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2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

My therapist was speaking of church teachings and culture, as she had a lot of experience with people and couples on both sides of the leaving. But as I said, I'd imagine leaving any faith community, especially one in which you've been heavily invested, is going to be "not easy."

Was her question to get you to elaborate or talk more, or was she sharing your assessment?

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8 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Was her question to get you to elaborate or talk more, or was she sharing your assessment?

Never mind. Best to stay away from the personal. Sorry about that. 

Edited by jkwilliams
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12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not trying to say the bold.  I have no doubt that leaving would be difficult and painful for some (and for their families).  And surely not something done lightly.  I'm speaking to those who claim that it is difficult because the church causes the families of those who leave to treat them badly.  There's a difference between being treated badly for a decision, and conflict or heartache that comes naturally from a decision.  I'm speaking to the first and not the second. 

If you're family treats you badly after you leave, it's not because the church caused them to do that.  It's because of their own weaknesses and issues. 

Of course a wife would be devastated if her husband announced he was leaving.  And that devastation would be completely rational and reasonable given what the marriage had been built from (namely religious beliefs and covenants).  Anytime a relationship has to be reworked down to the studs (so to speak), that's going to be difficult, for everyone but especially for the person that did not cause the change but must deal with the consequences.   

But that difficulty is not because the church is a cult that makes it hard to leave.  It's because when you change the building bricks that a marriage was created on (regardless of what those building bricks were) and when you change the way that a husband and wife are yoked together, it's going to be hard for a while as adjustments are learned.

I've always been puzzled by the demand that it should be "easy" to leave something that has shaped your life, your family supports, etc. There are certainly going to be difficult circumstances, unreasonable people, hurt and so on. Why wouldn't there be? There is a reason people don't park on the internet and make a profession out of complaining and attacking after similar circumstances in other areas of life where the church isn't involved. It would be weird and worrisome.

That is not to say leavetakers haven't been treated badly. Of course they have. But most just go on to quietly and successfully enjoy their new life choices like most people do. I think the church has taken noticeable steps to put a stop to using exiting as an excuse to abuse neighbors and family members. If only the angry exmo community had a leader who would do the same.

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2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It was my first visit, and toward the end of session, I mentioned I was struggling with the repercussions of leaving the church. She said, "They don't make it easy to leave, do they?" and then mentioned we could explore that later, as she had counseled a lot of individuals and couples who were facing the same struggles. 

How about making a new thread for this stuff? 

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1 minute ago, juliann said:

I've always been puzzled by the demand that it should be "easy" to leave something that has shaped your life, your family supports, etc. There are certainly going to be difficult circumstances, unreasonable people, hurt and so on. Why wouldn't there be? There is a reason people don't park on the internet and make a profession out of complaining and attacking after similar circumstances in other areas of life where the church isn't involved. It would be weird and worrisome.

That is not to say leavetakers haven't been treated badly. Of course they have. But most just go on to quietly and successfully enjoy their new life choices like most people do. I think the church has taken noticeable steps to put a stop to using exiting as an excuse to abuse neighbors and family members. If only the angry exmo community had a leader who would do the same.

You probably won't see this, but I agree with you. No one should expect leaving their worldview behind to be easy. But palming it off on "your family sucks" is equally puzzling to me. 

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Just now, bluebell said:

From my perspective, making an exist difficult and treating a loved one badly are the same thing.  This is because I see making an exit difficult and an exit being difficult as two different things.  

Gravity makes falling painful, but that doesn't mean the person who jumps off the cliff should be angry at gravity for the painful landing.  

I agree that the teachings of the church, the covenants made and it's truth claims, make leaving difficult.  I don't see that as the fault of the church but rather the natural consequence of making the choice to severe oneself from them.  The teachings are meant to speak to very weighty things.  The covenants were meant to be a binding promise between a person and the God of the universe.  If those promises meant anything to the person who made them--if they had any kind of an impact on that person's life while they were in force--then undoing them, even if they were based on a lie or mistake, will naturally be a painful and difficult. 

And to be clear I'm not arguing that the pain is a sign that the choice was wrong or bad (just like jumping off of a cliff might not be wrong or bad, depending on the reason).  

Some family members made it very difficult for me, but I do not think they treated me badly, so I would not equate the two. They were doing everything they could to help me, as they saw it, not trying to punish me. A lot of people I know have had the same experience. It doesn't mean our families suck or that the church is a cult. It just means it's painful and difficult for everyone involved to upend your life like that. 

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3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Nah, she made a general statement:

If she is only talking about some exmos then she could be more careful in her wording. 

It's circular rhetoric and at the heart of whataboutisms.  On the other hand, what can any of us do about harmful rhetoric of our associates? What can one do personally? What can one do as a prominent influencer? What can one do as a member of FAIR? What can church leaders do? In every one of these situations, there is more or less a person can do about it. 

 

How about YOU be more careful with your reading. 

This is why I'm done talking to you. Here is the exchange, I see no good faith in what you are doing. I bolded it for you to make it easier. See the referent?* Hm? It's the form of "crap-slinging" not all exmos. It is those yelling at Mormons. Not all exmos.  Slinging crap. Those exmos. . So unless you are now going to deny they exist take your nitpicking pot stirring back to your crap slinging exmo board.  

