The Ministry of Christ Was Heralded by the Angel Gabriel/ Noah, Was This a Repeat of His Ministry to a New World.

[Rajah Manchou]

3 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have never heard of someone being exhaled. Yes, it causes a problem because it is foreign to LDS doctrine

Or it could just be an autocorrection

[nuclearfuels]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:17 PM, Storm Rider said:

Will Islam fight against the Body of Christ in the last days? Maybe. 

Maybe?

Absolutely, definitely, repeatedly, and already.

[Storm Rider]

22 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Maybe?

Absolutely, definitely, repeatedly, and already.

I agree that Muslim nations continue to attack and persecute Christians. Most of their activity against Christians goes on without any news coverage in the Western news media. 

However, I pray that God has a plan for bringing them more fully into the Body of Christ in the future; that they will actually come to know Jesus Christ as the true Son of God and their Savior. If that does not happen, they will continue to be an intractable enemy of the Body of Christ. 

Having met so many friends while living in the Middle East, I remain hopeful. However, I do not underestimate the evil that faithful Muslims commit in Allah's name. I always remember that in all interactions I remain Kafir in their eyes. The less faithful they are in Islam the more I can trust them. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Storm Rider

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Or it could just be an autocorrection

Yes. It happens all the time. That could easily be noted in a follow-up post devoid of condescension.

[Jracforr]

On 9/28/2020 at 8:22 AM, Rajah Manchou said:

Or it could just be an autocorrection

I extend my sincere apology to all members on this board who have been Offended, Confused, Befuddled and Bewildered by my Posts on this Board. However these Post are accurate to the best of my Knowledge, and have been arrived at, after an extended period of reflection. I certainly do not expect others to agree to or understand them after viewing them for a few minutes.

[theplains]

On 9/26/2020 at 12:21 PM, Storm Rider said:

You are correct. That is why I said we interpret the term Son of God differently than Islam.  

We don't interpret the term Son of God as a procreated child of heavenly parents.

[Storm Rider]

12 minutes ago, theplains said:

We don't interpret the term Son of God as a procreated child of heavenly parents.

We must be talking past one another. My comment was only related to the difference between when Christians say Son of God and Muslims say the same thing. Jesus was not divine; was not a member of the Godhead; etc. Even though the Qur'an states Son of God, it is not the same thing. 

[Jracforr]

On 9/28/2020 at 4:25 AM, Maedros said:

Very interesting points of view but I worry that you're reading too much Apocrypha; the apocryphal views seem to dominate your view point; the gist of your response is correct (I would say) but that entire doctrine is readily available in the lds scriptures and words of modern prophets. I believe that it is best (for me) to stick to the cookie cut doctrines and teachings as they are the most aligning with the Lord's will for this time.

The scriptures written in the Apocrypha are mostly correct, though some errors are to be found in them. ( D&C 91) 

I understand your concern about relying on other sources of information other than the standard LDS works, but where these documents are found relevant, I have no reservations about using them. The very Book of Mormon in which we trust, was dismissed by Christian skeptics, for the same reason you are reluctant to see value in the Apocrypha , because they did not considered them to be standard literature . However as (2Nephi 29) states , the word of god is given to many nations, other than those we are familiar with, to prove he created all men and he remembers then in their diverse location.
 

2Nephi 29: 7-9

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Jracforr

[theplains]

On 10/3/2020 at 10:29 AM, Storm Rider said:

We must be talking past one another. My comment was only related to the difference between when Christians say Son of God and Muslims say the same thing

I am not aware of any passage in the Quran which states Jesus is the Son of God.

[mfbukowski]

On 9/26/2020 at 6:33 AM, Jracforr said:

Yes it is unique to Mormonism, it was revealed to the LDS that Noah was exhaled to become the Angel Gabriel. The general belief of the Mormons is that an individual who lives up to his highest potential on Earth, is capable of being exhaled to become as God is.

Let's forget about the typo with "exhaled" mistaken for "exalted", at least you could try to get the doctrine right.

No, angels are NOT exalted.

D&C 132

Quote

37 Abraham received aconcubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and bJacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their cexaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.

