Covid II: Medical Info and Implications

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I do think your area is an outlier in terms of Julie Rowe quackery though.  Energy healing etc. is fairly popular, but doesn't represent the majority by any means.  I still feel confident that most would sustain their leaders admonitions. 

My friend lives in the next town over.  Still in davis county but a wealthier ward.  They were not great mask wearers there, even in the worst times.  Their neighborhood did not stop having playdates when things went into lockdown and only one family made their kids were masks out of the house.  

Most members do sustain their leaders, but with masks most of what I saw was done begrudgingly if it was done.  It was done because it was asked, not because the person though masks actually helped anything.  And if they could get away without doing it (like at a RS activity or something) no masks were worn, even if leaders were asking it on Sundays.

People REALLY hate masks.

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

People REALLY hate masks.

Ya, I get that.  I just don't...get it. 

Sometimes people don't believe religion because science says something else.  Sometimes people don't believe science because their religion says something else.  But when both science and religion are saying the exact same thing in harmonious unison...just who are they listening to?  Julie Rowe perhaps?  Politicians?  Radio and news personalities?  They think they are smarter than the consensus among top scientists and medical experts and think their religious leaders are deceived.  Talk about a shaky foundation! 

I feel like banging my head against a wall. 

It is such a small and simple sacrifice.

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[bluebell]

8 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ya, I get that.  I just don't...get it. 

Sometimes people don't believe religion because science says something else.  Sometimes people don't believe science because their religion says something else.  But when both science and religion are saying the exact same thing in harmonious unison...just who are they listening to?  Julie Rowe perhaps?  Politicians?  Radio and news personalities?  They think they are smarter than the consensus among top scientists and medical experts and think their religious leaders are deceived.  Talk about a shaky foundation! 

I feel like banging my head against a wall. 

It is such a small and simple sacrifice.

The elderly are the worst in my ward.  We have three sisters (in their 70s) who refused to wear them.  One was the chorister and sang without it too of course.  And one I had to snooze on facebook because most of her posts were anti-vaccine memes and I couldn't take it anymore.

Likewise, my parents live in the ward I grew up in so I'm friends with a lot of the members.  I had to snooze an old YW president (also now in her 70s) because she was putting up stuff that was almost rapid anti-masks and vaccines.  She's such an amazing woman, but has just lost it on these topics.  I can't really explain it.

 

[The Nehor]

Do not take Ivermectin to prevent or cure Covid.

That is all.

[Danzo]

In fighting the pandemic, There have been three major tactics.

1.  Social distancing.

2. Vaccines

3. Masks

 

I don't think that there is much Controversy on 1 and 2.  There is plenty of scientific evidence to support the efficacy of social distancing, it goes back to the quarantines of the middle ages.  There is ample evidence and testing for the current vaccines, although no one is sure how long the protection lasts.  The thing I am not really sure of is how effective masks are for the following reasons.

1.  Almost everyone I know who got Covid got it wearing a mask.

2. Using a mask to prevent getting a highly infectious disease goes agains the training I received years ago as an EMT.  The protocals in place for dealing with a highly infectious disease were much more than "wear a mask".

3. The mask mandates can be a bit silly. for example, I have to wear a mask when I enter a resturant but 10 seconds later, as I arrive at the table, I take it off, like the virus knows I'm eating and isn't going to infect me then. 

4.  Often people take wearing a mask as an excuse not to social distance.  In october, my teenage daughter went to a halloween party, everone wore masks, her friends were all scared of the virus,  however they hugged each other and spent the evening close together and suprise, suprise, my daughter got a cold a few days later and everyone in our house got a cold a few days after that (might have been covid, but it wasn't bad enough to get a stick shoved up our noses to find out). 

5.  States like california with very strict mask mandates seemed to get the Covid just as bad or worse than those where the mask mandate was less strick

6.  I just got back from mexico where they were extremely strict (spray everyone with disinfectant, take temprature, disinfect the shoes, where masks) but then they pack you like sardines into a very small space and suprise! the virus is still going strong there.

