Fair Mormon's new YouTube branding strategy

[bluebell]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

I have been informed Kwaku is an actual BYU student on track to graduate in a few semesters or less. 
 

Burke was apparently telling people to make false reports about Kwaku to BYU.

If Burke is spreading lies then he needs to be called out on it.

[rchorse]

I find the videos to be, as my kids would say, "cringy". To me, they are embarrassing and will not be persuasive to anyone struggling with these questions.

But I'm also not a Gen Z doubter or anything, so what do I know? 

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Jesus was especially harsh in His denunciation of Pharisees and other “blind guides” of His day whom He viewed as misleading the people of God (essentially what Runnels and his anti-Mormon cohorts are doing today). If this also “feels wrong” and is “cringe inducing” to you, then I can somewhat take your point. But if not, I think you are being inconsistent. 

I don't think anyone's going to watch those videos and feel like this is the sort of the thing Jesus would do. I'm under no illusions that Jesus was always gentle, meek, and mild with his opponents and with those who rejected his message. But this isn't the same, as bluebell has pointed out.

It's not the harshness I object to. I think Runnells's CES Letter deserves strong criticism and I've never been one to say that apologetics must be anodyne and milquetoast. I defended Greg Smith's so-called "hit piece" on John Dehlin, for example, and I myself have pointedly criticized Grant Palmer's work. I've also been critical of Runnells's work, which I think is dishonest and misleading.

What I object to in these videos is the tone. It's crude, mean-spirited, demeaning, bullying, belittling. It adopts the worst anti-Mormon tactics to combat anti-Mormon arguments. I don't see that as a win. It's just non-stop insults and mockery, performed as cheap entertainment (supposedly what the kids like these days). There is nothing about it befitting disciples of Jesus Christ.

I am reminded of this passage from the New Testament:

Quote

52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.
53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

I think those involved in the production of This Is the Show "know not what manner of spirit [they] are of."

Edited December 1, 2020 by Nevo

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Jesus was especially harsh in His denunciation of Pharisees and other “blind guides” of His day whom He viewed as misleading the people of God (essentially what Runnels and his anti-Mormon cohorts are doing today). If this also “feels wrong” and is “cringe inducing” to you, then I can somewhat take your point. But if not, I think you are being inconsistent. 

 We cannot justify our offensive and unkind words because of Christ's harsh denunciation of the Pharisees.   Christ had abilities to see the heart and judge in ways that we are incapable of.  He was justified in judging others while commanding us not to.  He was justified in condemning others while commanding us not to.  Christ was justified in not forgiving others, but he commanded us to forgive all.  Christ was therefore justified in his remarks, but we have no such justification.  On the contrary we have been commanded by both ancient and modern prophets to use our tongue differently.  That is something that we should all aspire to (heaven knows I need work) and should not sustain those who mock others and are generally mean-spirited in defense of our faith. 

Was Elder Holland being inconsistent in his remarks?  I don't think we are justified in dismissing Elder Holland and all of these ancient and modern prophets.  This is just a small sample - the will of the Lord in this regard seems overwhelmingly clear:

 

2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,25IN MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

“Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Eph. 4:1–3, 29, 31–32.)

Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

“Be swift to hear, [but] slow to speak.” (James 1:19.)

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, … this man’s religion is vain. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 1:26; James 3:2.)

“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.” (D&C 121:41–42.)

Colossians 3:12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.—16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.—31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
 

Edited December 1, 2020 by pogi

[smac97]

I am curious as to what you all think of the "Saints Unscripted" channel on YouTube.  I have watched about five of these videos and have, so far, appreciated the attempt to appeal to the younger crowd.  The visuals/graphics/audio are vibrant and fast-paced, yet the tone and tenor - while more lighthearted - still has decorum and civility.

Consider, for example, this video: "Who can you trust when you're trying to understand Mormonism?" 

Pretty even-handed.  

So, thoughts?  Is Scripts Unscripted doing a better job?

Kwaku is apparently involved with this channel, BTW.

Thanks,

-Smac

[juliann]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

My friend said the same. That having a 20 something male talk about his sex life and then imply that there’s basically “nothing to see here” on the polygamy one is a slap in the face to members, mostly women, who really really struggle with JS’s practice of polygamy.