 

[mfbukowski]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:28 PM, Jracforr said:

I extend my sincere apology to all members on this board who have been Offended, Confused, Befuddled and Bewildered by my Posts on this Board. However these Post are accurate to the best of my Knowledge, and have been arrived at, after an extended period of reflection. I certainly do not expect others to agree to or understand them after viewing them for a few minutes.

And why should we devote more than that if we cannot even understand you?

You need to communicate it better.   I have a similar problem but at least I try to present a logical case. It appears to me that you are getting a lot of your ideas off of... uh... not well researched sites.

[mfbukowski]

On 10/12/2020 at 9:56 AM, Jracforr said:

The scriptures written in the Apocrypha are mostly correct, though some errors are to be found in them. ( D&C 91) 

I understand your concern about relying on other sources of information other than the standard LDS works, but where these documents are found relevant, I have no reservations about using them. The very Book of Mormon in which we trust, was dismissed by Christian skeptics, for the same reason you are reluctant to see value in the Apocrypha , because they did not considered them to be standard literature . However as (2Nephi 29) states , the word of god is given to many nations, other than those we are familiar with, to prove he created all men and he remembers then in their diverse location.
 

2Nephi 29: 7-9

7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?
8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.
9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

That's not the issue at all.

The issue is that you provide NO references, no logic, no statements about how the ideas link, you just say things like "Ancient Chaldeans are the modern French" and expect us to understand what you are saying.

I know this is tough love, but I just want to see clearly what your ideas are so I can evaluate them.   They are interesting- I am a great fan of symbolism and poetic links and mystical visions etc but at least tell us where you got this stuff.

"It was revealed to me in a dream that..." is better than "The French are Chaldeans"

I want to understand it and you are not helping at all.   Nobody understands me either  but eventually I work with someone who seems interested and I at least try to help them communicate and understand each other

If you see yourself as our teacher, I actually have no problem with that- I have learned from mystic guru types before but at least they answer questions

If you are a teacher, then TEACH

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by mfbukowski

[Damien the Leper]

Gabriel is an archangel to those of us in the Catholic and Orthodox (maybe Protestants?) faiths. Is there historical evidence within the 3 Abrahamic faiths that archangels were ever conflated with persons such as Noah and Adam? Or is it just a nineteenth century LDS construct? I mean no disrespect. The closest to humans and angels being same or similar species would be Nephilim and we see what God did to them in the Enochian texts (correct me if I'm wrong). 

[The Nehor]

On 9/28/2020 at 11:35 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Maybe?

Absolutely, definitely, repeatedly, and already.

Islam has done very little against the Body of Christ unless you are arguing that all Christians make up that body. I think you could make a better argument that Missourians are the enemy of the Body of Christ.

[Bernard Gui]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:28 PM, Jracforr said:

I extend my sincere apology to all members on this board who have been Offended, Confused, Befuddled and Bewildered by my Posts on this Board. However these Post are accurate to the best of my Knowledge, and have been arrived at, after an extended period of reflection. I certainly do not expect others to agree to or understand them after viewing them for a few minutes.

Sorry I missed this. Are you saying that your use of “exhaled” instead of “exalted” is accurate and arrived at after an extended period of reflection? I’ve tried to understand this for several weeks now. Please explain. Perhaps I should consult my bishop. 

[nuclearfuels]

On 10/20/2020 at 3:06 AM, The Nehor said:

Islam has done very little against the Body of Christ unless you are arguing that all Christians make up that body. I think you could make a better argument that Missourians are the enemy of the Body of Christ.

Let us then resort to the empirical data to resolve our disagreement

+290 million victims of Islamic terror.

 

120 million Africans, according to Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, page 62, in 1888.

 

80 million Hindus, according to Koenard Elst, in Negationism in India, page 34. also Tarikh-i-Yamini , al-Utbi, Mahmud al-Ghazni's secretary and Ibn Battuta memoirshttp://www.scribd.com/doc/28014130/Moslem-Conquest-of-India-by-Will-Durant

 

60 million Christians, according to David Barrett and Todd Johnson, in World Christian Trends AD 30 to AD 2200, page 230. and by RaphaelMoore in History of Asia Minor 

 

10 million Buddhists. [David B. Barrett, Todd M.Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.