 

I am just not convinced on how effective the mask mandates really are.  I am not a vaccine denier (got my vaccine shortly after it was legal for me to get it). I am not a covid denier, I actually think social distancing is a good idea.  I just havent seen masks making much of a diference.  

One of the other problems with masks is that it makes people mad, and they equate the mask mandate with the vaccine.  Many people I know who are against the vaccine are against it because they think they are the same as the mask mandates.  One study in our state by a marketing firm surveyed the people who weren't vaccinated. Their suggestion was that the most effective way to increase vaccination was to have the government spokesmen (our governer, health director, OSHA, Etc) shut up because they were the ones the anti vaccine people were the most upset with and have the local doctors reach out.  

If this is true, then mask mandates are going to make the pandemic worse by convincing people not to vaccinate. 

They associate government shutdowns and mask mandates with the vaccine and they oppose them for that reason alone. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Danzo

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

2. Using a mask to prevent getting a highly infectious disease goes agains the training I received years ago as an EMT.  The protocals in place for dealing with a highly infectious disease were much more than "wear a mask".

But it certainly included wearing a mask.  Out of all the PPE medical professionals wear around highly infectious diseases, the mask is by far the most important and effective piece of PPE.  We can't all live isolated in negative pressure rooms, so we do the next best thing - wear a mask!  It is not about elimination of risk, but reduction.    

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

3. The mask mandates can be a bit silly. for example, I have to wear a mask when I enter a resturant but 10 seconds later, as I arrive at the table, I take it off, like the virus knows I'm eating and isn't going to infect me then. 

I agree.  There is no perfect solution.  Again, the idea is to reduce risk, not eliminate it.  The recommendation has been to avoid dinning in restaurants.  Get take out. 

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

If this is true, then mask mandates are going to make the pandemic worse by convincing people not to vaccinate. 

They associate government shutdowns and mask mandates with the vaccine and they oppose them for that reason alone. 

I don't believe it.  I think people are smart enough to differentiate between shutdowns and vaccines.  Vaccines are integral in our society and have been for a very long time.  People are only hesitant because it is a new type of vaccine that has not yet been FDA approved - or they were already an anti-vaccer in the first place - or they buy into conspiracy theories about microchips, etc. 

I don't see any correlation between mask mandates and low vaccine rates.  If anything, I see a stronger correlation between no mask mandates (red states) and low vaccine rates.  

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

I am just not convinced on how effective the mask mandates really are.

If you have read all the research and studies that I have posted and are still not convinced, I can't help you.  Just know that it is enough to convince people much smarter and more qualified than you or I.  Not just a few either, but there is a consensus in the medical and scientific field on masks.    Again, both science and your own religion are agreed on this subject, so who are you listening to?

Mask mandates are besides the point anyway.  Mandate or not, the medical field and the church are both asking you to wear a mask.  Must we be commanded (mandated) in all things, before we will act?

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[ksfisher]

13 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think people are smart enough...

You kinda lost your credibility with me with this statement

[bOObOO]

56 minutes ago, Danzo said:

In fighting the pandemic, There have been three major tactics.

1.  Social distancing.

2. Vaccines

3. Masks

There are 4, actually, and I think the most important one.  Wash your hands often, especially before touching your eyes or your nose or something you will put in your mouth... or someone else's eyes or nose or mouth.

People who wear a mask but don't wash their hands often can still become sick or make someone else sick with their germs or whatever virus they might have.

 

[bOObOO]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

People REALLY hate masks.

I'm okay with them as long as I also wear a hat and carry a gun.

[rongo]

5 hours ago, bluebell said:

That hasn't been my experience so far.  But maybe I live in a more conservative area that you do.  We have a lot of homeopathic, homeschooling, energy healing members in my area of Davis Co. 

