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Someone Coming to Get You When You Die?


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3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Sure.  It's all around us and in various ways pushed upon us.  There is no question that an atheist growing up and living in this culture asks the questions of living beyond the grave.  There's no question that those important to them remain ingrained in their heads.  

I didn't say anything about more likely.  I'm pointing out it's explainable.  It's not like we have a study done to tell is how many on their death beds actually claim to see those who are dead vs those who claim to have some sort of vision vs those who don't report anything.  

 

I think this is one of those things that if people don't believe it, they would like to.  I don't think anyone really wants to believe that when they die, then there is no more for them.   

I suppose there are probably some exceptions, some people who would really hate it if they found that they were still alive after they had died, but on the whole I'm pretty sure that most people want to believe they will somehow be able to live happily ever after death.

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45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

There is no question that an atheist growing up and living in this culture asks the questions of living beyond the grave. 

So, we hallucinate about things we have historically asked questions about but are resolved to not believe in any way?  Makes sense.

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

There's no question that those important to them remain ingrained in their heads.  

Sure, but that's an entirely different argument.  How do you explain that those atheists who don't believe in an after life have visions of deceased people and angels that they don't know from life?  Are they also "ingrained" in their heads in the same way a loved one is, even though they don't believe in them? 

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I didn't say anything about more likely.  

Neither did I.  But since you bring it up, are you admitting that your explanation is less likely?

45 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm pointing out it's explainable.

You haven't explained anything.  You are just throwing out biased beliefs of what might be.  But somehow your biased beliefs are superior to ours without explanation. 

 

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14 hours ago, pogi said:

So, we hallucinate about things we have historically asked questions about but are resolved to not believe in any way?  Makes sense.

Let's not get carried away. You suggested you knew some atheists who also claimed to have seen loved ones as they pass away or before they do.  That is hardly a conclusive case to suggest "we hallucinate about things we have historically asked questions about but..."  The point is, it's quite reasonable that those who die will see passed loved ones.  Our imaginations simply run that way.  It's an emotionally charged time.  

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Sure, but that's an entirely different argument.  How do you explain that those atheists who don't believe in an after life have visions of deceased people and angels that they don't know from life?  Are they also "ingrained" in their heads in the same way a loved one is, even though they don't believe in them? 

Look.  I"m offering a possibility.  You mention you know some atheists who have died who have seen their loved ones, or claimed to.  Are you thinking that means all atheists do?  Or most?  Or 1%?  We dont' know that.  We don't know how many believers who claim to see loved ones as they pass.  I know plenty of people who have died.  As far as I know they were all believers in some sense.  Not one of them claimed to see other dead people on their way out.  Granted you likely have been at the bedside of more people who have died, but either way we're dealing with anecdotal stories.  There's no reason, as I see it, to take this further than that.  

14 hours ago, pogi said:

Neither did I.  But since you bring it up, are you admitting that your explanation is less likely?

You haven't explained anything.  You are just throwing out biased beliefs of what might be.  But somehow your biased beliefs are superior to ours without explanation. 

 

Superior?   I'm just pointing out the more likely explanation, as I see it.  We don't have any evidence that we continue to live after we die.  We don't have any evidence of spirit.  We simply want to live on and hope our families and loved ones exist.  They may, it's possible.  But without any real evidence, we simply have a more likely explanation for those who die and see the faces of their past loved ones--they see them in vision, or in their mind's and memories.  

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6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Let's not get carried away. You suggested you knew some atheists who also claimed to have seen loved ones as they pass away or before they do.  That is hardly a conclusive case to suggest "we hallucinate about things we have historically asked questions about but..."  

I was being facetious about the underlined part.  I was trying to pointing out how ridiculous the idea is that you proposed in suggesting that because someone historically "asked questions about living beyond the grave" that it is somehow so culturally ingrained and central to their being that at the moment of death they would hallucinate about it.  I was being sarcastic in saying "makes sense".

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

The point is, it's quite reasonable that those who die will see passed loved ones.  Our imaginations simply run that way.  It's an emotionally charged time.  

