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Someone Coming to Get You When You Die?


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3 hours ago, Brant Gardner said:

I debated adding details, but decided it was too private for a message board. I had a conversation with a woman who had died and come back to life. She mentioned that it was a friend who came for her (for reasons that were relevant to her circumstances). We spoke a little of the reading I had done on near death experiences. After a while she asked if I knew that someone also accompanies us here. She then told me of the very clear experience she had with a personage who had brought a new child. I cannot help but believe her experience, and it gives me hope.

It is something we would do for our family members in mortality, go with them to new places or pick them up at the airport when they visit us, so it makes sense to me that since we are all the family of God, something like this would be arranged to make the transitions less confusing or traumatic. 

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2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My niece is a Medium and she believes the same, it gives me hope as well. I believe Mediums are gifted just as others are gifted with various things. Interesting to me, is that many LDS balk at such things as Mediums. How can that be, if they think the veil is so thin, don't get it. 

I think it is seen as a problem because most who label themselves as such are having visions, talking to spirits for money. There is incentive to fake it then or be dramatic, etc.  There is also the performance nature of it, forcing the moment so to speak rather than allowing the Spirit to inspire, etc. Again, Latter-day Saint doctrine would be such does not follow the Spirit and therefore would be ineffective and thus if people were claiming they could control spirits in such a way, it would be a fraud. 

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42 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it is seen as a problem because most who label themselves as such are having visions, talking to spirits for money. There is incentive to fake it then or be dramatic, etc.  There is also the performance nature of it, forcing the moment so to speak rather than allowing the Spirit to inspire, etc. Again, Latter-day Saint doctrine would be such does not follow the Spirit and therefore would be ineffective and thus if people were claiming they could control spirits in such a way, it would be a fraud. 

There are many fake Mediums, and I believe there are real ones as well. And many have their time completely gobbled up with people wanting to reach loved ones on the other side, so I look at them getting compensated the same way I see people that play an instrument, or an apostle/prophet of our church for pay who help guide people. My niece doesn't ask questions to get information either. The reviews she has had tells me she's helping others and that she is legit. She waited a long time before she told anyone about this gift for fear people would think she is scamming etc. 

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There are scriptures that warn about mediums etc. One must be careful not to mess with the dead. Let them come to you ,not go seeking them out. King Saul got a bad message when he consulted witches. 

https://www.gotquestions.org/familiar-spirits.html

Mind you, our current Western society is so " sophisticated " that most would laugh at true spiritual experiences. 

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3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Is it not more reasonable to suggest that when people die we simply see people in our minds?  Facing death can't be a fun moment.  It seems like it's quite possible the mind is seeing things we simply don't, as a natural event, common response for many?  That seems like a quite reasonable possibility, no?  

You know, it is interesting how common these hallucination are to dying patients, but what is even more interesting is how common they are with their healthy family members who are not dying.  Hospice work is not just caring for the dying patient, but it is also caring for the grieving family.  I don't know if you know this, but it is VERY common.  

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One study, by the researcher Agneta Grimby at the University of Goteborg, found that over 80 percent of elderly people experience hallucinations associated with their dead partner one month after bereavement, as if their perception had yet to catch up with the knowledge of their beloved’s passing. As a marker of how vivid such visions can seem, almost a third of the people reported that they spoke in response to their experiences. In other words, these weren’t just peripheral illusions: they could evoke the very essence of the deceased.

This is not just common in elderly people.  From my work with grieving families, I heard of visionary experiences from the living just as much as I did from the dying.   Young, healthy people.  My sisters cousin is one of those people.  He went inactive and fairly anti-Mormon several years back.  I don't know if he was excommunicated or had his name removed from the records of the church.   After his grand-father passed, he shared an experience of his grand-father visiting him.  He was baptized quickly after and remains active to this day.   I can't tell you how many times I heard stories of family members being visited by their loved one who passed on.

Doctors struggle with a differential diagnosis.  Is it a problem that needs to be treated?  Typically we treat people who are having hallucinations.  But in these cases, the experience is the medicine.  To treat it as a pathology that needs a cure is just wrong.