 

3 hours ago, pogi said:

That surprises me.  I live in a very conservative area of Draper.  Maybe not as much homeopathic/energy healing stuff, but very conservative. 

 

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes it was.  And not just in my ward but the wards around us as well (in our stake and a neighboring stake).  But like I said, my area was SUPER pro-julie rowe when all that went down, to the point where stake presidents had to get involved.  So those are the kind of members I'm talking about.  Good people. A little out there.

These were the same people who were actively upset that Pres. Nelson got the shot and encouraged other members to get it.  If I had to guess I would guess that the majority of members in my area aren't vaccinated.

 

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I do think your area is an outlier in terms of Julie Rowe quackery though.  Energy healing etc. is fairly popular, but doesn't represent the majority by any means.  I still feel confident that most would sustain their leaders admonitions. 

I think it's a grave misreading of the situation and people to think that it's primarily Julia Rowe/AVOW-types who are heavily resistant to masks and vaccines. It's a lot more mainstream than that, with many solid members who don't subscribe to any of that. What kind of a following does Julia Rowe still have, anyway?

Which is why this sizeable and influential contingent is being accommodated in the temples and chapels like they are. It isn't a kook fringe minority. 

[rongo]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree that it likely wont be enforced, but I think the lack of membership wearing masks during a huge surge which is stressing the healthcare system - prompting many families to not attend church because they feel unsafe there with their unvaccinated children -  may very well influence them to double down on their efforts to encourage members to wear masks.  If the surge gets much worse, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that.  That's all I am saying.  I have said nothing of zoom meetings etc. 

When you put it that way, it wouldn't shock me to see a letter or some other form of formal encouragement --- though I think it's more likely for the current status quo to reign. 

[quote]rongo, the CDC recommendation to wear masks again has only been in effect for a few days!  I wouldn't take the church's silence as approval of current practice, nor as an indicator that they will not take further action. [/quote]

Resistance to official Church policy on masks pre-dates this most recent about-face from the CDC by quite a ways. Our ward mostly stopped wearing masks several months ago. Ditto with other wards I've been to. It's not just a recent reaction to the latest from the CDC.

 

[Danzo]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

But it certainly included wearing a mask. 

Not the type of mask mandated in the mask mandates. . . . But I think you already knew that.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I agree.  There is no perfect solution.  Again, the idea is to reduce risk, not eliminate it.  The recommendation has been to avoid dinning in restaurants.  Get take out.

That is the recomendation, but not the mandate.  The reccomendation (which I agree with) is to Socially Distance.  The mandate is to wear a mask the first 15 seconds and the last 15  seconds of the resturant visit.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I don't believe it.  I think people are smart enough to differentiate between shutdowns and vaccines.  Vaccines are integral in our society and have been for a very long time.  People are only hesitant because it is a new type of vaccine that has not yet been FDA approved - or they were already an anti-vaccer in the first place - or they buy into conspiracy theories about microchips, etc. 

People are tribal creatures who often pick their team, and often mindlessly follow that team even when it isn't internally consistent.  Conservatives are for smaller government except for the largest parts of government(social security payments, military, police, immigration enforcement, etc).  Environmentallist are for carbon free sources of energy except for the largest sources of carbon free energy (Nuclear power, hydro power).   The list cound go on and on.  People tend to take their positions by what their teammates are doing rather than thinking about them. 

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2021/07/researchers-urge-gov-kate-brown-to-stop-promoting-vaccines-saying-she-is-the-least-trusted-messenger-for-hesitant-oregonians.html

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Again, both science and your own religion are agreed on this subject, so who are you listening to?

In my area, my religion tells me I don't need to wear a mask.  In Mexico, my religion tells me to disinfect my feet before entering the church, In other areas, I am sure their are other "religous" requirements by the church.  I happen to currently live in an area that is on the border between two coordinating councils and often my friends a few miles away have had different proceedures at church than I do.  I try to obey as much as possible all of the different variations of the restrictions by my religion as much as possible, but don't really see them as religious rites.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Danzo

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, rongo said:

Which is why this sizeable and influential contingent is being accommodated in the temples and chapels like they are. It isn't a kook fringe minority. 