Again, that is a different point then the one you were making.  The original point that I was addressing is your claim that it is so culturally ingrained that it makes sense that they would hallucinate about it.    

Ok, thinking about dead loved ones makes sense, but seeing them, feeling them, touching them, talking to them, hearing them...?  This is not just the dying who experience this around death?  You still have ignored my question as to why they would see angels and other dead people they don't know and have no emotional tie to?  How are thy emotionally attached to that idea in a way that would cause them to hallucinate about it when it is contrary to their beliefs?

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

 Look.  I"m offering a possibility.  You mention you know some atheists who have died who have seen their loved ones, or claimed to.  

One of them is not dead, nor was he dying.  He is young and quite healthy.  He saw, and spoke with, his dead grandpa.  It changed the trajectory of his entire life. 

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Are you thinking that means all atheists do?  Or most?  Or 1%?  We dont' know that.  We don't know how many believers who claim to see loved ones as they pass.  I know plenty of people who have died.  As far as I know they were all believers in some sense.  Not one of them claimed to see other dead people on their way out. 

Studies have been done.  The majority of believers, and non believers, in the studies which have been done in the US and India, see dead people on their way out.  Dr. Christopher Kerr (who has a great TED talk you should watch about this), specifically mentions that the reason most people don't know or hear about this is because most people don't talk about it.  They keep it private and to themselves out of fear of being judged as being crazy or confused.  He suggests the reason that the medical sciences have so little to say about it is because they dismiss it as confusion.  He suggests that if you don't ask, you wont know of their experiences.  You have to approach them in a non-judgmental way and let them know that these experiences are common and normal and it doesn't mean they are confused.  Only then are people willing to open up.  They are not always just going to freely divulge the information, which explains why you haven't heard about it.   He clearly and systematically distinguishes these experiences from confusion.   He suggested that they are reported "throughout history and across cultures".  He performed a study of thousand of dying patients and quantified and measured their experiences.   He suggest that "these experiences are so frequent that they are simply intrinsic to the process of dying".  We no longer rely simply on "anecdotal stories".  There are studies now.  These anecdotal stories were often dismissed by doubters like yourself until these anecdotes were unanimously reported by reputable hospice workers across cultures.  We no longer have to rely on their anecdotes though.  We have data.  Dr. Kerr is not out to prove paranormal or supernatural experience.  He is giving light to the nearly ubiquitous natural experiences of the dying.  The other side of this is how frequently these visions occur in the living families of the dying.  The after-life seems to be the intrinsic goal (playing off another thread) and experience of humanity.

I would post a link to his talk, but for some reason, whenever I try to copy and past the link, it displays a different talk.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, pogi said:

I was being facetious about the underlined part.  I was trying to pointing out how ridiculous the idea is that you proposed in suggesting that because someone historically "asked questions about living beyond the grave" that it is somehow so culturally ingrained and central to their being that at the moment of death they would hallucinate about it.  I was being sarcastic in saying "makes sense".

Again, that is a different point then the one you were making.  The original point that I was addressing is your claim that it is so culturally ingrained that it makes sense that they would hallucinate about it.    

Ok, thinking about dead loved ones makes sense, but seeing them, feeling them, touching them, talking to them, hearing them...?  This is not just the dying who experience this around death?  You still have ignored my question as to why they would see angels and other dead people they don't know and have no emotional tie to?  How are thy emotionally attached to that idea in a way that would cause them to hallucinate about it when it is contrary to their beliefs?

One of them is not dead, nor was he dying.  He is young and quite healthy.  He saw, and spoke with, his dead grandpa.  It changed the trajectory of his entire life. 