I don’t particularly mind the delivery, it’s just different than the more droning academic or church presentations we associate with authority. I didn’t find it mean spirited which is I think, is a critical distinction perhaps lost in cancel culture. 
 

But the information in the polygamy video was a rehash of the nonsense claim that sex within marriage has to be proven or it didn’t happen. And that there is a meaningful distinction between eternal or time sealings. That is a presentism argument if there ever is one. Soooo much question begging. They are also oblivious to D&C 132 sanctioning polyandry under the right circumstance. The content of this one is unsupportable. When you walk a fine line when spoofing, accuracy is key. 
 

 

 

 

[pogi]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am curious as to what you all think of the "Saints Unscripted" channel on YouTube.  I have watched about five of these videos and have, so far, appreciated the attempt to appeal to the younger crowd.  The visuals/graphics/audio are vibrant and fast-paced, yet the tone and tenor - while more lighthearted - still has decorum and civility.

Consider, for example, this video: "Who can you trust when you're trying to understand Mormonism?" 

Pretty even-handed.  

So, thoughts?  Is Scripts Unscripted doing a better job?

Kwaku is apparently involved with this channel, BTW.

Thanks,

-Smac

I appreciate this approach so much more!

One great quote from the video:

"...but hostile or not, we need to be kind, patient, and understand that good people can disagree on religion and still be good people."

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I am curious as to what you all think of the "Saints Unscripted" channel on YouTube.  I have watched about five of these videos and have, so far, appreciated the attempt to appeal to the younger crowd.  The visuals/graphics/audio are vibrant and fast-paced, yet the tone and tenor - while more lighthearted - still has decorum and civility.

Consider, for example, this video: "Who can you trust when you're trying to understand Mormonism?" 

Pretty even-handed.  

So, thoughts?  Is Scripts Unscripted doing a better job?

Kwaku is apparently involved with this channel, BTW.

Thanks,

-Smac

I liked it.  Relevant but not cringey.  

[HappyJackWagon]

21 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That can't be right.

I can't imagine FAIR put out a T.I.T.S mocking CES style issues.

OK. So apparently I was wrong   FAIR did exactly what was described. 

 

I finally went out and watched a few of them. I was expecting to hate them and be massively offended. As it turns out I only dislike them and am only mildly offended.

Are the videos dismissive of people with legitimate concerns? Yes. 

Do they depict all critics as unthinking space cadets and/or radical, semi-violent imbeciles? Yes.

Do the news commentator apologists appear to be know-it-all jackwagons? Well, yes. But the hubris of the young is enchanting.

Does the newscast come across as Christlike in any way, shape or form? Nah. (not to be confused with NHM)

BUT I think a lot of younger people will really enjoy this style. In todays society kind communication is less important than sticking it to the other guy and showing how tough and smart you are, which these videos do. The presenters are certain. They wave aside any problem with their hand and a smirk and that will honestly be enough for many youngsters who are really just looking for a little validation that it's ok to believe what they believe. These videos won't convince anyone but don't underestimate the value of validation. It could make all the difference in steering youngsters away from delving into difficult topics which could result in faith crisis.

[pogi]

37 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do the news commentator apologists appear to be know-it-all jackwagons? Well, yes.

There is only one JackWagon around here, Happy! 

[juliann]

34 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

OK. So apparently I was wrong   FAIR did exactly what was described. 

 

I finally went out and watched a few of them. I was expecting to hate them and be massively offended. As it turns out I only dislike them and am only mildly offended.

Are the videos dismissive of people with legitimate concerns? Yes. 

Do they depict all critics as unthinking space cadets and/or radical, semi-violent imbeciles? Yes.

Do the news commentator apologists appear to be know-it-all jackwagons? Well, yes. But the hubris of the young is enchanting.

Does the newscast come across as Christlike in any way, shape or form? Nah. (not to be confused with NHM)

BUT I think a lot of younger people will really enjoy this style. In todays society kind communication is less important than sticking it to the other guy and showing how tough and smart you are, which these videos do. The presenters are certain. They wave aside any problem with their hand and a smirk and that will honestly be enough for many youngsters who are really just looking for a little validation that it's ok to believe what they believe. These videos won't convince anyone but don't underestimate the value of validation. It could make all the difference in steering youngsters away from delving into difficult topics which could result in faith crisis.

