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2 hours ago, Ian Law said:

I think one of the big problems here is that apologists seem to operate independently of the church. I could not imagine the church allowing or dismissing as "no big deal" with the acronym "TITS" if the videos were produced by CES insted of FM. And certainly I could not imagine apologists reposting and doubling down on violent and graphic videos against its critics if apologists were directly accountable to CES, the bishop, or the stake president for their calling. 

The big takeaway from these incidents is that the time has come for the church to exercise direct oversight over apologetics and apologists. 

How would apologetics come out of a council process like (for example) correlation does? Correlation distills revelation and scholarship to the essentials and presents this light to all the world and appeals to hearers' faith and goodwill. Apologetics seeks to neutralize, with rationale, the rational arguments that challenge all that. Few and simple are the positive truths and messages that come out of correlation, but many are the arguments whereby these may be countered when faith is not used as a key.

Apologetics is also a fairly narrow approach, with a particular set of tools, in comparison to ministering.

Edited by CV75
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3 hours ago, Ian Law said:

I am not stating every apologist should report directly to the First Presidency or even to the CES office. 

But certainly a structure for apologists can be put in place at the ward/branch or stake level. And CES could be put in charge of coordinating and publishing apologetics materials. This way the church could exercise much greater accountability from apologists and apologetics. 

This sounds awful - and I have mixed feelings about apologetics.

I think the church prefers to do it the way they do with charities. The church has found it is much more effective to support charities that are already out there.  That's one reason they created JustServe.  There are a few rules like no fundraising or political projects and rules about tax status, but otherwise the church is hands off even if the charity doesn't completely align with the church.  

We are told we should be anxiously engaged.  That we shouldn't need to wait for God to tell us what to do.  

It's like that with apologetics.  There are reasons the church allows us to have agency in this matter.  Mistakes will be made, but mistakes are also made on ward and stake levels and even even general church levels. So you learn from them. That's part of having agency and learning to become like God.

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I saw a lot of talk about my Twitter activity, so thought I would respond. Threads of mine have already been shared here and I still agree with them. I did an all my views post a while ago, where I condemned white supremacy and white nationalism entirely (I have never thought racism was acceptable, please feel free to comb through my very public presence on Twitter, Medium, and Facebook and read my material; the vast majority of my content is well within the boundaries that the Church has set. My minimal political posting has been critical of progressives and of the alt-right. 

Here's an example of my typical content: https://hseariac.medium.com/social-justice-in-zion-f3969e54d55a 

My rule of thumb with tweeting is this: if a tweet is a good tweet, I will retweet it, but I am not responsible for all that person's views. I'm friendly with a lot of people on Twitter and elsewhere. Even if you *really* disagree with me, I am friendly with you. My only exceptions here are if you've tried to commit a crime against me or my friends or you false accuse me and my friends of crimes or you exclusively try to tear down the Church. Even then I am direct, but certainly quite polite still. I see no reason not to be friendly with as many people as possible and be kind. I have cultivated many relationships this way with people from progressive to fundamentalist religiously and of many political persuasions. I'm really influenced by Daryl Davis' approach to getting to know people. 

If you're really invested in seeing my Twitter, look at it for yourself and judge the tweets if you feel so inclined to do that: https://twitter.com/HannaSeariac If you even want to ask me about any of my views, feel free to DM me there. I'm a pretty open person. Personally, I think we need more kindness and communication, not less. That's what I'm committed to doing while still putting God first. 

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17 minutes ago, Hanna Seariac said:

I saw a lot of talk about my Twitter activity, so thought I would respond. Threads of mine have already been shared here and I still agree with them. I did an all my views post a while ago, where I condemned white supremacy and white nationalism entirely (I have never thought racism was acceptable, please feel free to comb through my very public presence on Twitter, Medium, and Facebook and read my material; the vast majority of my content is well within the boundaries that the Church has set. My minimal political posting has been critical of progressives and of the alt-right. 

