MustardSeed Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 As a seminary teacher this year, I"m looking at tomorrow's lesson on the Lamanites joining the Nephites and the description of their skin turning light. Since I'm uncomfortable with the possible implications of righteousness = light skin, what is your opinion of me simply skipping this chapter so as to avoid this conversation? Would it be advisable to suggest they read it themselves and talk with their parents if they have any questions about that chapter? Not make any big deal about it just make the comment and move on?
Rain Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 I would be perfectly fine with you just asking my kids what they felt about it and letting them feel safe about them expressing themselves while sharing how you trust God despite things like this making you uncomfortable. 4
CV75 Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 10 hours ago, MustardSeed said: As a seminary teacher this year, I"m looking at tomorrow's lesson on the Lamanites joining the Nephites and the description of their skin turning light. Since I'm uncomfortable with the possible implications of righteousness = light skin, what is your opinion of me simply skipping this chapter so as to avoid this conversation? Would it be advisable to suggest they read it themselves and talk with their parents if they have any questions about that chapter? Not make any big deal about it just make the comment and move on? I do not think it should be skipped. You might explain that some people view this as literal, and others view it as figurative. Either way, the eternal principles are the same: 1. righteousness brings blessings and rebellion brings curses and 2. God deals with His people within the parameters of their cultural expression and language (which are often limited) and may be misunderstood by other cultures without the aid of the Spirit. When we read the Book of Mormon, we are looking for eternal principles and their confirmation by the Spirit (Moroni's promise). 2
Kevin Christensen Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) Read Skins as Garments in the Book of Mormon by Ethan Sproat in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol24/iss1/7/ FWIW, Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA Edited October 30, 2020 by Kevin Christensen Added link. 1
teddyaware Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, MustardSeed said: As a seminary teacher this year, I"m looking at tomorrow's lesson on the Lamanites joining the Nephites and the description of their skin turning light. Since I'm uncomfortable with the possible implications of righteousness = light skin, what is your opinion of me simply skipping this chapter so as to avoid this conversation? Would it be advisable to suggest they read it themselves and talk with their parents if they have any questions about that chapter? Not make any big deal about it just make the comment and move on? It should simply be explained as a simile for the degrees of glory in the resurrection. When the formerly spiritually unenlightened Lamanites first listened with open hearts to the preaching of the gospel, exercised living faith in Christ, descended in the depths of humility with broken hearts and contrite spirits, sincerely repented of their sins, and were finally baptized by water and the Spirt, they received a great infusion of redeeming spiritual light, a great transformation from a very real state of spiritual darkness to one of dazzling spiritual light that was plainly discernible to those previously redeemed souls who were already existing in a state of spiritual enlightenment. Just as the redeemed souls in the resurrection will be easily identified by the degree of glory they have obtained, the formerly spiritually unenlightened Lamanites were easily identified by the righteous Nephites when the Lamanites passed from a state of spiritual darkness to a redeemed and spiritually enlightened state because “if you live close to God, in his infinite grace, you don’t have to tell it shows on your face.” Edited October 30, 2020 by teddyaware 1
CV75 Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 13 hours ago, MustardSeed said: As a seminary teacher this year, I"m looking at tomorrow's lesson on the Lamanites joining the Nephites and the description of their skin turning light. Since I'm uncomfortable with the possible implications of righteousness = light skin, what is your opinion of me simply skipping this chapter so as to avoid this conversation? Would it be advisable to suggest they read it themselves and talk with their parents if they have any questions about that chapter? Not make any big deal about it just make the comment and move on? A 2nd comment in addition to the one I posted above: President Oaks, in this talk, https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/president-oaks-byu-devotional-october-2020-talk says (in part): -------------------------- Current efforts to identify and eliminate personal and official racism are best accomplished if we understand its relationship to scriptural references in the Old Testament and even the New Testament. As believers relying on scriptural history, we can be troubled and misled by Bible-recorded scriptural directions or traditions that may be viewed as racist or discriminatory by modern definition. For example, within the tribes of Israel, only members of the tribe of Levi were accepted for service in the temple.