All that makes them a good match for Runnells, correct? That is what it addresses. Merits of either aside, people who allow for the CES Letter have no standing to complain about this. Goose gander and all that. 

One of the constant criticisms of the church is how it is losing younger people because they in touch....so I have to wonder if something that allegedly attracts them (I'll be interested to see evidence of this)  is the problem for some more than the videos themselves.  I expect the LDS discomfort, but I'm far more interested, as usual, in the double standards.

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I am curious as to what you all think of the "Saints Unscripted" channel on YouTube.  I have watched about five of these videos and have, so far, appreciated the attempt to appeal to the younger crowd.  The visuals/graphics/audio are vibrant and fast-paced, yet the tone and tenor - while more lighthearted - still has decorum and civility.

Consider, for example, this video: "Who can you trust when you're trying to understand Mormonism?" 

Pretty even-handed.  

So, thoughts?  Is Scripts Unscripted doing a better job?

Kwaku is apparently involved with this channel, BTW.

Thanks,

-Smac

This is much, much better.

[The Mean Farmer]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I am curious as to what you all think of the "Saints Unscripted" channel on YouTube.  I have watched about five of these videos and have, so far, appreciated the attempt to appeal to the younger crowd.  The visuals/graphics/audio are vibrant and fast-paced, yet the tone and tenor - while more lighthearted - still has decorum and civility.

Consider, for example, this video: "Who can you trust when you're trying to understand Mormonism?" 

Pretty even-handed.  

So, thoughts?  Is Scripts Unscripted doing a better job?

Kwaku is apparently involved with this channel, BTW.

Thanks,

-Smac

I haven't heard of Script Unscripted, but that was SO MUCH BETTER than the smack talking videos presented from the OP!    I'll watch more of these.

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

I haven't heard of Script Unscripted, but that was SO MUCH BETTER than the smack talking videos presented from the OP!    I'll watch more of these.

I compiled excerpts of the commentary in this thread and sent it to Scott Gordon, along with Saints Unscripted as a "counter-example" of how "This Is The Show" could handle things.

Kwaku seems to be involved in both efforts.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I compiled excerpts of the commentary in this thread and sent it to Scott Gordon, along with Saints Unscripted as a "counter-example" of how "This Is The Show" could handle things.

Kwaku seems to be involved in both efforts.

Thanks,

-Smac

Thanks, that saves me the effort. 
 

I believe it is Kwaku’s work in the Saints Unscripted that led to the work with FM. 

[HappyJackWagon]

28 minutes ago, juliann said:

All that makes them a good match for Runnells, correct? That is what it addresses. Merits of either aside, people who allow for the CES Letter have no standing to complain about this. Goose gander and all that. 

One of the constant criticisms of the church is how it is losing younger people because they in touch....so I have to wonder if something that allegedly attracts them (I'll be interested to see evidence of this)  is the problem for some more than the videos themselves.  I expect the LDS discomfort, but I'm far more interested, as usual, in the double standards.

I hear this position quite a bit and I admit it surprises me each time. I would hope the church and it's apologists would reach for a higher standard than Runnells.

IF the church and its apologists want to behave like him and counter rudeness with rudeness, they can. But for a church seeking to lead people to a more Christlike way, their own standards should be higher and they should be held to that higher standard. Is it a double standard? Yes. Do people expect more from the church than from its critics? Yes. But in my opinion apologists should hope to raise the standard of others instead of lowering theirs. Complaining about a double standard is a "duh" kind of whine. In my humble opinion you should be happy that people expect more from the church and apologists.

[juliann]

12 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

 

IF the church and its apologists want to behave like him and counter rudeness with rudeness, they can. But for a church seeking to lead people to a more Christlike way, their own standards should be higher and they should be held to that higher standard. Is it a double standard? Yes. Do people expect more from the church than from its critics? Yes. But in my opinion apologists should hope to raise the standard of others instead of lowering theirs. Complaining about a double standard is a "duh" kind of whine. In my humble opinion you should be happy that people expect more from the church and apologists.

That only works if "the rudeness" is the same. It isn't. This isn't mean spirited. It's not vulgar. It's very consistent with comedy today minus those things. At that point, you have to make the argument that "apologists" shouldn't be funny. Just..... because. And Jesus. Or something.

Quote

I hear this position quite a bit and I admit it surprises me each time. I would hope the church and it's apologists would reach for a higher standard than Runnells.