Studies have been done.  The majority of believers, and non believers, in the studies which have been done in the US and India, see dead people on their way out.  Dr. Christopher Kerr (who has a great TED talk you should watch about this), specifically mentions that the reason most people don't know or hear about this is because most people don't talk about it.  They keep it private and to themselves out of fear of being judged as being crazy or confused.  He suggests the reason that the medical sciences have so little to say about it is because they dismiss it as confusion.  He suggests that if you don't ask, you wont know of their experiences.  You have to approach them in a non-judgmental way and let them know that these experiences are common and normal and it doesn't mean they are confused.  Only then are people willing to open up.  They are not always just going to freely divulge the information, which explains why you haven't heard about it.   He clearly and systematically distinguishes these experiences from confusion.   He suggested that they are reported "throughout history and across cultures".  He performed a study of thousand of dying patients and quantified and measured their experiences.   He suggest that "these experiences are so frequent that they are simply intrinsic to the process of dying".  We no longer rely simply on "anecdotal stories".  There are studies now.  These anecdotal stories were often dismissed by doubters like yourself until these anecdotes were unanimously reported by reputable hospice workers across cultures.  We no longer have to rely on their anecdotes though.  We have data.  Dr. Kerr is not out to prove paranormal or supernatural experience.  He is giving light to the nearly ubiquitous natural experiences of the dying.  The other side of this is how frequently these visions occur in the living families of the dying.  The after-life seems to be the intrinsic goal (playing off another thread) and experience of humanity.

I would post a link to his talk, but for some reason, whenever I try to copy and past the link, it displays a different talk.

 

 

I honestly do not see how anything said here about what he has said conflicts with my point.  I already agreed it is quite reasonable think people will vision dead people.  I suppose that should mean we think they really do see them.  I don't know what "ready do see them" might mean.  After-life seems to be the intrinsic goal precisely because they've been told during their lives that it is their goal.  An atheist too has heard such stuff.   He may complain he can't get medical science on board with his claims because his claims are easily accounted for--people dream dreams.  

Edited by stemelbow
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49 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I honestly do not see how anything said here about what he has said conflicts with my point. I already agreed it is quite reasonable think people will vision dead people.

You were questioning the frequency and anecdotal reliability of it all (providing your own anecdotal evidence to the contrary).  I seriously feel like you are trolling me sometimes. I take the time and effort to directly address your remarks and you frequently reply, "I don't see what this has to do with anything".   Do you stand by your comments, or not?  How do you not see how this was a direct reply to your questioning the reliability of the "anecdotal" stories?  

49 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 I suppose that should mean we think they really do see them.  

You can believe whatever you want.  Don't pretend like your beliefs (yes, they are just beliefs) are more reasonable however, or that these experiences have medical explanations.  All of your "points" are just assertions of belief.  That's all I am trying to point out. 

I certainly don't think these people are lying when they say that they really do see them, and I know the difference between a lucid patient and a confused one.  Their experience is therapeutic and healing.  Is that ever true with pathologically confused people?  No. Can a pathological condition ever be said to be therapeutic and healing?  Go ask your doctor and see what he says.  We treat pathological conditions and their symptoms.  In this case however, the vision is the treatment.  Hmmm.... 

49 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

might mean.  After-life seems to be the intrinsic goal precisely because they've been told during their lives that it is their goal.  An atheist too has heard such stuff.  

Do you just assume whatever goal someone tells you to have, even if you don't believe in it?  I don't. 

49 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

He may complain he can't get medical science on board with his claims because his claims are easily accounted for--people dream dreams.  

 Who, Dr. Kerr?  I sometimes wonder if you read anything I write.  Dr. Kerr has no problem getting medical science on board with his claims.  His claims aren't refuted by medical science.  

 

 

 

 

 

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21 minutes ago, pogi said:

You were questioning the frequency and anecdotal reliability of it all (providing your own anecdotal evidence to the contrary).  I seriously feel like you are trolling me sometimes. I take the time and effort to directly address your remarks and you frequently reply, "I don't see what this has to do with anything".   Do you stand by your comments, or not?  How do you not see how this was a direct reply to your questioning the reliability of the "anecdotal" stories?  

You can believe whatever you want.  Don't pretend like your beliefs (yes, they are just beliefs) are more reasonable however, or that these experiences have medical explanations.  All of your "points" are just assertions of belief.  That's all I am trying to point out. 

I certainly don't think these people are lying when they say that they really do see them, and I know the difference between a lucid patient and a confused one.  Their experience is therapeutic and healing.  Is that ever true with pathologically confused people?  No. Can a pathological condition ever be said to be therapeutic and healing?  Go ask your doctor and see what he says.  We treat pathological conditions and their symptoms.  In this case however, the vision is the treatment.  Hmmm.... 