[16] The Israelites were forbidden to marry the Canaanites and some others of surrounding lands.[17] The direction for Jews not to associate with Samaritans was because of their partial descent from non-Israelite peoples.[18] Most importantly, the gospel was not to be taught to Gentiles (non-Israelites). Jesus Himself affirmed that restriction in strong language (“not meet to take the children’s bread and to cast it to dogs”[19]), but then made an exception for a faith-filled mother.[20] During His mortal ministry Jesus reversed the prohibition against associating with the Samaritans,[21] and by revelation after His mortal life He revoked the prohibition against taking the gospel to the Gentiles.[22] But these and other restrictions remain in scriptural history. Using current definitions, some might call such divine actions and prophet-taught principles racist, but God, who is the loving Father of all nations, tribes, and ethnicities,[23] cannot be branded as racist for His dealings with His children. Often the reasons for His plan are not known or understandable to mortals. “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,” He said through the Prophet Isaiah, “neither are your ways my ways” (Isaiah 55:8). Some have rejected some element of God’s plan as unreasonable according to cultural norms they could understand or accept.[24] Others, who have accepted God’s plan, have mistakenly relied on cultural norms to provide reasons God has not revealed.[25] Thus, both non-believers and believers can reject or attempt to amend divine plans by relying on cultural norms instead of the directions of God. The safest course is not to reject or supplement the divine plan by human reasoning. Those who cannot accept the prophetic decisions and practices of the past should consider Winston Churchill’s wise counsel quoted earlier: “[I]f we open a quarrel between the past and the present, we shall find that we have lost the future.” ------------------------------------------ 2
bluebell Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 I like Rain's idea. I wouldn't want the chapter to be skipped since kids are going to have to confront it eventually. 3
The Mean Farmer Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) Marvin Perkins is your friend here. Edited October 30, 2020 by The Mean Farmer 2
Popular Post Derl Sanderson Posted October 30, 2020 Popular Post Posted October 30, 2020 Let me say a big AMEN to Kevin's referencing the essay "Skins as Garments in the Book of Mormon: A Textual Exegesis" by Ethan Sproat. It is as good as anything I've read. You can find it here. And seeing as Kevin is apparently hesitant to blow his own horn, let me do it and also recommend to you his own excellent essay in Interpreter where he cites Sproat's work. 6
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted October 30, 2020 Author Popular Post Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) Thank you all for the insightful feedback - I taught the lesson, we read it, the kids reacted on their own with shock and awe. So I told them the story of my husband on his mission converting a man who physically changed before everyone's eyes, and how hope changes folks. I also mentioned that I see this phenomenon in my work when people start out depressed and end up treating it and becoming well, how the renewed hope is reflected in posture,tone of voice, bags and circles under eyes, and radiance of skin and hair. I shared with them the recent words of pres. oaks and reminded them of the messages from conference. Then, I said, "the church you are a part of today does not support racist ideas. I don't tolerate racism. Our Heavenly Father loves us all. No one is less than anyone else. " Then I said "if you have further questions, talk to your parents." I decided to dive in because I don't want anyone to say nobody told them that this type of thing was in the BOM. I also told them its OK to wrestle with their faith. Edited October 30, 2020 by MustardSeed 9
Vanguard Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said: Thank you all for the insightful feedback - I taught the lesson, we read it, the kids reacted on their own with shock and awe. So I told them the story of my husband on his mission converting a man who physically changed before everyone's eyes, and how hope changes folks. I also mentioned that I see this phenomenon in my work when people start out depressed and end up treating it and becoming well, how the renewed hope is reflected in posture,tone of voice, bags and circles under eyes, and radiance of skin and hair. I shared with them the recent words of pres. oaks and reminded them of the messages from conference. Then, I said, "the church you are a part of today does not support racist ideas. I don't tolerate racism. Our Heavenly