I agree.  The divide seems to be more political than anything.  Which is why the church has asked us to not get caught up in the politics of it all and just wear a mask. 

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, rongo said:

Our ward mostly stopped wearing masks several months ago. Ditto with other wards I've been to.

Exactly, probably right around May 13, right?

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/13/996582891/fully-vaccinated-people-can-stop-wearing-masks-indoors-and-outdoors-cdc-says

Before that announcement my ward was nearly 100%.  After that, nearly 0% (which was not a big deal because we didn't have the delta variant and total cases state wide were in the 200's).   My how things have changed in just a couple of months! 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[bluebell]

41 minutes ago, rongo said:

 

 

 

I think it's a grave misreading of the situation and people to think that it's primarily Julia Rowe/AVOW-types who are heavily resistant to masks and vaccines. It's a lot more mainstream than that, with many solid members who don't subscribe to any of that. What kind of a following does Julia Rowe still have, anyway?

Which is why this sizeable and influential contingent is being accommodated in the temples and chapels like they are. It isn't a kook fringe minority. 

I agree, it's not just the kook fringe minority.  But areas that have a lot of those types do seem to have an abundance of people who refuse to wear masks or get vaccinated, or get into verbal altercations about them, regardless of what the church or science recommends.

[bluebell]

31 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I happen to currently live in an area that is on the border between to coordinating councils and often my friends a few miles away have had different procedures at church than I do.

 

This is so true.  This has been my experience even within wards in the same stake, or stakes in the same county.  

[Danzo]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

Which is why the church has asked us to not get caught up in the politics of it all and just wear a mask. 

Except for where the church says you don't need to wear a mask.  Except for where it says you need to be sprayed with disinfectant before entering a chapel. 

The church is trying to say follow the local guidelines wherever you are.  The revelation is to be good citizens, uphold the law and try and be considerate, not trying to make a new commandment to cover our faces.

As an interesting aside, in Mexico where my wife grew up, the women were expected to cover their faces in public (many still do although the custom seems to be fading).   I just goes to show that nothing is really new, except now the men might have to participate (equallity and all that).

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

Not the type of mask mandated in the mask mandates. . . . But I think you already knew that.

That is the recomendation, but not the mandate.  The reccomendation (which I agree with) is to Socially Distance.  Them mandate is to wear a mask the first 15 seconds and the last 15  seconds of the resturant vist.

People are tribal creatures who often pick their team, and often mindlessly follow that team even when it isn't internally consistent.  Conservatives are for smaller government except for the largest parts of government(social security payments, military, police, immigration enforcement, etc).  Environmentallist are for non carbon sources of energy except for the largest sources of carbon free energy (Nuclear power, hydro power).   The list cound go on and on.  People tend to take their positions by what their teammates are doing rather than thinking about them. 

https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2021/07/researchers-urge-gov-kate-brown-to-stop-promoting-vaccines-saying-she-is-the-least-trusted-messenger-for-hesitant-oregonians.html

In my area, my religion tells me I don't need to wear a mask.  In Mexico, my religion tells me to disinfect my feet before entering the church, In other areas, I am sure their are other "religous" requirements by the church.  I happen to currently live in an area that is on the border between to coordinating councils and often my friends a few miles away have had different proceedures at church than I do.  I try to obey as much as possible all of the different variations of the restrictions by my religion as much as possible, but don't really see them as religious rites.

I agree that people are tribal.  I still don't see any correlation between mask mandates and low vaccine rates.  I just don't see that as a factor.  People who are not vaccinated have other reasons. 

1 hour ago, Danzo said:

In my area, my religion tells me I don't need to wear a mask.