First, this isn't "the church." Come on. I suspect they are reaching for the same audience. Throwing standards in sounds more like an ad hominem cheap shot.  Again, you need to demonstrate that this is comparable to what critics put out day in and day out.  That podcast with Thrones in the name comes to mind. That was considered funny by it's audience, correct? No comparison. 

[strappinglad]

So...... South Park meets FAIR ????

[Derl Sanderson]

Kwaku also seems to have an association of some sort with Book of Mormon Central.

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

The word doesn't bother me anymore

I remember the first time I heard it, at around age 10 or so. Went to my dad and asked what it meant. He was aghast and asked where I had heard it, and I said it was some kid I had briefly interacted with that day. He told me it was a very bad word (didn't explain why, as I hadn't yet had the B&B discussion), and to stay away from that kid. I never saw him again, in any case, and years later I remember quite vividly encountering it in print for the first time, in a science fiction novel by Norman Spinrad. It was quite a shock.

And then I spent 8 years in the US Army, and all that went before was suddenly as tame as a fluffy bunny rabbit.

And as annoying as I find Kwaku, I believe there is a place for him, because not everyone is as stodgy as I am. Would you believe that next year (if I make it that far) I will be 70, sometime around October 3rd? It's amazing. I still feel just 27 years old, as long as I stay away from mirrors.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Derl Sanderson said:

Kwaku also seems to have an association of some sort with Book of Mormon Central.

He was also one of the original Three Mormons of the Three Mormons YouTube channel (now redubbed Saints Unscripted). He's gone solo now, however.

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Do they depict all critics as unthinking space cadets and/or radical, semi-violent imbeciles? Yes.

What? Do you mean to say they aren't? Wow! Who'd a thunk it?  

[The Mean Farmer]

I showed two of these videos to my wife, 24 year old returned missionary daughter, and 16 year old son.

They loved them.  

 

They found them engaging, funny, and informative.

 

I showed them the Saints Unscripted video above and they thought the information was good, but they didn't like the presentation method.  Daughter said she would have turned it off if she had the remote.

 

Surprised me to say the least.

 

Perhaps FairMormon knows more about their  audience than we give them credit for.

Feel free to get that to Scott Gordon also.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, pogi said:

 We cannot justify our offensive and unkind words because of Christ's harsh denunciation of the Pharisees.   Christ had abilities to see the heart and judge in ways that we are incapable of.  He was justified in judging others while commanding us not to.  He was justified in condemning others while commanding us not to.  Christ was justified in not forgiving others, but he commanded us to forgive all.  Christ was therefore justified in his remarks, but we have no such justification.  On the contrary we have been commanded by both ancient and modern prophets to use our tongue differently.  That is something that we should all aspire to (heaven knows I need work) and should not sustain those who mock others and are generally mean-spirited in defense of our faith. 

Was Elder Holland being inconsistent in his remarks?  I don't think we are justified in dismissing Elder Holland and all of these ancient and modern prophets.  This is just a small sample - the will of the Lord in this regard seems overwhelmingly clear:

 

2 Tim 2:23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,25IN MEEKNESS instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

James 4:11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

“Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Eph. 4:1–3, 29, 31–32.)

Titus 3:2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

“Be swift to hear, [but] slow to speak.” (James 1:19.)

“If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, … this man’s religion is vain. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 1:26; James 3:2.)

“No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile.” (D&C 121:41–42.)

Colossians 3:12Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye. 14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. 15And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. 16Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.—16For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.—31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

Proverbs 15:1 A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger.
 

I saw your protracted lecturing and essentially scrolled on past it without reading. Just letting you know. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

I am curious as to what you all think of the "Saints Unscripted" channel on YouTube.  I have watched about five of these videos and have, so far, appreciated the attempt to appeal to the younger crowd.  The visuals/graphics/audio are vibrant and fast-paced, yet the tone and tenor - while more lighthearted - still has decorum and civility.

Consider, for example, this video: "Who can you trust when you're trying to understand Mormonism?" 

Pretty even-handed.  

So, thoughts?  Is Scripts Unscripted doing a better job?

Kwaku is apparently involved with this channel, BTW.

Thanks,

-Smac

If I recall correctly, it was my first exposure to Kwaku. I quite liked it.