Father loves us all. No one is less than anyone else. " Then I said "if you have further questions, talk to your parents." I decided to dive in because I don't want anyone to say nobody told them that this type of thing was in the BOM. I also told them its OK to wrestle with their faith. Thanks for sharing what is a very sensitive topic and more importantly, a very sensitive real life experience you were willing to risk for the students' benefit. : ) You seemed to handle the topic quite well. Having said that, I'd like to offer up my own critique of two things you mentioned that you might find helpful the next time around - 1) Make sure to best insure the students do not conflate the idea of 'radiance of skin' to mean a lightened skin color. There can be no connection. Extreme black skin can radiate the wonderful qualities of gospel conversion just as much as the lightest color of skin. 2) What happens if some of your students don't have parents they can go to for clarification and commentary? Making it clear you can fill that role as best you can I think would be important for them to know. Many times (as I'm sure you're aware) a solid bond between student and teacher can be more powerful than anything a student will receive at home. And what are black youth to do? Do you have any in your class? If not, rest assured the dynamic both spoken and unspoken would be radically different and even more sensitive if you did. These are just two thoughts that occurred to me immediately. Typing it out also reminds me of how powerfully I feel about our Black brothers and sisters in and out of the church. : ) 3
Tacenda Posted October 30, 2020 Posted October 30, 2020 I would have hoped this wasn't in the seminary lesson. Just like racist things were left in the Sunday School manual. https://bycommonconsent.com/2020/01/19/what-to-do-with-that-embarassing-error-in-the-manual/ I think it needs to be discounted.
Popular Post Bernard Gui Posted October 30, 2020 Popular Post Posted October 30, 2020 (edited) 1. I would encourage the students to look at the Book in its entirety, not just at a few verses. I would point out several things. 2. I would invite them to consider the issue within the context of the Book of Mormon and not slavery-era America. Instruction on presentism would be helpful here and elsewhere. 3. This is a unique situation between family members, not different races. There is no evidence that this is about race in the Book of Mormon. a. 2 Nephi 5: 5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me. 6 Wherefore, it came to pass that I, Nephi, did take my family, and also Zoram and his family, and Sam, mine elder brother and his family, and Jacob and Joseph, my younger brethren, and also my sisters, and all those who would go with me. And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words. 7 And we did take our tents and whatsoever things were possible for us, and did journey in the wilderness for the space of many days. And after we had journeyed for the space of many days we did pitch our tents. 8 And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore, we did call it Nephi. b. 2 Nephi 5: 20 Wherefore, the word of the Lord was fulfilled which he spake unto me, saying that: Inasmuch as they will not hearken unto thy words they shall be cut off from the presence of the Lord. And behold, they were cut off from his presence. 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. 22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities. 23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done. 24 And because of their cursing which was upon them they did become an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety, and did seek in the wilderness for beasts of prey. 25 And the Lord God said unto me: They shall be a scourge unto thy seed, to stir them up in remembrance of me; and inasmuch as they will not remember me, and hearken unto my words, they shall scourge them even unto destruction. 4. There are many examples in the Book of Mormon that show it is not racist. At times the Lamanites were more favored of the Lord than the Nephites. Here are a few: a. 2 Nephi 26: 33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. b. Alma 17: 12 And it came to pass that the hearts of the sons of Mosiah, and also those who were with them, took courage to go forth unto the Lamanites to declare unto them the word of God. 13 And it came to pass when they had arrived in the borders of the land of the Lamanites, that they separated themselves and departed one from another, trusting in the Lord that they should meet again at the close of their harvest; for they supposed that great was the work which they had undertaken. 14 And assuredly it was great, for they had undertaken to preach the word of God to a wild and a hardened and a ferocious people; a people who delighted in murdering the Nephites, and robbing and plundering them; and their hearts were set upon riches, or upon gold and silver, and precious stones; yet they sought to obtain these things by murdering and plundering, that they might not labor for them with their own hands. 