You can dismiss it as unreasonable if you want.  I subscribe to this view point.  EE stands for extraordinary experience:

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So, from the viewpoint of the mourner experiencing an EE, the question "Is it real, or is it hallucination?" is not the issue. Just like with the wine glass in the Memorex ad, it makes no difference—it's the same result! Assuming the mourner is not severely agitated or suffering from deep emotional trauma at the time of the event, the real issue is what impact EEs have. For nearly all mourners, they are comforting, authentic, and life-enriching.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-journey-ahead/200808/is-it-real-or-is-it-hallucination

For whatever reason, our bodies are built to see, hear, and speak with dead people.  We are wired to believe and even experience the after-life.  There is nothing unreasonable about that belief.  It is almost unhuman not to. 

The experience of Christ's apostles seeing a dead man alive again, is not that uncommon after all.  How do you explain shared hallucinations though? 

Edited by pogi
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One of the oddities of humanity is that we have a weird hesitancy and even fear of the dead. Speaking objectively dead people are really the least dangerous kind of people so it is quite an oddity. We don't see death as normal.

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14 hours ago, pogi said:

You know, it is interesting how common these hallucination are to dying patients, but what is even more interesting is how common they are with their healthy family members who are not dying.  Hospice work is not just caring for the dying patient, but it is also caring for the grieving family.  I don't know if you know this, but it is VERY common.  

This is not just common in elderly people.  From my work with grieving families, I heard of visionary experiences from the living just as much as I did from the dying.   Young, healthy people.  My sisters cousin is one of those people.  He went inactive and fairly anti-Mormon several years back.  I don't know if he was excommunicated or had his name removed from the records of the church.   After his grand-father passed, he shared an experience of his grand-father visiting him.  He was baptized quickly after and remains active to this day.   I can't tell you how many times I heard stories of family members being visited by their loved one who passed on.

Doctors struggle with a differential diagnosis.  Is it a problem that needs to be treated?  Typically we treat people who are having hallucinations.  But in these cases, the experience is the medicine.  To treat it as a pathology that needs a cure is just wrong.

You can dismiss it as unreasonable if you want.  I subscribe to this view point.  EE stands for extraordinary experience:

For whatever reason, our bodies are built to see, hear, and speak with dead people.  We are wired to believe and even experience the after-life.  There is nothing unreasonable about that belief.  It is almost unhuman not to. 

The experience of Christ's apostles seeing a dead man alive again, is not that uncommon after all.  How do you explain shared hallucinations though? 

They seem to be a product of ingrained training.  People from the dawn of time, it seems, have been trained to think people exist as ghosts after they die.  It seems reasonable then when people are vulnerable at their time of death to see things, all because that just simply happens.  That doesn't mean that which they see is real.  Afterall how many times has a dying person claimed to see someone that other onlookers have not seen?  Why I think it happens every time.  

I don't want to get into the Jesus story here because its simply too mythically inspired.  We have no first hand accounts of seeing Jesus after his resurrection other than possibly Paul.  But his was vision, not physical.  Vision is simply dream.  

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

They seem to be a product of ingrained training. 

Except it happens with life-long atheists too.  I have seen it myself working hospice.  While my wife's cousin was not a life-long atheist, he was a converted atheist.  There are endless accounts.  

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To the surprise of his family members, the lifelong atheist also began hallucinating angels and complaining about the crowded room—even though no one was there.
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/01/how-do-people-communicate-before-death/580303/

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

People from the dawn of time, it seems, have been trained to think people exist as ghosts after they die.   

Chicken or the egg.  Which came first, seeing dead people or the teaching of an after-life?  I think it is reasonable that with how common the occurrence is, even with non-believers, that the experience came first.

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

 It seems reasonable then when people are vulnerable at their time of death to see things, all because that just simply happens. 

Not everyone is afraid of death.  Most of my patients welcomed it.  They were not fearful and vulnerable in the way you pretend. They were resolved - both the believers and non-believers.