Don't need to wear a mask, and shouldn't wear a mask are 2 different things.  Ask your local leader if the church recommends wearing a mask.   I highly doubt they are discouraging masks anywhere locally.  I am not arguing that the church is mandating masks.  I am arguing that they are strongly encouraging us to wear masks, along with the scientific and medical community.  So my question remains, if you are going against the recommendations of science, the medical community, and your own religion, what foundation are you standing on?  This is not about mandates but about civic responsibility. 

Regardless of what your local leaders are doing or saying, I think our prophets and apostles message trumps your local leaders who may be out of line with the church's official position on masks:

 

Quote

 

• On March 4, church leaders asked members around the world to follow the health recommendations of the World Health Organization and U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. They specifically said members should follow public health agency recommendations for wearing a face mask.

https://www.deseret.com/faith/2020/12/7/22158497/mormon-lds-church-masks-covid-19-coronavirus-christlike-love-pandemic-apostle-renlund

 

In other words, when the CDC recommends that we should be wearing masks again, then we KNOW the church's recommendation.  It is sad to see the majority of members so willfully disregarding the pleas of our leaders.  

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

43 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Except for where the church says you don't need to wear a mask. 

Again, why must we be commanded (mandated) in all things?  Shouldn't our prophets appeals be enough to take heed?  See my last post - they are asking us to follow the CDC guidelines with masks.  That is the official position of the church.

Quote

Loving one’s neighbor as oneself since the arrival of COVID-19 includes wearing a mask, said Elder Dale G. Renlund of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

In other words, if you are not wearing a mask, then you are disobeying the second greatest commandment, according to Elder Renlund.  That is a pretty serious statement.  Will we listen and obey?

 

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[bsjkki]

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/

The link also includes a nice graph.

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

https://www.kff.org/policy-watch/covid-19-vaccine-breakthrough-cases-data-from-the-states/

The link also includes a nice graph.

If I am reading the data right, it looks like these are accumulative figures from January.  That will severely skew the data since the Delta variant wasn't the dominant strain in the US until around mid July.  If we start from that point onward, I think we will start seeing many more cases of breakthrough.   Most of the reporting is from periods when Delta was unlikely, and case rates went through an extremely low point (low possibility for exposure and thus breakthrough).  I think that we will see this data change very rapidly with the Delta variant.  We are already seeing individual case studies of the Delta variant shattering these figures.   Also, duration from vaccination is increasing and immunity may be waning, increasing likelihood of breakthroughs. 

I know that both my MIL and FIL were infected after being fully vaccinated with pfizer.  That doesn't seem reasonable with these numbers.  I think the Delta variant is not fully accounted for in these numbers. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[Rain]

4 hours ago, bluebell said:

I'm out of rep points but glad I'm not the only one.  This is how my parents ward as been in Wyoming as well. My parents were some of the few that wore them, even during the worst of the pandemic.

That bolded part made me laugh.  Sounds like she still thinks masks are useless. 

Oh no.  It's worse than that.  It will make us like Muslim women who are oppressed by the government.  

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

In fighting the pandemic, There have been three major tactics.

1.  Social distancing.

2. Vaccines

3. Masks

 

I don't think that there is much Controversy on 1 and 2.  There is plenty of scientific evidence to support the efficacy of social distancing, it goes back to the quarantines of the middle ages.  There is ample evidence and testing for the current vaccines, although no one is sure how long the protection lasts.  The thing I am not really sure of is how effective masks are for the following reasons.

I think you might be surprised how much controversy there is over 1 and 2.  I have seen lots more over vaccines than I have about masks and I have seen a lot about masks. The missionary momms group had to ban posts on vaccines because it got really bad. But maybe you mean controversy between scientists?  

2 hours ago, Danzo said:

1.  Almost everyone I know who got Covid got it wearing a mask.

2. Using a mask to prevent getting a highly infectious disease goes agains the training I received years ago as an EMT.  The protocals in place for dealing with a highly infectious disease were much more than "wear a mask".