Here's an example of my typical content: https://hseariac.medium.com/social-justice-in-zion-f3969e54d55a 

My rule of thumb with tweeting is this: if a tweet is a good tweet, I will retweet it, but I am not responsible for all that person's views. I'm friendly with a lot of people on Twitter and elsewhere. Even if you *really* disagree with me, I am friendly with you. My only exceptions here are if you've tried to commit a crime against me or my friends or you false accuse me and my friends of crimes or you exclusively try to tear down the Church. Even then I am direct, but certainly quite polite still. I see no reason not to be friendly with as many people as possible and be kind. I have cultivated many relationships this way with people from progressive to fundamentalist religiously and of many political persuasions. I'm really influenced by Daryl Davis' approach to getting to know people. 

If you're really invested in seeing my Twitter, look at it for yourself and judge the tweets if you feel so inclined to do that: https://twitter.com/HannaSeariac If you even want to ask me about any of my views, feel free to DM me there. I'm a pretty open person. Personally, I think we need more kindness and communication, not less. That's what I'm committed to doing while still putting God first. 

Good deal and thanks for showing up.  As you can see you have had some supporters here that understood your position.  People tend to guilt members here by association all the time.  It’s a common tactic.  Shout louder and don’t let them shout you down.  
 

Nemesis

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I thought Calm said that Kwaku approached FAIR, not the other way around?

No, Cardon Ellis did. It was his idea to invite Kwaku to join the project, but there was no reluctance that I am aware of, so please don’t take me posting that fact as trying to shift blame anyone. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Hanna Seariac said:

I saw a lot of talk about my Twitter activity, so thought I would respond. Threads of mine have already been shared here and I still agree with them.... 

So much better than me posting something secondhand or thirdhand. Yes! 

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11 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

How does this image contribute to make "the environment we share [better] for the believers and nonbelivers alike"?

What image are you talking about?

11 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

You cannot claim that the exmo/progmo form of crap-slinging at Church members is justifed while complaining that some of those members eventually get tired of being told how stupid they are and start fighting back.

When did I do that, exactly? Maybe you misunderstood.

11 hours ago, juliann said:

Well, yes they can and boy do they. Which brings us back to what I think this is really about.....hypocrisy and double standards. Merely yelling at Mormons to stop when all we see is a steady stream of it from them isn't compelling.

Is that really all you see from exmormons? A steady stream of crap-slinging? 

I entered this thread saying this:

Quote

 

There is a fundamental difference between what flows from a center of religious-social-political power and what flows from those who resist it. 

Any church-supported influencer merits more scrutiny because of that, simply because of the innate power of the church.

Please don't forget that church versus exmos are not equivalent opposing forces.

 

This statement does not excuse abuse from anybody. But if you, Juliann, want to really talk about the general causes at issue and more than about whataboutisms, I can do that.

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7 hours ago, Hanna Seariac said:

I saw a lot of talk about my Twitter activity, so thought I would respond. Threads of mine have already been shared here and I still agree with them. I did an all my views post a while ago, where I condemned white supremacy and white nationalism entirely (I have never thought racism was acceptable, please feel free to comb through my very public presence on Twitter, Medium, and Facebook and read my material; the vast majority of my content is well within the boundaries that the Church has set. My minimal political posting has been critical of progressives and of the alt-right. 

Here's an example of my typical content: https://hseariac.medium.com/social-justice-in-zion-f3969e54d55a 

My rule of thumb with tweeting is this: if a tweet is a good tweet, I will retweet it, but I am not responsible for all that person's views. I'm friendly with a lot of people on Twitter and elsewhere. Even if you *really* disagree with me, I am friendly with you. My only exceptions here are if you've tried to commit a crime against me or my friends or you false accuse me and my friends of crimes or you exclusively try to tear down the Church. Even then I am direct, but certainly quite polite still. I see no reason not to be friendly with as many people as possible and be kind. I have cultivated many relationships this way with people from progressive to fundamentalist religiously and of many political persuasions. I'm really influenced by Daryl Davis' approach to getting to know people. 

If you're really invested in seeing my Twitter, look at it for yourself and judge the tweets if you feel so inclined to do that: https://twitter.com/HannaSeariac If you even want to ask me about any of my views, feel free to DM me there. I'm a pretty open person. Personally, I think we need more kindness and communication, not less. That's what I'm committed to doing while still putting God first. 

I might agree in a different context. But Twitter and the hashtags are a different sort of propaganda and influence aggregator. The DezNat hashtag is a very loaded one and you essentially promote it when you retweet it.