 

And 220,000 Jews, just in one year, 1146, in Morocco, according to H. Z. Hirschberg, A History of the Jews of North Africa, 1974, page 127-28

 

Adding 17 million of Slave trade done and shipped to Islamic countries, Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] Historical survey> Slave-owning societies ". Encyclopædia Britannica.[ http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24156

 

] and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1523100.stm

 

And still goes on to this day

 

11 million muslims have been killed by the hands of muslims themselves since 1948, http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=why-golda-meir-was-right-2011-08-23

 

 

3 million bangladeshis were wiped out by the hands of muslims, Encyclopedia Americana (2003), Bangladesh andhttp://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Bangladesh

 

and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16207201

 

1.5 million Algerians massacred by islamists, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

 

1.5 million Armenians , according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm

 

and http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-warns-of-reprisals-over-french-genocide-bill-6293713.html

 

750,000 Assyrians, according to “Native Christians Massacred”: The Ottoman Genocide of the Assyrians during World War I , Genocide Studies and Prevention, Volume 1, Number 3 / December 2006

 

500,000 to 1.5 Million Killed in Iran-Iraq War acording tohttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4260420.stm

 

1 million Greeks (+3 Million displaced) , according to "Greeks Hatzidimitriou, Constantine G., American Accounts Documenting the Destruction of Smyrna by the Kemalist Turkish Forces: September 1922, New Rochelle, New York: Caratzas, 2005, p. 2. - ALSO: The Genocide of the Ottoman Greeks: Studies on the State-Sponsored Campaign of Extermination of the Christians of Asia Minor (1912-1922) and Its Aftermath: History, Law, Memory. - ALSO: http://www.amazon.com/Genocide-Ottoman-Greeks-Extermination-Christians/dp/0892416157/ref%3dsr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323875017&sr=8-1

 

300,000 Ugandans killed in the 8 year rule of Idi Amin from 1971 according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8372250.stm

 

400,000 Darfurians according to "United humans Rights Council" http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/genocide-in-sudan.htm

 

and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/15/AR2010101503871.html

 

70,0000 Kurds acording to, The Suppression of the Dersim Rebellion in Turkey (1937-38) Page 4

 

20,000 Syrians killed by Al-Assad Senior 1981 in according tohttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/opinion/friedman-like-father-like-son.html

 

10,000 Killed in Iran in 1988 for dissidence according tohttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/7811996/Mir-Hossein-Mousavi-involved-in-massacre-says-report.html

 

For 2010; 9,213 people were killed by the hands of islamists and 16,987 were injured, according to FBI, CIA. and http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

 

For 2011; 9,068 people were killed by the hands of islamists and 16,900 were injured, according to FBI, CIA. and http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

 

Totaling, since September 2001 to September 2012 has had approximately 19,600 terror attacks made by muslims.------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ahab]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:28 PM, Jracforr said:

I extend my sincere apology to all members on this board who have been Offended, Confused, Befuddled and Bewildered by my Posts on this Board. However these Post are accurate to the best of my Knowledge, and have been arrived at, after an extended period of reflection. I certainly do not expect others to agree to or understand them after viewing them for a few minutes.

It is at times like this that ALL CAPS are necessary.  And you are better off using as few words as possible, as you simply say something like:

YOUR IGNORANCE OF WHAT I TOLD YOU IS NOT MY FAULT.  And you can add a few exclamation points if you want to.

On 10/18/2020 at 5:55 PM, mfbukowski said:

I want to understand it and you are not helping at all.   Nobody understands me either  but eventually I work with someone who seems interested and I at least try to help them communicate and understand each other

If you see yourself as our teacher, I actually have no problem with that- I have learned from mystic guru types before but at least they answer questions

If you are a teacher, then TEACH

 

 Did you not go to a university? I was taught by people who did that the best teachers are those who helps others learn how to learn, rather than those who expect others to just believe what they tell them.  And it helps to lead by example.

Until you know something is true any data relevant to that issue is only what someone has said, so until you know how to know if or when something is true just treat whatever anyone says as what that person is saying... their own word(s).