Do you just assume whatever goal someone tells you to have, even if you don't believe in it?  I don't. 

 Who, Dr. Kerr?  I sometimes wonder if you read anything I write.  Dr. Kerr has no problem getting medical science on board with his claims.  His claims aren't refuted by medical science.  

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, you referenced the Ted talk.  The intro says:

 

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Although medically ignored, these near universal experiences often provide comfort and meaning as well as insight into the life led and the death anticipated.

I don't imagine you think his stuff is considered medically viable.  do you?  

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33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I mean, you referenced the Ted talk.  The intro says:

 

I don't imagine you think his stuff is considered medically viable.  do you?  

Did you watch the talk?  I don't think you have.  Of course his study is viable!  Why wouldn't it be?  All the title is suggesting is that it has largely been ignored (not dismissed) historically.  We previously relied entirely on anecdotes.  There was no hard data about these experiences we could rely on.  Now we have real quantifiable and measurable data about them. Lots of real medical conditions are largely ignored. Does that mean that any study about them would not be considered medically viable, because they have historically been ignored?  

The fact that he is presenting on TED should give him at least some credibility don't you think?  They try to avoid the obvious quacks scientists and quack studies that are in no way viable. 

 

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6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Did you watch the talk?  I don't think you have.  Of course his study is viable!  Why wouldn't it be?  All the title is suggesting is that these experiences have not historically been quantified and studied.  We previously relied entirely on anecdotes.  Now we have real data about them.  Medically ignored, does not mean medically dismissed.  Lots of real medical conditions are largely ignored. Does that mean that any study about them would not be considered medically viable, because they have historically been ignored? 

 

I'm not sure what you're looking for.  Is he treating dreams as real life visitations?  I didn't listen.  If he's ignored then it means he's not medically viable...sadly.

\I'm not sure there's any reason to listen.  Not finding it interesting.    

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18 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm not sure what you're looking for.  Is he treating dreams as real life visitations?  I didn't listen.  If he's ignored then it means he's not medically viable...sadly.

\I'm not sure there's any reason to listen.  Not finding it interesting.    

I spent nearly an hour watching your links (on the other thread) in good faith.  You can't invest 15 minutes?  I didn't really see the point or find it interesting or viable either (I was face palming most of the time), but I did it out of respect for the conversation and to do my due diligence in researching your claims.  You don't seem to have the same respect.  I am done wasting my time.  Bye.

Honestly, at this point, don't bother.  It is clear that you don't understand the point I am trying to make.  

No, he is not treating the dreams like visitation.  That isn't the point.

The intro does not suggest that he is ignored, it suggest the subject has historically been ignored.  I shouldn't have to explain this to you. 

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4 minutes ago, pogi said:

I spent nearly an hour watching your links (on the other thread) in good faith.  You can't invest 15 minutes?  I didn't really see the point or find it interesting or viable either (I was face palming most of the time), but I did it out of respect for the conversation and to do my due diligence in researching your claims.  You don't seem to have the same respect.  I am done wasting my time.  Bye.

Honestly, at this point, don't bother.  It is clear that you don't understand the point I am trying to make.  

No, he is not treating the dreams like visitation.  That isn't the point.

I mean no offense.  I figured you'd be interested in the topic we were engaging so I offered info.  I"m not interested in Dr Kerr's attempts.  No offense.  If you were not interested, I certainly did not expect you to read and/or listen.  

In the end, great for Kerr.  If he has demonstrated scientifically that people live on after they die, great.  Hopefully his research will sweep the scientific community at some point.  

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17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

In the end, great for Kerr.  If he has demonstrated scientifically that people live on after they die, great.  Hopefully his research will sweep the scientific community at some point.  

I don't know why you keep thinking that is the point he is making.  I have made it abundantly clear, probably 3 times, that he is not trying to prove the existence of an after-life.

17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 If you were not interested, I certainly did not expect you to read and/or listen.  