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10 hours ago, Ian Law said:

I think one of the big problems here is that apologists seem to operate independently of the church. I could not imagine the church allowing or dismissing as "no big deal" with the acronym "TITS" if the videos were produced by CES insted of FM. And certainly I could not imagine apologists reposting and doubling down on violent and graphic videos against its critics if apologists were directly accountable to CES, the bishop, or the stake president for their calling. 

The big takeaway from these incidents is that the time has come for the church to exercise direct oversight over apologetics and apologists. 

The big takeaway for me is that the initial authoritarian structure produces lots of lower-level authoritarians, and it trains people to accept an approved form of authority.

LDS offshoots, for example, wouldn't be so dangerous if people weren't already looking for or used to authoritarian leadership.

People who depend upon authority seek to interface with it, and will then be more likely to seek proxies in its place, especially innocuous ones which they believe are acting with the approval of the top.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

that really all you see from exmormons? A steady stream of crap-slinging? 

How many times does Juliann have to say she is talking about a certain type of ex Mormon?...if they don’t sling the crap, she is not referring to them. 
 

Perhaps this is another needing a pin statement. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

How many times does Juliann have to say she is talking about a certain type of ex Mormon?...if they don’t sling the crap, she is not referring to them. 
 

Perhaps this is another needing a pin statement. 

Nah, she made a general statement:

Quote

Merely yelling at Mormons to stop when all we see is a steady stream of it from them isn't compelling.

If she is only talking about some exmos then she could be more careful in her wording. 

It's circular rhetoric and at the heart of whataboutisms.  On the other hand, what can any of us do about harmful rhetoric of our associates? What can one do personally? What can one do as a prominent influencer? What can one do as a member of FAIR? What can church leaders do? In every one of these situations, there is more or less a person can do about it. 

 

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12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

she is only talking about some exmos then she could be more careful in her wording. 

Sure. And you could give her the benefit of the doubt based on what she has been saying the last 15 years.  At least ask for clarification without making it loaded emotionally, as in something more like “given what you have said in the past, I assume you mean some exmos, please correct me if I am wrong”.  The indignation gets old and hollow. 

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, Analytics said:

For the record, it turns out I got most of it from my own imagination. I misunderstood a few of the details I heard and made some unwarranted interpolations. I retract why I’ve said on this topic. Thank you for pointing out the inconsistencies in my narrative.

Thanks so much for clarifying!

So did Dehlin actually contact Cardon after he called 911?  I’m not trying to rub salt into wounds, it’s a sincere question. I’m confused on what is actually known about the incident and what isn’t. 

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5 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

What image are you talking about?

The one about the temple being an cult escape room.  You know, the one you enthusiastically endorsed because the big bad LDS Church is so mean to people who want leave.

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13 hours ago, Rain said:

This sounds awful - and I have mixed feelings about apologetics.

I think the church prefers to do it the way they do with charities. The church has found it is much more effective to support charities that are already out there.  That's one reason they created JustServe.  There are a few rules like no fundraising or political projects and rules about tax status, but otherwise the church is hands off even if the charity doesn't completely align with the church.  

We are told we should be anxiously engaged.  That we shouldn't need to wait for God to tell us what to do.  

It's like that with apologetics.  There are reasons the church allows us to have agency in this matter.  Mistakes will be made, but mistakes are also made on ward and stake levels and even even general church levels. So you learn from them. That's part of having agency and learning to become like God.

Yes, it can be a mixed bag. The Church needs members with all sorts of talents, trades, professions, avocations, etc., apologetics among them. Not all are good at what they do. And anyone can compromise their spirituality for the sake of their job or hobby. Even the apologist can be misguided, and even succumb to using the techniques of Sherem. Nehor and Korihor in countering the critic, especially when things get contentious.

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24 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks so much for clarifying!

So did Dehlin actually contact Cardon after he called 911?  I’m not trying to rub salt into wounds, it’s a sincere question. I’m confused on what is actually known about the incident and what isn’t. 

No, he did reach out to Cardon Saturday morning when he was very publicly figuring out how to react, and then called the police that afternoon. That much of what I said is true.

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28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sure. And you could give her the benefit of the doubt based on what she has been saying the last 15 years.  At least ask for clarification without making it loaded emotionally, as in something more like “given what you have said in the past, I assume you mean some exmos, please correct me if I am wrong”.  The indignation gets old and hollow. 