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Ahab

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Let us then resort to the empirical data to resolve our disagreement

+290 million victims of Islamic terror.

 

120 million Africans, according to Woman’s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, page 62, in 1888.

 

80 million Hindus, according to Koenard Elst, in Negationism in India, page 34. also Tarikh-i-Yamini , al-Utbi, Mahmud al-Ghazni's secretary and Ibn Battuta memoirshttp://www.scribd.com/doc/28014130/Moslem-Conquest-of-India-by-Will-Durant

 

60 million Christians, according to David Barrett and Todd Johnson, in World Christian Trends AD 30 to AD 2200, page 230. and by RaphaelMoore in History of Asia Minor 

 

10 million Buddhists. [David B. Barrett, Todd M.Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-1.

 

And 220,000 Jews, just in one year, 1146, in Morocco, according to H. Z. Hirschberg, A History of the Jews of North Africa, 1974, page 127-28

 

Adding 17 million of Slave trade done and shipped to Islamic countries, Thomas Sowell [Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188] Historical survey> Slave-owning societies ". Encyclopædia Britannica.[ http://www.britannica.com/blackhistory/article-24156

 

] and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1523100.stm

 

And still goes on to this day

 

11 million muslims have been killed by the hands of muslims themselves since 1948, http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=why-golda-meir-was-right-2011-08-23

 

 

3 million bangladeshis were wiped out by the hands of muslims, Encyclopedia Americana (2003), Bangladesh andhttp://necrometrics.com/20c1m.htm#Bangladesh

 

and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-16207201

 

1.5 million Algerians massacred by islamists, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algerian_War

 

1.5 million Armenians , according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm

 

and http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/turkey-warns-of-reprisals-over-french-genocide-bill-6293713.html

 

750,000 Assyrians, according to “Native Christians Massacred”: The Ottoman Genocide of the Assyrians during World War I , Genocide Studies and Prevention, Volume 1, Number 3 / December 2006

 

500,000 to 1.5 Million Killed in Iran-Iraq War acording tohttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4260420.stm

 

1 million Greeks (+3 Million displaced) , according to "Greeks Hatzidimitriou, Constantine G., American Accounts Documenting the Destruction of Smyrna by the Kemalist Turkish Forces: September 1922, New Rochelle, New York: Caratzas, 2005, p. 2. - ALSO: The Genocide of the Ottoman Greeks: Studies on the State-Sponsored Campaign of Extermination of the Christians of Asia Minor (1912-1922) and Its Aftermath: History, Law, Memory. - ALSO: http://www.amazon.com/Genocide-Ottoman-Greeks-Extermination-Christians/dp/0892416157/ref%3dsr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1323875017&sr=8-1

 

300,000 Ugandans killed in the 8 year rule of Idi Amin from 1971 according to http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8372250.stm

 

400,000 Darfurians according to "United humans Rights Council" http://www.unitedhumanrights.org/genocide/genocide-in-sudan.htm

 

and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/15/AR2010101503871.html

 

70,0000 Kurds acording to, The Suppression of the Dersim Rebellion in Turkey (1937-38) Page 4

 

20,000 Syrians killed by Al-Assad Senior 1981 in according tohttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/opinion/friedman-like-father-like-son.html

 

10,000 Killed in Iran in 1988 for dissidence according tohttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/7811996/Mir-Hossein-Mousavi-involved-in-massacre-says-report.html

 

For 2010; 9,213 people were killed by the hands of islamists and 16,987 were injured, according to FBI, CIA. and http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

 

For 2011; 9,068 people were killed by the hands of islamists and 16,900 were injured, according to FBI, CIA. and http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/

 

Totaling, since September 2001 to September 2012 has had approximately 19,600 terror attacks made by muslims.------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The body of Christ is Latter-day Saints. Unless you are expanding that definition, try again.

[mfbukowski]

On 9/29/2020 at 2:28 PM, Jracforr said:

I extend my sincere apology to all members on this board who have been Offended, Confused, Befuddled and Bewildered by my Posts on this Board. However these Post are accurate to the best of my Knowledge, and have been arrived at, after an extended period of reflection. I certainly do not expect others to agree to or understand them after viewing them for a few minutes.

Relax already!