It "just simply happens" is not a reasonable explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by pogi
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20 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Is it not more reasonable to suggest that when people die we simply see people in our minds?  Facing death can't be a fun moment.  It seems like it's quite possible the mind is seeing things we simply don't, as a natural event, common response for many?  That seems like a quite reasonable possibility, no?  

Considering the fact that our mind is often just another reference to our spirit, yes I can see how it is reasonable to suggest that when we die we simply see people in our minds/spirits. I don't know what you mean by more reasonable. Our mind/spirit always influences how we see and what we see, whether our mind/spirit is in or out of our mortal body.

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21 hours ago, Duncan said:

I would imagine if someone was killed instantly they wouldn't be time for someone to come and get them.

So what do you think that spirit is doing after it sees it is dead.  The person dies instantly, and then what?  It just stands there, or hovers there. going nowhere else?  Just looks around while staying in the same spot?  No light to direct the way that spirit should go, if it is a good person, or no prison trustees to take that bad person to prison in the spirit world, if that person is a bad person such as a murderer in my example?  

 

21 hours ago, Duncan said:

Mind you I have read accounts of soldiers saying they had some kind of experience where they knew they were going to do and then did, if they wrote about it in a letter, diary, told someone etc. My Great Uncle Stanley was killed instantly in WW1 and he, apparently, came to the farm house to visit his mother. She said she could feel his presence as if he was right there and so when they got the news that he was killed she wasn't surprised by it-it was like he was coming to say goodbye

So he was able to transport himself to some other place, that farm house to visit his Mother.  I wonder if someone came there to get him later , or if he is still there? At least your example shows he was able to transport himself somewhere, but that wouldn't necessarily mean he would know where he should go.  I think there is likely some kind of check-in place, where all dead people are supposed to go after they die, whenever they can manage to get themselves there.  Maybe a separate check-in place for the bad people who should go to spirit prison, if the prison is an actual place.  I've also considered the possibility that spirit prison is more like an imprisonment of the mind, since mind is often just another reference to spirit.  Kept from moving on or advancing further because they don't know how or are not willing to comply with the proper procedures required to be enabled to move on, maybe.

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28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So what do you think that spirit is doing after it sees it is dead.  The person dies instantly, and then what?  It just stands there, or hovers there. going nowhere else?  Just looks around while staying in the same spot?  No light to direct the way that spirit should go, if it is a good person, or no prison trustees to take that bad person to prison in the spirit world, if that person is a bad person such as a murderer in my example?  

 

So he was able to transport himself to some other place, that farm house to visit his Mother.  I wonder if someone came there to get him later , or if he is still there? At least your example shows he was able to transport himself somewhere, but that wouldn't necessarily mean he would know where he should go.  I think there is likely some kind of check-in place, where all dead people are supposed to go after they die, whenever they can manage to get themselves there.  Maybe a separate check-in place for the bad people who should go to spirit prison, if the prison is an actual place.  I've also considered the possibility that spirit prison is more like an imprisonment of the mind, since mind is often just another reference to spirit.  Kept from moving on or advancing further because they don't know how or are not willing to comply with the proper procedures required to be enabled to move on, maybe.

oh the house is long gone, he's probably up in the spirit world playing cribbage or watching Alfred the Great discuss England with Sir Winston Churchill or something! If someone comes for someone who dies , in the next life, we wouldn't know about in this life, we don't live there, we live here. We'll never know if anyone came for him, he died instantly, no time!

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15 minutes ago, Duncan said:

oh the house is long gone, he's probably up in the spirit world playing cribbage or watching Alfred the Great discuss England with Sir Winston Churchill or something! If someone comes for someone who dies , in the next life, we wouldn't know about in this life, we don't live there, we live here. We'll never know if anyone came for him, he died instantly, no time!

I don't see a good reason for you to seem so sure that we would never know that.  You don't know now, apparently, but that doesn't mean you won't know later, maybe even while you are still mortal in this life.  And asking questions to someone who knows is one of the best ways we have to learn what we do not know now.

