Random Thought on the Flood

[Sanpitch]

31 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

they don't have to be lying if they simply didn't know

Then as I wrote in a post above how did they know that the mountains were covered with water for 15 cubits?  If they didn't know anything why are their writings in the bible, is it all a fiction book of opinions?

[strappinglad]

Mark Twain knew how to find out how deep the water was with a rope and a rock. Mind you, Noah may have had access to a snorkle and 15 cubits isn't much of a dive .The ship came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Noah knew how tall his ship was and where the water line sat. Rodheadlee, help me out here. 

[Sanpitch]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Mark Twain knew how to find out how deep the water was with a rope and a rock. Mind you, Noah may have had access to a snorkle and 15 cubits isn't much of a dive .The ship came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Noah knew how tall his ship was and where the water line sat. Rodheadlee, help me out here. 

But Strappinglad, the big cruiser floated all over the place, how did they know when they were over the top of the mountains.  There were no sign posts indicating where the mountains were.

[strappinglad]

Let's see. You have been floating around for about a year and your ship stops moving. Everywhere you look is water.You assume you are on a high point of land. When the water recedes , you see that you are on the highest mountains within view. You already measured the water's depth when you grounded. You compose your journal after the first sheep dies so that you have something to write on, assuming you didn't bring much writing stuff with you. Because you never get a chance to climb the Himalayas ... 

What I find interesting is that a measurement was given at all. If the story is purely from inspiration , why not just say that the waters prevailed above the high mountains, or if some symbolism was needed ,the symbolic numbers 3 or 7 or even 21 ( 3X7 ) might have been used. But 15 ???

Edited January 1, 2016 by strappinglad

[Sanpitch]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Let's see. You have been floating around for about a year and your ship stops moving. Everywhere you look is water.You assume you are on a high point of land. When the water recedes , you see that you are on the highest mountains within view. You already measured the water's depth when you grounded. You compose your journal after the first sheep dies so that you have something to write on, assuming you didn't bring much writing stuff with you. Because you never get a chance to climb the Himalayas ... 

Works great if your boat draft is over 21 feet which is about what 15 cubits are, and if you happen to drift over the high mountain just as you run aground.

[Avatar4321]

2 hours ago, Sanpitch said:

Then as I wrote in a post above how did they know that the mountains were covered with water for 15 cubits?  If they didn't know anything why are their writings in the bible, is it all a fiction book of opinions?

It doesn't say that so what's your point.

[Sanpitch]

3 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

It doesn't say that so what's your point.

Then what does it say:  King James Genesis 7   19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

 20 Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

New International Version Genesis 7  20  And the waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of  more than twenty feet.

[Sanpitch]

10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said:

It doesn't say that so what's your point.

The New English Bible ---Genesis 7: 19  More and more the waters increased over the earth until they covered all the high mountains everywhere under heaven.  The waters increased and the mountains were covered to a depth of fifteen cubits.

Revised Standard Version-----Genesis 7:20  the waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.

It does say the mountains were covered with 15 cubits or about 20 feet of water.  So what are you getting at.

 

[Sevenbak]

The whole argument by many that the mountains couldn't possibly be covered because they are too high, is ill conceived in my opinion.  They church teaches that the continents were divided literally after the flood, and the high mountains were formed then.  So, if one believes in a world wide flood, and one believes in a literal dividing of the earth which likely started during the flood and culminated during Peleg's time, then the problem goes away.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Sevenbak

[thesometimesaint]

38 minutes ago, Sanpitch said:

The New English Bible ---Genesis 7: 19  More and more the waters increased over the earth until they covered all the high mountains everywhere under heaven.  The waters increased and the mountains were covered to a depth of fifteen cubits.

Revised Standard Version-----Genesis 7:20  the waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep.

It does say the mountains were covered with 15 cubits or about 20 feet of water.  So what are you getting at.

 

That that is a physical impossibility, but that if it were a massive albeit regional flood it works just fine.

[Sanpitch]

9 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

That that is a physical impossibility, but that if it were a massive albeit regional flood it works just fine.

That's a good idea but that is not what the bible says.  It definitely says it covered the whole earth, everything under the heavens.

[thesometimesaint]

Just now, Sanpitch said:

That's a good idea but that is not what the bible says.  It definitely says it covered the whole earth, everything under the heavens.

We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.

[Sevenbak]

3 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.

Fortunately, we don't just have to take the Bible at its word alone.

 

“And he [the Savior at the Second Coming] shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

“And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

“He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

“And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.” (D&C 133:21–24.)

[Sanpitch]

3 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Fortunately, we don't just have to take the Bible at its word alone.

 

“And he [the Savior at the Second Coming] shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

“And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

“He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

“And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.” (D&C 133:21–24.)