15 Thus they were a very indolent people, many of whom did worship idols, and the curse of God had fallen upon them because of the traditions of their fathers; notwithstanding the promises of the Lord were extended unto them on the conditions of repentance. c. Alma 23: 6 And as sure as the Lord liveth, so sure as many as believed, or as many as were brought to the knowledge of the truth, through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren, according to the spirit of revelation and of prophecy, and the power of God working miracles in them—yea, I say unto you, as the Lord liveth, as many of the Lamanites as believed in their preaching, and were converted unto the Lord, never did fall away. 7 For they became a righteous people; they did lay down the weapons of their rebellion, that they did not fight against God any more, neither against any of their brethren. d. Alma 27: 26 And it came to pass that it did cause great joy among them. And they went down into the land of Jershon, and took possession of the land of Jershon; and they were called by the Nephites the people of Ammon; therefore they were distinguished by that name ever after. 27 And they were among the people of Nephi, and also numbered among the people who were of the church of God. And they were also distinguished for their zeal towards God, and also towards men; for they were perfectly honest and upright in all things; and they were firm in the faith of Christ, even unto the end. 28 And they did look upon shedding the blood of their brethren with the greatest abhorrence; and they never could be prevailed upon to take up arms against their brethren; and they never did look upon death with any degree of terror, for their hope and views of Christ and the resurrection; therefore, death was swallowed up to them by the victory of Christ over it. 29 Therefore, they would suffer death in the most aggravating and distressing manner which could be inflicted by their brethren, before they would take the sword or cimeter to smite them. 30 And thus they were a zealous and beloved people, a highly favored people of the Lord. e. Helaman 15: 3 Yea, wo unto this people who are called the people of Nephi except they shall repent, when they shall see all these signs and wonders which shall be showed unto them; for behold, they have been a chosen people of the Lord; yea, the people of Nephi hath he loved, and also hath he chastened them; yea, in the days of their iniquities hath he chastened them because he loveth them. 4 But behold my brethren, the Lamanites hath he hated because their deeds have been evil continually, and this because of the iniquity of the tradition of their fathers. But behold, salvation hath come unto them through the preaching of the Nephites; and for this intent hath the Lord prolonged their days. 5 And I would that ye should behold that the more part of them are in the path of their duty, and they do walk circumspectly before God, and they do observe to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments according to the law of Moses. 6 Yea, I say unto you, that the more part of them are doing this, and they are striving with unwearied diligence that they may bring the remainder of their brethren to the knowledge of the truth; therefore there are many who do add to their numbers daily. 7 And behold, ye do know of yourselves, for ye have witnessed it, that as many of them as are brought to the knowledge of the truth, and to know of the wicked and abominable traditions of their fathers, and are led to believe the holy scriptures, yea, the prophecies of the holy prophets, which are written, which leadeth them to faith on the Lord, and unto repentance, which faith and repentance bringeth a change of heart unto them— 8 Therefore, as many as have come to this, ye know of yourselves are firm and steadfast in the faith, and in the thing wherewith they have been made free. 9 And ye know also that they have buried their weapons of war, and they fear to take them up lest by any means they should sin; yea, ye can see that they fear to sin—for behold they will suffer themselves that they be trodden down and slain by their enemies, and will not lift their swords against them, and this because of their faith in Christ. 10 And now, because of their steadfastness when they do believe in that thing which they do believe, for because of their firmness when they are once enlightened, behold, the Lord shall bless them and prolong their days, notwithstanding their iniquity— 11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth— 12 Yea, I say unto you, that in the latter times the promises of the Lord have been extended to our brethren, the Lamanites; and notwithstanding the many afflictions which they shall have, and notwithstanding they shall be driven to and fro upon the face of the earth, and be hunted, and shall be smitten and scattered abroad, having no place for refuge, the Lord shall be merciful unto them. 13 And this is according to the prophecy, that they shall again be brought to the true knowledge, which is the knowledge of their Redeemer, and their great and true shepherd, and be numbered among his sheep. 