So think about it, some more.  Question in your mind, maybe even while also praying to God, asking what could have happened to your Great Uncle Stanley after he got to that farm house to visit his Mother?  He was then in the spirit world, since he was then dead and the spirit world is the name we use to refer to the place where people go to when they die, and somehow he supposedly managed to get to that farm where his Mother was living at that farm.  So if sometime later he somehow managed to end up in some particular place where he could play cribbage or talk to some other particular people, how did he manage to get to those particular places in the spirit world?  Did someone come to get him to take him to those particular places, or did he manage to somehow transport himself?  Question it.  Wonder about it.  And maybe sometime soon someone who knows will help you to find the answers.

Edited by Ahab
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3 hours ago, pogi said:

Except it happens with life-long atheists too.  I have seen it myself working hospice.  While my wife's cousin was not a life-long atheist, he was a converted atheist.  There are endless accounts.  

I don't see the point here.  Of course atheists, if you will, are part of the culture.  They too have been steeped in the notion that we are spirits and will continue on after we die.  Atheist is just at term to describe lack of belief in God.  It hardly means they too can't experience the same imagination of seeing their loved ones.  

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Chicken or the egg.  Which came first, seeing dead people or the teaching of an after-life?  I think it is reasonable that with how common the occurrence is, even with non-believers, that the experience came first.

We'd never know that, in our current stations.  Humans have been around for thousands upon thousands of years.  Religion, as it turns out, has been around nearly as long as far as we know.  

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Not everyone is afraid of death.  Most of my patients welcomed it.  They were not fearful and vulnerable in the way you pretend. They were resolved - both the believers and non-believers.

It "just simply happens" is not a reasonable explanation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you say so.  Thanks for your input.  

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1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

I don't see the point here.   Of course atheists, if you will, are part of the culture.  They too have been steeped in the notion that we are spirits and will continue on after we die.

No, they are not part of the after-life culture.  They are contrarians to it.  Living among a culture is not the same as being a part of it.  They don't believe.   Are you suggesting that even though an atheist who vehemently denies the existence of an after-life, can't help but hallucinate about it because of how "ingrained" it is in his culture?  That's your explanation for why this happens...and that seems "reasonable" to you?  "If you say so".

Lets say that I lived my whole life among a culture who believed that an eagle comes to get you when you die, but my personal belief system is that of a Latter-day Saint.  Are you suggesting that I am more likely to hallucinate about eagles coming to get me at the time of death because of my "ingrained training" despite my personal beliefs?   That doesn't seem "reasonable" to me.  But that's just me. 

I wonder if Hindu's who believe in reincarnation still have visions of their deceased loved ones at the time of death, or if family members of the deceased have similar experiences.

 

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43 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, they are not part of the after-life culture.  They are contrarians to it.  Living among a culture is not the same as being a part of it.  They don't believe.   Are you suggesting that even though an atheist who vehemently denies the existence of an after-life, can't help but hallucinate about it because of how "ingrained" it is in his culture?  That's your explanation for why this happens...and that seems "reasonable" to you?  "If you say so".

Lets say that I lived my whole life among a culture who believed that an eagle comes to get you when you die, but my personal belief system is that of a Latter-day Saint.  Are you suggesting that I am more likely to hallucinate about eagles coming to get me at the time of death because of my "ingrained training" despite my personal beliefs?   That doesn't seem "reasonable" to me.  But that's just me. 

I wonder if Hindu's who believe in reincarnation still have visions of their deceased loved ones at the time of death, or if family members of the deceased have similar experiences.

 

Atheists deny the existence of an after-life... or more precisely stated, a continuation of life after death?  Where did you get that idea?  Atheists are known for denying the existence of God, rather than denying the idea of life after death.  Or did I miss a memo?

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9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Atheists deny the existence of an after-life... or more precisely stated, a continuation of life after death?  Where did you get that idea?  Atheists are known for denying the existence of God, rather than denying the idea of life after death.  Or did I miss a memo?

Many (most in my experience) atheists also believe there is no afterlife. Pogi is referring to that subcategory, “atheists who...”