That looks to be in the future so not relevant unless I'm missing something. 

[Sevenbak]

Just now, Sanpitch said:

That looks to be in the future so not relevant unless I'm missing something. 

Verse 24 is the key, the continents will be returned to their own place and the earth will be the same as before it was divided.  The cross reference for "divided" points directly to Genesis 10:25 and Peleg.  The church teaches a literal continent division.

[Sanpitch]

3 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Verse 24 is the key, the continents will be returned to their own place and the earth will be the same as before it was divided.  The cross reference for "divided" points directly to Genesis 10:25 and Peleg.  The church teaches a literal continent division.

That gets to complicated for me.  I'll have to bow out.

[thesometimesaint]

7 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Fortunately, we don't just have to take the Bible at its word alone.

 

“And he [the Savior at the Second Coming] shall utter his voice out of Zion, and he shall speak from Jerusalem, and his voice shall be heard among all people;

“And it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder, which shall break down the mountains, and the valleys shall not be found.

“He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

“And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.” (D&C 133:21–24.)

Still presents a problem. Water vapor has weight. That much water vapor in the air will parboil every living thing. Further breaking down all the mountains and filling all valley's won't help. That would put miles of ocean water over our heads. A religio-political reunion works. A physical coming together, not so much.

[Sevenbak]

Not complicated.  It simply says that at the second coming the earth will be returned to its pre-divided state, as existed during the flood, which, according to verse 22, meant that tall mountains and valleys didn't exist.

Edited January 1, 2016 by Sevenbak

[Sevenbak]

4 minutes ago, thesometimesaint said:

Still presents a problem. Water vapor has weight. That much water vapor in the air will parboil every living thing. Further breaking down all the mountains and filling all valley's won't help. That would put miles of ocean water over our heads. A religio-political reunion works. A physical coming together, not so much.

Why put all the water source in the air?  The text says the fountains of the deep broke up.  The dividing of the continents could certainly do that.

[Sanpitch]

4 minutes ago, Sevenbak said:

Not complicated.  It simply says that at the second coming the earth will be returned to its pre-divided state, as existed during the flood, which, according to verse 22, meant that tall mountains and valleys didn't exist.

Does that change anything?  The waters still covered the mountains with water 20 feet deep.  There must have still been some mountains.  I really don't think you'll ever find many earth science people agreeing that the whole landscape changed completely during that time period.

[Sevenbak]

Of course it changes everything.  Tallest mountains were formed by the colliding of continents.  Rapid moving of techtonic plates creates a lot of chaos, both in land mass collisions and volcanically.

If I should be so worried about what earth scientists think than I wouldn't be a Christian or LDS, as most just poo poo most of our beliefs.  

To me that's an arm of flesh thing that I'm not too worried about.

[mnn727]

On 12/29/2015 at 4:12 PM, Sanpitch said:

Maybe, just maybe God lied about it or the writers of the Bible lied about it.  Either there was a Earth Wide Flood covering everything or somebody lied.

Yeah, cause it surely couldn't be that in the days before Satellites and instant news from around the world that a local flood could appear to be worldwide from the writers point of view or that a tale that wasn't written down until ~2000 years after the event couldn't have grown in the telling. Must have been a liar.

We LDS do not believe God wrote the Bible or that he somehow preserves exactly what he wants it to say inside its covers.

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by mnn727

[mnn727]

15 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It's about time I became an apostate.

became?!?!?!

Just kidding Nehor

* * * 
- just because Apostles believe something, does not make it so. People, even Apostles, are men, and men sometimes believe the strangest things (hint, there aren't really people who look like Quakers living on the Moon and the Sun is not really inhabited, and Paul H Dunn really didn't play professional baseball - that doesn't mean they are not good, Godly men trying to teach us how to live a Christ-like life and return to God)

 

 

Edited January 1, 2016 by mnn727

[Sanpitch]

12 minutes ago, mnn727 said:

Yeah, cause it surely couldn't be that in the days before Satellites and instant news from around the world that a local flood could appear to be worldwide from the writers point of view. Must have been a liar.

In other words the bible is not inspired, it's just the opinions of writers of the past.  Then why bother with it?

Ed to add:  As I remember the Noah and the Flood story was written 600? years after the fact by Moses, correct?  Where did he get his information, was it inspired?  Did Noah or someone on the big boat record it?

Edited January 1, 2016 by Sanpitch

[strappinglad]

It is interesting that science and the Bible actually agree on the idea that the earth at one time was one big land mass and that the continents divided . It took a long time for the concept on tectonic plates and subduction etc. and mountain forming to catch on. Now if we could just agree on the time frame. According to science, there were no humans around to witness the events and they took a really long time to happen. Yet, the event was recorded at least in a minimal fashion over 2500 years ago. Not possible of course. It must mean something else.