This whole discussion seems to be based on a typo- "exhaled" instead of "exalted" which could have been laughed off as Bernard was doing in his first mention of it, instead of turning it into a kerfuffle !    In my opinion, he was carrying on - jokingly- speaking about how an angel could be literally "exhaled" - meaning of course to "breathe out".

Quite frankly I was about to post a reply to Bernard saying something like "I have heard of the soul being the breath of God being breathed into the body, but I didn't know that angels had been exhaled!"

And that would have been a little joke about a little typo - that we all have made and ha ha- no biggie.

Regarding your opinions of what is and what is not doctrine, my suggestion would be to preface your statements of opinion with some kind of softening indicating that they ARE your opinion and are not backed up by church doctrine.  You might say, for example, "In my opinion, after Noah was exalted, his name was changed to 'Gabriel'......" and there would not have been a blink of the eye, except of course from those who thought there was an error in that way of thinking.

All the posts here ARE already "to the best of the knowledge" of the author, and all have been the object of extended periods of reflection of the author.   Just realize, if I may suggest, that they believe their position as much as you believe yours.

Just trying to make peace- please construe this as intended to be constructive.

And welcome to the board! 

 

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, Ahab said:

It is at times like this that ALL CAPS are necessary.  And you are better off using as few words as possible, as you simply say something like:

YOUR IGNORANCE OF WHAT I TOLD YOU IS NOT MY FAULT.  And you can add a few exclamation points if you want to.

 Did you not go to a university? I was taught by people who did that the best teachers are those who helps others learn how to learn, rather than those who expect others to just believe what they tell them.  And it helps to lead by example.

Until you know something is true any data relevant to that issue is only what someone has said, so until you know how to know if or when something is true just treat whatever anyone says as what that person is saying... their own word(s).

 

Hey my buddy, I have done all I can to befriend you despite your insulting tone, now for years, and I am done with it.  All my best for your future journey with your sweetheart !

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Hey my buddy, I have done all I can to befriend you despite your insulting tone, now for years, and I am done with it.  All my best for your future journey with your sweetheart !

Just for the record, you are the one of us who is choosing to stop being my friend.  I will forever be yours.  All my best to you and everybody you know.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Just for the record, you are the one of us who is choosing to stop being my friend.  I will forever be yours.  All my best to you and everybody you know.

We are brothers in the gospel, and I also see you in that context, but I cannot take the time needed to keep communicating at length about serious philosophical misunderstandings. We are on different wavelengths!

It was foolish of me to have brought it up in a personal context like that; I meant to convey that this was not at all personal, at least for me. 

This is precisely the kind of thing I am trying to avoid, but I want to make how I feel about it clear.   I wish you well and did not mean to put this in the context of "friendship" as if we have had some personal contact other than sparring here occasionally,  and for that I apologize. 

It should have been handled by PM if at all.

Category error on my part.!  

[mfbukowski]

On 9/28/2020 at 2:09 AM, Bernard Gui said:

 If you meant exalted, just make the correction without the condescension, please. 

Exhactly!

[Ahab]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

We are brothers in the gospel, and I also see you in that context, but I cannot take the time needed to keep communicating at length about serious philosophical misunderstandings. We are on different wavelengths!

It was foolish of me to have brought it up in a personal context like that; I meant to convey that this was not at all personal, at least for me. 

This is precisely the kind of thing I am trying to avoid, but I want to make how I feel about it clear.   I wish you well and did not mean to put this in the context of "friendship" as if we have had some personal contact other than sparring here occasionally,  and for that I apologize. 

It should have been handled by PM if at all.

Category error on my part.!  

If you can't you can't.  I understand we all have limits on what we can do.  I'll still talk to you and try to understand what you say but if you can't take any time to elaborate further on what you can say I will understand that you can't do it.

[nuclearfuels]

On 11/5/2020 at 2:21 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Islam has done very little against the Body of Christ unless you are arguing that all Christians make up that body.

Islam decided Christians are infidels, as the provided data confirms. 

If you feel Mormons like you and I are not traditional Christians (cuz we dont belive in the Trinity, Bible only, and belive in the Living Christ, etc. etc. ) that's fine by me.