A huge majority in the US don’t believe in the afterlife:

 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.stltoday.com/entertainment/books-and-literature/reviews/the-pull-of-heaven-even-some-atheists-believe-in-afterlife/article_a7fea1b2-2ec3-5e99-b007-e938550c3da2.amp.html

Edited by Calm
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I worked with patients in a hospital for a few years and saw evidence of this happening just before someone died. One old guy near death and completely unresponsive suddenly raised his head, opened his eyes up and  looked towards the end of his bed and got a big smile on his face as if he saw someone he knew then laid his head back down and took his last few breaths.

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16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Atheists deny the existence of an after-life... or more precisely stated, a continuation of life after death?  Where did you get that idea?  Atheists are known for denying the existence of God, rather than denying the idea of life after death.  Or did I miss a memo?

Calm is correct.  I am speaking of atheist/naturalists.

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2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

They too have been steeped in the notion that we are spirits and will continue on after we die. 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I wonder if Hindu's who believe in reincarnation still have visions of their deceased loved ones at the time of death, or if family members of the deceased have similar experiences.

I asked this question after doing some looking for an answer and couldn't find one.  After a little more searching, I found something interesting about Hindu death-bed visions:

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This is an interview-based study of 104 families and their observations of the last weeks and days of a dying family member. Forty families reported "unusual experiences and behaviors" from the dying person in their last period of life. Thirty of these dying persons displayed behavior consistent with deathbed visions-interacting or speaking with deceased relatives, mostly their dead parents...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21375116

Based on your reasoning, a culturally ingrained Hindu who doesn't believe in spirits and ghosts the way that a Christian might, shouldn't be having these culturally based hallucinations.  They believe that they will take on different form or are in different worlds (physical places bound by time and space), yet here these people see them in the same form as they existed before and in the same space/time world.  Hmmm.....   Where is that "ingrained" in their beliefs?

Any cultures that don't believe in any form of after-life we might glean from?
 

Edited by pogi
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3 minutes ago, JamesBYoung said:

The idea of a 'guide' coming for me comforts.

It certainly is better than 'the rest is silence.'

I can see how some people might not like the idea of some person coming to get them, though.  Instead of being free to go wherever they please they would instead have some kind of chaperone.

I've also heard some stories of people being drawn into a light, with a light at the end of some kind of tunnel that they feel themselves being drawn into.  As if it is some kind of transporter system that is beaming them up.  And then when they get there they see somebody.

I think I would rather have it both ways, being left on my own to go wherever I want to go for a while and then someone coming to me later to show me around some more.  Unless maybe I get filled with knowledge of where I can go and how I can get there.

I'd like to go see some people in particular and right now I don't really know where they are, exactly, or how I would be able to get to them.

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

No, they are not part of the after-life culture.  They are contrarians to it.  Living among a culture is not the same as being a part of it.  They don't believe.   Are you suggesting that even though an atheist who vehemently denies the existence of an after-life, can't help but hallucinate about it because of how "ingrained" it is in his culture?  That's your explanation for why this happens...and that seems "reasonable" to you?  "If you say so".

Sure.  It's all around us and in various ways pushed upon us.  There is no question that an atheist growing up and living in this culture asks the questions of living beyond the grave.  There's no question that those important to them remain ingrained in their heads.  

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Lets say that I lived my whole life among a culture who believed that an eagle comes to get you when you die, but my personal belief system is that of a Latter-day Saint.  Are you suggesting that I am more likely to hallucinate about eagles coming to get me at the time of death because of my "ingrained training" despite my personal beliefs?   That doesn't seem "reasonable" to me.  But that's just me. 

I didn't say anything about more likely.  I'm pointing out it's explainable.  It's not like we have a study done to tell is how many on their death beds actually claim to see those who are dead vs those who claim to have some sort of vision vs those who don't report anything.  

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I wonder if Hindu's who believe in reincarnation still have visions of their deceased loved ones at the time of death, or if family members of the deceased have similar experiences.

 

 

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