14 Therefore I say unto you, it shall be better for them than for you except ye repent.15 For behold, had the mighty works been shown unto them which have been shown unto you, yea, unto them who have dwindled in unbelief because of the traditions of their fathers, ye can see of yourselves that they never would again have dwindled in unbelief. 16 Therefore, saith the Lord: I will not utterly destroy them, but I will cause that in the day of my wisdom they shall return again unto me, saith the Lord. 17 And now behold, saith the Lord, concerning the people of the Nephites: If they will not repent, and observe to do my will, I will utterly destroy them, saith the Lord, because of their unbelief notwithstanding the many mighty works which I have done among them; and as surely as the Lord liveth shall these things be, saith the Lord. 5. The curse and its sign were removed at the time just before, and after the Jesus appeared to the Nephites the people were completely reunited. a. 3 Nephi 2: 12 Therefore, all the Lamanites who had become converted unto the Lord did unite with their brethren, the Nephites, and were compelled, for the safety of their lives and their women and their children, to take up arms against those Gadianton robbers, yea, and also to maintain their rights, and the privileges of their church and of their worship, and their freedom and their liberty. 13 And it came to pass that before this thirteenth year had passed away the Nephites were threatened with utter destruction because of this war, which had become exceedingly sore. 14 And it came to pass that those Lamanites who had united with the Nephites were numbered among the Nephites; 15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites; 16 And their young men and their daughters became exceedingly fair, and they were numbered among the Nephites, and were called Nephites. b. 4 Nephi 1: 17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God. 6. After the great Nephite apostasy at the end of their culture, the division between Lamanite and Nephite was political, not racial nor by "skin color." Even though the curse (being cut off from the present of God) was reinstated, there is no evidence the sign of the curse was reinstated because of their extreme wickedness. They became a dark and loathsome people, but that is not necessarily referring to "skin color" but rather wickedness. The promises to the Lamanites after Jesus's visit do not include any kind of change of "skin color." a. Mormon 5: 15 And also after the seed of this people may more fully believe his gospel, which shall go forth unto them from the Gentiles; for this people shall be scattered, and shall become a dark, a filthy, and a loathsome people, beyond the description of that which ever hath been amongst us, yea, even that which hath been among the Lamanites, and this because of their unbelief and idolatry. b. Moroni 10: 1 Now I, Moroni, write somewhat as seemeth me good; and I write unto my brethren, the Lamanites; and I would that they should know that more than four hundred and twenty years have passed away since the sign was given of the coming of Christ. 2 And I seal up these records, after I have spoken a few words by way of exhortation unto you. 3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. 30 And again I would exhort you that ye would come unto Christ, and lay hold upon every good gift, and touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing. 31 And awake, and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem; yea, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever, that thou mayest no more be confounded, that the covenants of the Eternal Father which he hath made unto thee, O house of Israel, may be fulfilled. 32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. 33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot. 7. The Book of Mormon promises the Atonement is available to all people, not just to "white skinned" people. It is better to be righteous than to be "white." 2 Nephi 9: 20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it. 21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam. 22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day. 23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. 26 For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. 45 O, my beloved brethren, turn away from your sins; shake off the chains of him that would bind you fast; come unto that God who is the rock of your salvation.46 Prepare your souls for that glorious day when justice shall be administered unto the righteous, even the day of judgment, that ye may not shrink with awful fear; that ye may not remember your awful guilt in perfectness, and be constrained to exclaim: Holy, holy are thy judgments, O Lord God Almighty—but I know my guilt; I transgressed thy law, and my transgressions are mine; and the devil hath obtained me, that I am a prey to his awful misery. 2 Nephi 26: 24 He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation. 27 Hath he commanded any that they should not partake of his salvation? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but he hath given it free for all men; and he hath commanded his people that they should persuade all men to repentance.28 Behold, hath the Lord commanded any that they should not partake of his goodness? Behold I say unto you, Nay; but allmen are privileged the one like unto the other, and none are forbidden. 32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.33 For none of these iniquities come of the Lord; for he doeth that which is good among the children of men; and he doeth nothing save it be plain unto the children of men; and he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile. Considering the entire context and history of the Book of Mormon, we should not feel obliged to accept the accusation that it is racist. Edited October 31, 2020 by Bernard Gui 5