 I was interested in the conversation, and you seemed to think that it was important to the conversation.  So, out of respect to you and the conversation, I watched.  How could I continue in the conversation in good faith without trying to understand where you were coming from?  You don't seem to have the same respect or good faith, and that is kind of important to a healthy conversation. 

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12 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't know why you keep thinking that is the point he is making.  I have made it abundantly clear, probably 3 times, that he is not trying to prove the existence of an after-life.

 I was interested in the conversation, and you seemed to think that it was important to the conversation.  So, out of respect to you and the conversation, I watched.  How could I continue in the conversation in good faith without trying to understand where you were coming from?  You don't seem to have the same respect or good faith, and that is kind of important to a healthy conversation.  It is abundantly clear that you don't want to even try to understand me or where I am coming from.  So, why should I invest another second with you? 

Since your protestation that I should have listened, I decided to listen.  Touching stuff.  Still not sure what you'd like me to get from it.  Seems to fit nicely with my point.  If he's not trying to prove the existence of an after-life, then fine by me.  Not sure what he's doing other than saying, people vision and dream of those who have died before and that often brings some sort of enlightenment.  Fine.  

Thanks for sharing.  

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33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Since your protestation that I should have listened, I decided to listen.  Touching stuff.  Still not sure what you'd like me to get from it.  Seems to fit nicely with my point.  If he's not trying to prove the existence of an after-life, then fine by me.  Not sure what he's doing other than saying, people vision and dream of those who have died before and that often brings some sort of enlightenment.  Fine.  

Thanks for sharing.  

It seems pointless to watch the video now.  It was in response to this:

Quote

You mention you know some atheists who have died who have seen their loved ones, or claimed to.  Are you thinking that means all atheists do?  Or most?  Or 1%?  We dont' know that.  We don't know how many believers who claim to see loved ones as they pass.  I know plenty of people who have died.  As far as I know they were all believers in some sense.  Not one of them claimed to see other dead people on their way out.  Granted you likely have been at the bedside of more people who have died, but either way we're dealing with anecdotal stories.  There's no reason, as I see it, to take this further than that.  

The point was that we actually do know how often it happens and how ubiquitous it is across cultures.  I also posted a link to another study from India (you probably didn't even open that one), which directly refuted your idea that these hallucinations are culturally biased (as they don't believe in an after-life in the way they are hallucinating).  Yet, they happen in India as frequently as they happen here.

The other interesting point he made is that these experiences can't be dismissed as "confusion" as the medical community has historically dismissed them.  It is obvious to any observer that these people are perfectly lucid and oriented to time and place, etc.  There is no pathology or etiology to explain the experience.  

The other good point he made is that they are healing experiences.  That seems contradictory to any explanation that they are pathological states.  "Pathological states" do not lead to "healing", that is an oxymoron. 

Is this proof of an after-life?  No.  But I think it leaves room for hope and raises some good questions. Why do they happen to nearly everyone?  Why do they see people they don't know (if you are trying to explain them away as emotionally driven)?  Why do they almost always see dead people and not living people?  I have been present for many of these experiences.  Sometimes the family lives in another state or can't be present. Many have not had contact with any of their children for years.  Why don't these dying people hallucinate about their living children (if your explanation is natural that they hallucinate about the things they are emotionally tied too)?  It is almost 100%  about people who have passed on - brothers, children, parents, still-born nephews, etc.  I can't reasonably explain it.  But the thing I have the hardest time explaining, is the presence I felt in those moments.  

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25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why do they almost always see dead people and not living people? 

 

Another attribute to examine would be how rational is the experience as dreams and hallucinations often include irrational/nonsensical experiences.

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47 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Another attribute to examine would be how rational is the experience as dreams and hallucinations often include irrational/nonsensical experiences.

From my personal experience, they are totally lucid and oriented in every other way.  They are clearly having a conversation with someone though.  That is the only thing that might obviously be considered irrational.  Or they will ask "who are those people over there?"  I have seen some that were clearly episodes of confusion however, usually with dementia patients. 

This article is good:

Quote

 

To skeptics, such descriptions could verge on the paranormal — the type of other-worldly experiences that make for supernatural thrillers in film or literature. Or they might wonder if patients are delirious from pain or medication and thus babbling in confusion.