3. The mask mandates can be a bit silly. for example, I have to wear a mask when I enter a resturant but 10 seconds later, as I arrive at the table, I take it off, like the virus knows I'm eating and isn't going to infect me then. 

4.  Often people take wearing a mask as an excuse not to social distance.  In october, my teenage daughter went to a halloween party, everone wore masks, her friends were all scared of the virus,  however they hugged each other and spent the evening close together and suprise, suprise, my daughter got a cold a few days later and everyone in our house got a cold a few days after that (might have been covid, but it wasn't bad enough to get a stick shoved up our noses to find out). 

5.  States like california with very strict mask mandates seemed to get the Covid just as bad or worse than those where the mask mandate was less strick

6.  I just got back from mexico where they were extremely strict (spray everyone with disinfectant, take temprature, disinfect the shoes, where masks) but then they pack you like sardines into a very small space and suprise! the virus is still going strong there.

 

I am just not convinced on how effective the mask mandates really are.  I am not a vaccine denier (got my vaccine shortly after it was legal for me to get it). I am not a covid denier, I actually think social distancing is a good idea.  I just havent seen masks making much of a diference.  

One of the other problems with masks is that it makes people mad, and they equate the mask mandate with the vaccine.  Many people I know who are against the vaccine are against it because they think they are the same as the mask mandates.  One study in our state by a marketing firm surveyed the people who weren't vaccinated. Their suggestion was that the most effective way to increase vaccination was to have the government spokesmen (our governer, health director, OSHA, Etc) shut up because they were the ones the anti vaccine people were the most upset with and have the local doctors reach out.  

If this is true, then mask mandates are going to make the pandemic worse by convincing people not to vaccinate. 

They associate government shutdowns and mask mandates with the vaccine and they oppose them for that reason alone. 

 

[Danzo]

35 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree that people are tribal.  I still don't see any correlation between mask mandates and low vaccine rates.  I just don't see that as a factor.  People who are not vaccinated have other reasons. 

Don't need to wear a mask, and shouldn't wear a mask are 2 different things.  Ask your local leader if the church recommends wearing a mask.   I highly doubt they are discouraging masks anywhere locally.  I am not arguing that the church is mandating masks.  I am arguing that they are strongly encouraging us to wear masks, along with the scientific and medical community.  So my question remains, if you are going against the recommendations of science, the medical community, and your own religion, what foundation are you standing on?  This is not about mandates but about civic responsibility. 

Regardless of what your local leaders are doing or saying, I think our prophets and apostles message trumps your local leaders who may be out of line with the church's official position on masks:

 

In other words, when the CDC recommends that we should be wearing masks again, then we KNOW the church's recommendation.  It is sad to see the majority of members so willfully disregarding the pleas of our leaders.  

Here is he last communication we received for our stake

"Based on recently updated state of [my state] and CDC guidance, beginning June 30, 2021, we will suspend all current COVID protocols, including face coverings and social distancing, while participating in any activity of the [my] stake.

 

We ask that you each be understanding as individuals and families adopt these adjustments in the best manner to fit their current situations.

 

We love and appreciate each of you. We look to the future with excitement as we continue to return to a more normal life. We invite you to continue to strive to become joyful disciples of our Savior Jesus Christ and a missionary minded, temple attending people.

 

If you have any questions, please contact a member of your bishopric."

 

Nothing in there about wearing masks being the church preferance, at least in my area.

 

Other areas of the church have different standards and I respect them when I visit. 

 

 

[Danzo]

40 minutes ago, pogi said:

Regardless of what your local leaders are doing or saying, I think our prophets and apostles message trumps your local leaders who may be out of line with the church's official position on masks:

I really don't think it is your place to call my stake and local leaders to repentance. These things were done openly, and not in the dark.  If there needs to be a change, I am confident that my stake leaders will be open to correction from those who preside over them.