MustardSeed Posted October 31, 2020 Author Posted October 31, 2020 5 hours ago, Vanguard said: Thanks for sharing what is a very sensitive topic and more importantly, a very sensitive real life experience you were willing to risk for the students' benefit. : ) You seemed to handle the topic quite well. Having said that, I'd like to offer up my own critique of two things you mentioned that you might find helpful the next time around - 1) Make sure to best insure the students do not conflate the idea of 'radiance of skin' to mean a lightened skin color. There can be no connection. Extreme black skin can radiate the wonderful qualities of gospel conversion just as much as the lightest color of skin. 2) What happens if some of your students don't have parents they can go to for clarification and commentary? Making it clear you can fill that role as best you can I think would be important for them to know. Many times (as I'm sure you're aware) a solid bond between student and teacher can be more powerful than anything a student will receive at home. And what are black youth to do? Do you have any in your class? If not, rest assured the dynamic both spoken and unspoken would be radically different and even more sensitive if you did. These are just two thoughts that occurred to me immediately. Typing it out also reminds me of how powerfully I feel about our Black brothers and sisters in and out of the church. : ) Thank you
mfbukowski Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 8 hours ago, The Mean Farmer said: Marvin Perkins is your friend here. This deserves repeating. I was about to post this myself and then this appeared. I have invited Marvin to a fireside or two and he is a wonderful man and very easy to work with. He lives just a few miles from me. 2
mfbukowski Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Considering the entire context and history of the Book of Mormon, we should not feel obliged to accept the accusation that it is racist. In fact I would be careful NOT to associate this with the "Blacks and the Priesthood" discussions- this is not about racism at all- the Marvin Perkins materials will help you understand if you do not understand it yet. We are all brown unless you are an albino and no one of course means that when they talk about "white people", some of us just have more melanin than others. Should that come up- I would take it straight along the Marvin Perkins approach This is a great opportunity to get those kids on the right track possibly before they hear any of the anti claims, and allow THEM to be able to answer others if needed. Edited October 31, 2020 by mfbukowski 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: In fact I would be careful NOT to associate this with the "Blacks and the Priesthood" discussions- this is not about racism at all- the Marvin Perkins materials will help you understand if you do not understand it yet. I came to that conclusion long ago while studying the issue in context of the BoM. I thought that was the point I was making. I guess I wasn’t successful. 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: We are all brown unless you are an albino and no one of course means that when they talk about "white people", some of us just have more melanin than others. Should that come up- I would take it straight along the Marvin Perkins approach This is a great opportunity to get those kids on the right track possibly before they hear any of the anti claims, and allow THEM to be able to answer others if needed. I agree that we should not ignore these things but seek to give honest and accurate answers. 2
mfbukowski Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 16 hours ago, CV75 said: I do not think it should be skipped. You might explain that some people view this as literal, and others view it as figurative. Either way, the eternal principles are the same: 1. righteousness brings blessings and rebellion brings curses and 2. God deals with His people within the parameters of their cultural expression and language (which are often limited) and may be misunderstood by other cultures without the aid of the Spirit. When we read the Book of Mormon, we are looking for eternal principles and their confirmation by the Spirit (Moroni's promise). I have told stories before about how I met people in the community before I was a member and I noticed that they had a kind of "light" in their countenances - and I seemed to be drawn to that quality. The first time I want to a stake conference after becoming a member, all those folks were there. True story 3