But that is not what is described in research that was published in 2014, based on interviews with patients at The Center for Hospice & Palliative Care, located in a Buffalo, N.Y., suburb. The patients were interviewed about dreams they had while asleep, visions they had while awake and things they saw or sensed while in the blurry state between sleep and wakefulness that is common during final days and weeks.

Of 63 patients in the analysis, 52 reported a dream or vision — and the dreams typically would be different from those of the general population with their everyday experiences and anxieties.

"As we approach death, dreams increase dramatically in frequency, and the dreams increasing most frequently have to do with the deceased — the loved ones who have passed," said Christopher Kerr, CEO of The Center for Hospice & Palliative Care.

https://www.mcall.com/news/pennsylvania/mc-nws-pa-seeing-dead-people-20180707-story.html

 

They are not confused or nonsensical experiences.  Every hospice nurse will testify that these people are lucid and oriented and not confused.  This video demonstrates that.  You can start at minute 2:38.  The doctor suggests that people can still have hallucinations when dying, but they are "qualitatively and quantitatively different" from these deathbed visions.  Its a fairly short video if you want to watch the whole thing. It has some good hospice stories.

 

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10 minutes ago, pogi said:

From my personal experience, they are totally lucid and oriented in every other way.  They are clearly having a conversation with someone though.  That is the only thing that might obviously be considered irrational.  Or they will ask "who are those people over there?"  I have seen some that were clearly episodes of confusion however, usually with dementia patients. 

This article is good:

They are not confused or nonsensical experiences.  Every hospice nurse will testify that these people are lucid and oriented and not confused.  This video demonstrates that.  You can start at minute 2:38.  The doctor suggests that people can still have hallucinations when dying, but they are "qualitatively and quantitatively different" from these deathbed visions.  Its a fairly short video if you want to watch the whole thing. It has some good hospice stories.

 

My mom had Alzheimer's and the day before she died the nurse said her soul/spirit was already leaving her body. That was sort of confusing to me but makes more sense now. Also, when my FIL passed, or right before, he sent a message to my niece who is a Medium, to my husband. 

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On 9/2/2020 at 3:31 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Better friends than enemies!  😳😜

My wife's family has a cool story.

One grandma had divorced an abusive husband, who proceeded her in death.  She found a good guy and had a long happy 2nd marriage, while making a good effort to heal from the past traumas and deal with the anger.  On her death bed, she was slipping in and out of consciousness.  Her breathing and heart rate were slowing to a crawl, her eyes were closed, then she got an angry look on her face and said "you!".  Her breathing and heart rate increased, she opened her eyes, and rejoined the world of the living for several more days.    Then, once again, her body began shutting down, just like before.  The same angry look crossed her face, then melted away into acceptance, she breathed a peaceful-sounding "okay", then died.

Quite doctrinally sound.  Repentance is a real thing, extended to pretty much all, and we're commanded to forgive all men.   If you just can't see yourself in heaven with an enemy, you won't need to worry about it, you won't be there, because of your inability or unwillingness to forgive.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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35 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

My wife's family has a cool story.

One grandma had divorced an abusive husband, who proceeded her in death.  She found a good guy and had a long happy 2nd marriage, while making a good effort to heal from the past traumas and deal with the anger.  On her death bed, she was slipping in and out of consciousness.  Her breathing and heart rate were slowing to a crawl, her eyes were closed, then she got an angry look on her face and said "you!".  Her breathing and heart rate increased, she opened her eyes, and rejoined the world of the living for several more days.    Then, once again, her body began shutting down, just like before.  The same angry look crossed her face, then melted away into acceptance, she breathed a peaceful-sounding "okay", then died.

Quite doctrinally sound.  Repentance is a real thing, extended to pretty much all, and we're commanded to forgive all men.   If you just can't see yourself in heaven with an enemy, you won't need to worry about it, you won't be there, because of your inability or unwillingness to forgive.