*In English grammar, a referent (REF-er-unt) is the person, thing, or idea that a word or expression denotes, stands for, or refers to. For example, the referent of the word door in the sentence "The black door is open" is a concrete object, a door—in this case, a specific black door.

 

 

 

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How does this image contribute to make "the environment we share [better] for the believers and nonbelivers alike?

You cannot claim that the exmo/progmo form of crap-slinging at Church members is justifed while complaining that some of those members eventually get tired of being told how stupid they are and start fighting back.

Well, yes they can and boy do they. Which brings us back to what I think this is really about.....hypocrisy and double standards. Merely yelling at Mormons to stop when all we see is a steady stream of it from them isn't compelling.

 

 

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

but it's clearly not designed to be

I think it is here where we disagree.  I don't think there is anything *uniquely* difficult about leaving Mormonism.  Changing beliefs is always a challenge.  But this phenomenon is common to religious affiliation, political party, etc.  And so if a person feels mistreated when making a transition, the problem is the people doing the mistreatment. 

And the fact, for example, that you and I have had very different experiences is further evidence that challenge of leaving is NOT with the Church.  Otherwise, the experience would be common between us.  We both left the same Church.  You had a challenging experience, I did not. 

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1 minute ago, Ipod Touch said:

I think it is here where we disagree.  I don't think there is anything *uniquely* difficult about leaving Mormonism.  Changing beliefs is always a challenge.  But this phenomenon is common to religious affiliation, political party, etc.  And so if a person feels mistreated when making a transition, the problem is the people doing the mistreatment. 

And the fact, for example, that you and I have had very different experiences is further evidence that challenge of leaving is NOT with the Church.  Otherwise, the experience would be common between us.  We both left the same Church.  You had a challenging experience, I did not. 

I'm not talking about "mistreatment." And I agree that there's nothing uniquely difficult about leaving Mormonism. What I objected to was the notion that, if it is difficult to leave, it's because your family sucks, etc. One can have a perfectly lovely family, as I do, and still find it extremely difficult to leave. 

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1 hour ago, jkwilliams said:

People blame the Church when, in fact, they simply have dysfunctional families/relationships. If a person's family chooses to make their exit from the Church difficult, that's not a Church problem, your family sucks.

There's nothing passive-aggressive or pot-stirring in responding to this blanket statement. 

I will admit that my statement is overly-simplistic and hyperbolic.

But I strongly believe that if family members mistreat you as you leave the Church, the problem is the family and not the Church.  If this were NOT the case, then *everyone* who leaves Mormonism would be mistreated by their family.

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1 minute ago, Ipod Touch said:

I will admit that my statement is overly-simplistic and hyperbolic.

But I strongly believe that if family members mistreat you as you leave the Church, the problem is the family and not the Church.  If this were NOT the case, then *everyone* who leaves Mormonism would be mistreated by their family.

That is an entirely different statement. Thank you for clarifying. 

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1 minute ago, jkwilliams said:

I'm not talking about "mistreatment." And I agree that there's nothing uniquely difficult about leaving Mormonism. What I objected to was the notion that, if it is difficult to leave, it's because your family sucks, etc. One can have a perfectly lovely family, as I do, and still find it extremely difficult to leave. 

I should clarify:  If your family makes it difficult for you to leave Mormonism, your family sucks at being a family.

But I agree that leaving Mormonism does present some personal and individual challenges, as any major life transformation usually does.

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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Some family members made it very difficult for me, but I do not think they treated me badly, so I would not equate the two. They were doing everything they could to help me, as they saw it, not trying to punish me. A lot of people I know have had the same experience. It doesn't mean our families suck or that the church is a cult. It just means it's painful and difficult for everyone involved to upend your life like that. 

Especially if it is your spouse that you planned to share an eternity with. 

Edited by JAHS
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2 hours ago, jkwilliams said:

Never mind. Best to stay away from the personal. Sorry about that. 

No problem. I find when people say, "My therapist said," it means it is what they, themselves, want to say or assert. If you believe church teachings and culture make it difficult for members to leave or resign, what do you mean? If that's not what you meant to say, that's OK too.

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This post is bringing up the 9-1-1 subject from 3 to 4 pages ago, but what the heck.

In this link it says:

"If you are ever in doubt of whether a situation is an emergency you should call 9-1-1. It's better to be safe and let the 9-1-1 call taker determine if you need emergency assistance."

https://www.uca911.org/When-to-Call-911

M.

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You get to have some insight into Kwaku's personal story, through this interview with Shawn McCraney of the HOTM show. I think you'll like this. It was filmed last year, stumbled across it just now. Shawn sure has changed throughout the years, looks and belief wise. Maybe he'll wind back up in the church one day. ;) ETA: As I'm watching I sure like this side of Kwaku, great guy!

If you want you can skip to around 13:00 minutes in when he introduces Kwaku. 

 

Edited by Tacenda
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22 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

I think it is great too.

