMO teaching something the Church doesn't or has ever taught. Honestly I find it dismissive just by the fact that they try and make the minister look like a stupid idiot dressed up like a Halloween hillbilly costume, while they are all dressed up in dress shirts and ties.  How could someone from another religion not be offended at how their ministers are being portrayed.  If that is their audience, it totally misses the mark.  But mostly, it makes Mormon arguments look stupid and twisted like a pretzel in its logic.

This does nothing to support beliefs of the Church.  Honestly it looks more like an anti-Mormon video showing the arrogance of Mormon Missionaries teaching the ignorant misguided Christians that uses trickery to convince people of their beliefs.

I have a very low tolerance for mocking other churches/religions. No matter who is doing it. 

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On 12/11/2020 at 11:11 AM, Maureen said:

This video of the Trinity is awful. The hillbilly pastor is made to look ridiculous and he is. Kwaku and Brad have no cool how to explain the trinity and honestly they could care less. The Book of Mormon has hints of trinity mixed with modalism in it. I'm sure even Joseph Smith was trying to figure out the trinity but couldn't help but confuse it with modalism and it shows in the Book if Mormon.

M.

No one beyond theologians know how to understandably explain the Trinity, to be honest. That is why the analogies like the ice/water are so prevalent.  In the video interview above somewhere, Kwaku described how many ways it was explained to him before he converted to Mormonism and that included modalism which he is very aware of being inaccurate. It sounded like the Mormon version of the Godhead was key in his conversion after his struggles with a trinitarian concept.  

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think most members of the church would be shocked to learn that Joseph Smith walked away from the grove still thinking that God and Christ are the same being.

Same being? Trinitarianism teaches 'that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another' ('The Blessed Trinity', Catholic Encyclopedia). Your understanding of the Trinity 'totally misses the mark'.

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Honestly it looks more like an anti-Mormon video showing the arrogance of Mormon Missionaries teaching the ignorant misguided Christians that uses trickery to convince people of their beliefs.

You and I clearly watched two very different videos. The one I linked to includes none of the above.

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53 minutes ago, juliann said:

I have a very low tolerance for mocking other churches/religions. No matter who is doing it. 

As do I!

44 minutes ago, juliann said:

No one beyond theologians know how to understandably explain the Trinity, to be honest.

Which makes it even more refreshing to see an accurate, respectful discussion of the topic in this video.

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10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Same being? Trinitarianism teaches 'that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another' ('The Blessed Trinity', Catholic Encyclopedia). Your understanding of the Trinity 'totally misses the mark'....

I'm going to have to say, based on your statement above, that your understanding has missed the mark.

In understanding the Trinity, the words "being" and "person" are not synonyms. In the Trinity, all "persons" of the Trinity are indeed distinct from each other, but they are one "being", because there is only one God. That is where the term "3 in 1" comes from. Three "persons" in one "being".

M.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

I think most members of the church would be shocked to learn that Joseph Smith walked away from the grove still thinking that God and Christ are the same being.  That video is IMO teaching something the Church doesn't or has ever taught. Honestly I find it dismissive just by the fact that they try and make the minister look like a stupid idiot dressed up like a Halloween hillbilly costume, while they are all dressed up in dress shirts and ties.  How could someone from another religion not be offended at how their ministers are being portrayed.  If that is their audience, it totally misses the mark.  But mostly, it makes Mormon arguments look stupid and twisted like a pretzel in its logic.

 

The Trinity is the pretzel. It solved the problem of a polytheistic religion needing to be monotheistic. But it has never been successfully explained, it can only be respected. The LDS Godhead is a very foundational strong point for Mormonism.

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