If I admit that I laughed, and you think I wasn't supposed to laugh, will you forgive me? ;)   Reminds me of the couple who got a civil divorce but didn't get their sealing canceled.  Someone asked the ex-wife, "Well, don't you think you ought to get the sealing cancelled, too?"  And she said, "No, it's just this life that I have a problem living with him in!" :D:rofl::D

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3 hours ago, pogi said:

It seems pointless to watch the video now.  It was in response to this:

The point was that we actually do know how often it happens and how ubiquitous it is across cultures.  I also posted a link to another study from India (you probably didn't even open that one), which directly refuted your idea that these hallucinations are culturally biased (as they don't believe in an after-life in the way they are hallucinating).  Yet, they happen in India as frequently as they happen here.

I don't know that it's a statistically valid sample, nor of the survey questions were legitimate.  It could be his extensive set up influenced the outcome.  Don't get me wrong, though, it's interesting.  

3 hours ago, pogi said:

The other interesting point he made is that these experiences can't be dismissed as "confusion" as the medical community has historically dismissed them.  It is obvious to any observer that these people are perfectly lucid and oriented to time and place, etc.  There is no pathology or etiology to explain the experience.  

It may be but that has to be validated.  

3 hours ago, pogi said:

The other good point he made is that they are healing experiences.  That seems contradictory to any explanation that they are pathological states.  "Pathological states" do not lead to "healing", that is an oxymoron. 

I'm not so sure on that, but I'll take it.  

3 hours ago, pogi said:

Is this proof of an after-life?  No.  But I think it leaves room for hope and raises some good questions. Why do they happen to nearly everyone?  Why do they see people they don't know (if you are trying to explain them away as emotionally driven)?  Why do they almost always see dead people and not living people?  I have been present for many of these experiences.  Sometimes the family lives in another state or can't be present. Many have not had contact with any of their children for years.  Why don't these dying people hallucinate about their living children (if your explanation is natural that they hallucinate about the things they are emotionally tied too)?  It is almost 100%  about people who have passed on - brothers, children, parents, still-born nephews, etc.  I can't reasonably explain it.  But the thing I have the hardest time explaining, is the presence I felt in those moments.  

Thank you.

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I am just rereading " The Big Book of Near Death Experiences "  by P Atwater, It does a fair job of covering the various theories as to how/why these happen. It lists various studies which have looked at the phenomenon . It is quite extensive. Worth a read. What I found notable were the similarities between child experiences and adult ones but also the big differences in the  long term effects on both groups.

Mind you, it may be asking too much to spend quite a few hours on the topic in today's " quick satisfaction"  society. 

 

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17 hours ago, Tacenda said:

My mom had Alzheimer's and the day before she died the nurse said her soul/spirit was already leaving her body. That was sort of confusing to me but makes more sense now. Also, when my FIL passed, or right before, he sent a message to my niece who is a Medium, to my husband. 

I didn't stay with my sisters when my mom passed away. They stayed over night in the nursing home with her. Something I will regret for the rest of my life, I should have known she wouldn't make it through the night. According to my sisters my mom made a horrible face right before she died. After watching the video, I wonder why she did. But mind you, she had Alzheimer's so that might explain it. Maybe the Alzheimer's will take some time to go away while in heaven, not sure. But she was horrified at whatever she saw. This makes me sad. I'm glad I didn't see that, but feel bad that I wasn't with her. She definitely needed someone for that. Thank heavens my sisters were there, but it was quite a sad thing to see her face so distorted for my sisters. Alzheimer's disease is so cruel. 

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9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

According to my sisters my mom made a horrible face right before she died.

It might have been being startled rather than horrified as there can be some fear associated with the first or pain rather than horror, my mom's contortions when she struggles to move against the pain can be hard to read.  Not that great pain isn't bad as well, but having experienced horror in a bad drug reaction, I would take a moment of pain over a moment of horror.  That is unfortunate your sisters have that experience, even if only a moment, we want to see our loved ones in peace at last, not still struggling to the very end.