mfbukowski Posted October 31, 2020 Posted October 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: I agree that we should not ignore these things but seek to give honest and accurate answers. I hope I did not imply otherwise 1
Islander Posted November 1, 2020 Posted November 1, 2020 On 10/29/2020 at 8:07 PM, MustardSeed said: As a seminary teacher this year, I"m looking at tomorrow's lesson on the Lamanites joining the Nephites and the description of their skin turning light. Since I'm uncomfortable with the possible implications of righteousness = light skin, what is your opinion of me simply skipping this chapter so as to avoid this conversation? Would it be advisable to suggest they read it themselves and talk with their parents if they have any questions about that chapter? Not make any big deal about it just make the comment and move on? Do not skip the subject. Prepare yourself accordingly and if a question arises that you do not have the answer, just say so and promise to inquire with others and sources as to secure an appropriate response. This article is a good one: "Skins as Garments in the Book of Mormon" by Ethan Sproat in Journal of Book of Mormon Studies. https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol24/iss1/7/ I am of African descent and never shy away from topics that may be delicate or "controversial". We may not have an explanation but God does not do random. If there are errors, misinterpretations or omissions those are always OURS, fallen, imperfect creatures. Not ALL truth has been revealed. Beyond that, the event described in scripture has a cultural, historical and theological context that was unique. No everything we read in scripture applies to us. It is certainly beneficial to us from a spiritual standpoint, but not necessarily applicable today. 2
Bernard Gui Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 It occurred to me this week that the Nephites never sought to enslave the Lamanites. Just the opposite. 2
Calm Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 12 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: It occurred to me this week that the Nephites never sought to enslave the Lamanites. Just the opposite. They put prisoners of war to work. And we have the record from the Nephite POV. The Lamanites might tell a different story. 1
Bernard Gui Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, Calm said: They put prisoners of war to work. And we have the record from the Nephite POV. The Lamanites might tell a different story. ...to strengthen the Nephite defenses. That’s what prisoners of war do. Rarely are they treated humanely. Most often they die from neglect, starvation, or exhaustion. I think the record shows Nephite military leaders on the humane side. Prisoners either drain the resources of their captors, work for them, or are exchanged for other prisoners. The latter was the go-to goal of the Nephite leaders. For example, Helaman offered an exchange of prisoners, but the Lamanites refused. Moroni was able to negotiate a favorable exchange. There are numerous examples of Lamanites putting Nephites into bondage, often at the instigation of Nephite traitors. We need to find that lost Book of Laman. Of, wait! It has been found! 🙂 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1952286.The_Lost_Plates_of_Laman Twice! https://www.amazon.com/Book-Laman-Mette-Ivie-Harrison/dp/0998605247/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&hvadid=77927912225644&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=book+of+laman&qid=1604344398&sr=8-1&tag=mh0b-20 EDIT: The Nephites neither plotted nor endeavored to enslave Lamanites. Rather they sought to win them over by preaching the gospel to them, sometimes at great sacrifice and risk to themselves. Any time Lamanites came to the Nephites it was with weapons in the attitude of total war. Prisoners of war were taken by the Nephites only when Lamanites tried to enslave the Nephites. They never raided Lamanite country to enslave the people. Edited November 2, 2020 by Bernard Gui
Calm Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said: ...to strengthen the Nephite defenses. That’s what prisoners of war do. They either drain the resources of their captors or work for them. Helaman offered an exchange of prisoners, but the Lamanites refused. We need to find that lost Book of Laman. There are numerous examples of Lamanites putting Nephites into bondage, often at the instigation of Nephite traitors. I am not disagreeing that in the case of prisoners it is wrong to put them to work. But it is still enslavement to force them to imo.
bluebell Posted November 2, 2020 Posted November 2, 2020 32 minutes ago, Calm said: I am not disagreeing that in the case of prisoners it is wrong to put them to work. But it is still enslavement to force them to imo. Do you see it as enslavement when we do that today with our prison system?
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