I also think that believing Church members should also have a place and means to "blow off steam" as well.  When you "blow off steam" by dumping on someone's deeply held religious convictions, then it should come as no when steam is blown back in your direction from time to time.

I'm just really tired of this big-bad-Church narrative.  People blame the Church when, in fact, they simply have dysfunctional families/relationships. If a person's family chooses to make their exit from the Church difficult, that's not a Church problem, your family sucks.

If your Mormon friends abandon you when you leave, they are crappy people and bad friends.  Mormonism has nothing to do with it.

Exmos need to take responsibility for their own lives and happiness and stop blaming the Church for all their problems.

Well, of course we all have personal responsibility, but it is naive to conclude that the church has no impact on personal relationships when it explicitly aims to impact all human relationships. It is realistic to acknowledge that sometimes the impact can be harmful. And it's not wrong to point out harm and try to lessen it.

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20 hours ago, juliann said:

How about YOU be more careful with your reading. 

This is why I'm done talking to you. Here is the exchange, I see no good faith in what you are doing. I bolded it for you to make it easier. See the referent?* Hm? It's the form of "crap-slinging" not all exmos. It is those yelling at Mormons. Not all exmos.  Slinging crap. Those exmos. . So unless you are now going to deny they exist take your nitpicking pot stirring back to your crap slinging exmo board.  

*In English grammar, a referent (REF-er-unt) is the person, thing, or idea that a word or expression denotes, stands for, or refers to. For example, the referent of the word door in the sentence "The black door is open" is a concrete object, a door—in this case, a specific black door.

 

 

 

 

How is what you said in good faith?

 
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  On 12/8/2020 at 8:55 PM, Ipod Touch said:

How does this image contribute to make "the environment we share [better] for the believers and nonbelivers alike?

You cannot claim that the exmo/progmo form of crap-slinging at Church members is justifed while complaining that some of those members eventually get tired of being told how stupid they are and start fighting back.

Well, yes they can and boy do they. Which brings us back to what I think this is really about.....hypocrisy and double standards. Merely yelling at Mormons to stop when all we see is a steady stream of it from them isn't compelling.

 

 

Who is being hypocritical here? Who are you referring to in the green? When did I say that crap-slinging is justified? Why are you and Ipod Touch engaging in this kind of argument with me when I entered with this?

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There is a fundamental difference between what flows from a center of religious-social-political power and what flows from those who resist it. 

Any church-supported influencer merits more scrutiny because of that, simply because of the innate power of the church.

Please don't forget that church versus exmos are not equivalent opposing forces.

 

As far as I see, neither you or Ipod Touch have actually engaged with this but only bickered about points after people have asked somewhat-relevant questions. I did not enter this thread "merely yelling at Mormons to stop." I came in with a point of view about power dynamics. You did not engage me there, but chose to engage somewhere after I answered questions about support from the church. 

It's fine to jump in a thread and make one-off replies. I have no problem with that. Yet you are doing that AND mischaracterizing me based on your own failure to recognize what I have actually contributed to the discussion. I am totally fine with you not talking to me. This is a pretty consistent pattern with you and it's quite unproductive.

I have tried several times on this thread to contribute to a better tone specifically with you and to focus more productively. Here's more that we could contemplate:

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...what can any of us do about harmful rhetoric of our associates? What can one do personally? What can one do as a prominent influencer? What can one do as a member of FAIR? What can church leaders do? In every one of these situations, there is more or less a person can do about it. 

The power dynamic is not an equal one. But everyone of us can try to make the interactions better.

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

How is what you said in good faith?

 

 

Who is being hypocritical here? Who are you referring to in the green? When did I say that crap-slinging is justified? Why are you and Ipod Touch engaging in this kind of argument with me when I entered with this?

As far as I see, neither you or Ipod Touch have actually engaged with this but only bickered about points after people have asked somewhat-relevant questions. I did not enter this thread "merely yelling at Mormons to stop." I came in with a point of view about power dynamics. You did not engage me there, but chose to engage somewhere after I answered questions about support from the church. 

It's fine to jump in a thread and make one-off replies. I have no problem with that. Yet you are doing that AND mischaracterizing me based on your own failure to recognize what I have actually contributed to the discussion. I am totally fine with you not talking to me. This is a pretty consistent pattern with you and it's quite unproductive.

I have tried several times on this thread to contribute to a better tone specifically with you and to focus more productively. Here's more that we could contemplate:

The power dynamic is not an equal one. But everyone of us can try to make the interactions better.

Because they are nannying, but are blind to it. Which is ironic because Juliann started the pinned nannying thread. Because apparently people on this thread were nannying, I'd say it's calling the kettle black. Unless I don't know exactly what nannying is meant on this board.

Edited by Tacenda
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14 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if we're going to get more of these rebuttals to This Is The Show videos.

 

 

I'm sure we will.  After all, This is the Show is just a rebuttal of something else.  Rebuttals are the norm and video rebuttals of everything from religious claims to the best menu item at McDonalds are all the rage right now. 

There will be more rebuttals and there will be rebuttals of those rebuttals.  

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