Sorry, but I don't think it's reasonable for any poster to rely on 15 years of subtext for their remarks. (@Juliann that is just to Calm, I am not going to assume you are depending on that yourself.)

And I did ask her to clarify, in a calm and civil manner. The "crap slinging" phrase was another poster's words she agreed to.

 

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15 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

The one about the temple being an cult escape room.  You know, the one you enthusiastically endorsed because the big bad LDS Church is so mean to people who want leave.

No, you did not just post that picture. You said, "This is the first image I see on r/exmormon Spare me the crocodile tears for those poor exmos who are persecuted by the big bad church. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen."

and I responded:

Quote

There's no "getting out" for people who are raised in the church with most of their family of friends in the church. I'd rather the environment we share be better for the believers and nonbelievers alike.

 I certainly did not "enthusiastically endorse" that image.

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1 minute ago, Meadowchik said:

No, you did not just post that picture. You said, "This is the first image I see on r/exmormon Spare me the crocodile tears for those poor exmos who are persecuted by the big bad church. If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen."

and I responded:

 I certainly did not "enthusiastically endorse" that image.

I wouldn't say there's no getting out, but as my therapist once said, "They don't make it easy to leave, do they?" (And no, my saying so does not imply approval of that silly graphic from reddit.)

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17 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

How does this image contribute to make "the environment we share [better] for the believers and nonbelivers alike"?

You cannot claim that the exmo/progmo form of crap-slinging at Church members is justifed while complaining that some of those members eventually get tired of being told how stupid they are and start fighting back.

So to answer your question about the image posted on exmormon, the exmormon reddit is not a shared environment. I don't go vent about the church when I attend LDS services, or in peoples' homes when it is unwelcome. The exmo reddit processes a lot of garbage, but also alot of good happens there too. I think it's good that exmos have a place where they can go to blow off steam. That in turn can be helpful for when they have to return to a very controlled LDS environment and maintain relationships with their LDS loved ones. 

That said, the exmo reddit still has rules against personal attacks. 

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11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

I wouldn't say there's no getting out, but as my therapist once said, "They don't make it easy to leave, do they?" (And no, my saying so does not imply approval of that silly graphic from reddit.)

I appreciate that, but I qualified it with the part "with most of their family of friends in the church." The assumption is that there is no getting away from that heat if they maintain those relationships. There's just ways to adapt to it, but that can also depend on the loved ones' willingness to adapt, too.

 

 

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Just now, Meadowchik said:

I appreciate that, but I qualified it with the part "with most of their family of friends in the church." The assumption is that there is no getting away from that heat if they maintain those relationships. There's just ways to adapt to it, but that can also depend on the loved ones' willingness to adapt, too.

That is quite true. Mutual respect has worked for us.

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2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I think it's good that exmos have a place where they can go to blow off steam.

I think it is great too.

I also think that believing Church members should also have a place and means to "blow off steam" as well.  When you "blow off steam" by dumping on someone's deeply held religious convictions, then it should come as no when steam is blown back in your direction from time to time.

I'm just really tired of this big-bad-Church narrative.  People blame the Church when, in fact, they simply have dysfunctional families/relationships. If a person's family chooses to make their exit from the Church difficult, that's not a Church problem, your family sucks.

If your Mormon friends abandon you when you leave, they are crappy people and bad friends.  Mormonism has nothing to do with it.

Exmos need to take responsibility for their own lives and happiness and stop blaming the Church for all their problems.

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6 minutes ago, Ipod Touch said:

I think it is great too.

I also think that believing Church members should also have a place and means to "blow off steam" as well.  When you "blow off steam" by dumping on someone's deeply held religious convictions, then it should come as no when steam is blown back in your direction from time to time.

I'm just really tired of this big-bad-Church narrative.  People blame the Church when, in fact, they simply have dysfunctional families/relationships. If a person's family chooses to make their exit from the Church difficult, that's not a Church problem, your family sucks.

If your Mormon friends abandon you when you leave, they are crappy people and bad friends.  Mormonism has nothing to do with it.

Exmos need to take responsibility for their own lives and happiness and stop blaming the Church for all their problems.

Apparently, you haven't been through this process. Acknowledging that, even in the best family situations, leaving the church is difficult and painful (by design) is not "blaming the church" for all our problems. What a silly post.

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