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I hesitated a little bit about sharing this because it's so personal but decided to go ahead. Several years ago after a long and faithful life my mom spent the last couple of days in hospice. Our oldest daughter and her family came to be with her Grandma. After they came out of my mom's room my daughter and I visited a bit. Among other things, she asked me very casually if I happened to know the guy who was standing at the head of grandma's bed. I had been there all day and had visited with everyone who went in and came out, but I never saw who she was describing, and they were the only ones in my mom's room at that time. She said at first she thought it was her cousin but then realized it wasn't him. Later, as she was going through some old family photos she saw a picture of my dad (who had died about 15 years earlier)as a young man and very excitedly told me that's who she had seen standing next to Grandma's bed. I know we don't know much about the process of how we enter or how we exit mortality, but given what we've been taught about the sanctity of life, it was comforting to imagine my dad being there to welcome my mom there.

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1 hour ago, AzMadrileño said:

I hesitated a little bit about sharing this because it's so personal but decided to go ahead. Several years ago after a long and faithful life my mom spent the last couple of days in hospice. Our oldest daughter and her family came to be with her Grandma. After they came out of my mom's room my daughter and I visited a bit. Among other things, she asked me very casually if I happened to know the guy who was standing at the head of grandma's bed. I had been there all day and had visited with everyone who went in and came out, but I never saw who she was describing, and they were the only ones in my mom's room at that time. She said at first she thought it was her cousin but then realized it wasn't him. Later, as she was going through some old family photos she saw a picture of my dad (who had died about 15 years earlier)as a young man and very excitedly told me that's who she had seen standing next to Grandma's bed. I know we don't know much about the process of how we enter or how we exit mortality, but given what we've been taught about the sanctity of life, it was comforting to imagine my dad being there to welcome my mom there.

This is a beautiful experience, thank you for sharing it.

This reminded me immediately of the aptly named "Cokeville Miracle", and some of the things the children said about "angels" that were with them at the time of the explosion.  Some of these experiences were shared in a 2015, LDS Living article.  Ron Hartley, lead investigator for the Lincoln County Sheriff’s Office, had four children who survived the bombing, and he shared some of the things his children and the other children told him after the explosion.

This is the part of the article that reminded me of your experience:

Quote

In the days after the bombing, more astonishing evidence came to light. Investigators discovered that wires to three of the bomb’s five blasting caps had been mysteriously cut, preventing detonation. Furthermore, the explosive powder that should have lit the air on fire had been miraculously hindered from its deadly purpose, thanks to the leaking gasoline. And though the walls were pocked from shrapnel, no one was hit by any of it.

“Everybody kept saying, ‘Isn’t this a miracle?’ But I took it as luck,” says Hartley.

His perspective changed dramatically a couple weeks later, however, when his 6-year-old son confided in a psychologist that he had seen angels on the day of the bombing.

Angels and Ancestors

“I came home with the intent of factually proving to him that he couldn’t have seen angels,” Hartley recalls. “I asked him who he saw, and he said, ‘I don’t know. She didn’t tell me her name, but I think it was Grandma Meister.’ This was exactly what I was looking for. I told him, ‘It wasn’t Grandma Meister because she’s alive and living in Pinedale.’”

But the young boy insisted that his story was true. That’s when Hartley asked his wife to get out the family photo album.

“We put it on the table right in front of him, and I started flipping through the pages. I flipped to one page when suddenly he put his little hand on a photo and just beamed,” Hartley shares.

“When you do interrogations in law enforcement, you watch for body language. You can tell through physical reactions when someone is lying and when they are not,” he continues. “When my son saw that picture, he just brightened up and said, ‘That’s her! That’s my angel!’ And it wasn’t Grandma Meister—it was my Grandma Elliott. How do you argue that? She’d been dead for three or four years.”

Hartley’s son told him there were angels for everyone in the room that day, and just prior to detonation, the angels joined hands around the bomb and went up through the ceiling with the explosion.

“When he said that, it lined up with the physical evidence. That, in addition to the fact that he picked out Grandma Elliott, is evidence I can’t deny,” he says.

Other children also gave accounts of heavenly intervention, and in the months after the bombing, more of them were able to identify ancestors who helped keep them safe on the day of the crisis.

The article continues with more similar stories shared by the children, all of them being helped by deceased ancestors.

Edited by InCognitus
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