Covid II: Medical Info and Implications

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have never understood being creeped out for entertainment. 

I guess it is akin to enjoying spicy food, which is really the same as self inflicting pain. 

I have never understood why people like the Hallmark Channel.  To each his own, I guess  

[cacheman]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

My heart goes out to you.  I am sorry to hear about your wife.  It is a terribly unfortunate time to be admitted to the ICU pretty much for anywhere right now.  To be honest, I am not sure about visitors in non-Covid units.   I know that they won't be allowed in Covid units for obvious reasons, but I could also understand why visitors might be restricted from non-Covid units as well.  The last thing you want to catch in an ICU in that serious of condition is Covid.  That could be devastating.  I understand the fears and concerns of not being with family in the hospital, but if transfusion or something else major is needed, please don't take your chances at home.  I also don't know about visitors in the ER.  They very well may be allowed if it is just an ER visit.  You can still advocate for her over the phone.  With technology today, you can almost be in the room with her for advocacy purposes.  She can discuss all recommended procedures with you in advance.   Most hospitals actually have professional patient advocates (sometimes called patient navigators) who are nurses, social workers, or chaplains, etc. that you can utilize as well. 

I agree with you on going to the ER for serious issues rather than taking chances at home.  But,  it might be good to keep expectations low regarding visiting.  A few months ago, my wife spent nearly a month in the hospital.  We live a ways from town and don't have phone service here.  I had to call 911 from the car once we got in cell phone range to have an ambulance meet us.  Once my wife was taken away in the ambulance,  I was completely out of the loop.  It took me almost 6 hours to find out she was alive!  A receptionist was only able to tell me she was in the ER and being seen to.  That was the only contact I was able to have for the 11 hours she was there.  Once she was admitted, I was allowed to visit.  I could spend as much time as I wanted as long as I didn't leave the premises more than once a day.  

It was very stressful for my wife to be alone during a very scary time.  But,  the alternative would have been much worse.  I'm sure that different hospitals have different rules.  So,  I would encourage people who need the ER to be prepared for the most stringent rules so they won't be disappointed. 

That being said,  I understand the need right now to enact these types of rules.  And,  I'm grateful and humbled by the dedication of the front line health care workers.  My wife had another surgery last month and the hospital was a somber environment as they had lost one of their ICU nurses to covid the preceding day.  Yet,  they continue to do their work despite the risks. 

[The Nehor]

Why has no one thought of this?!?!?!?!!?

[bsjkki]

No asymptomatic  spread??? https://alachuachronicle.com/university-of-florida-researchers-find-no-asymptomatic-spread/
 

This was also found in a study out of Wuhan....but who trusts them? This is some confirmation of the Wuhan study. 
 

https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4695

“Virus cultures were negative for all asymptomatic positive and repositive cases, indicating no “viable virus” in positive cases detected in this study.”

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by bsjkki

[Peacefully]

10 hours ago, pogi said:

Hi Peacefully,

Thank you for the kind words!  That's a good question.  Unfortunately, as of yet, there isn't really any protection for children beyond masking and distancing.  They have started testing Covid vaccines in younger children, but I am not sure how much further out those results are expected. Based on how children react to the wild virus, I don't anticipate the vaccine being a problem for younger children and should be available to them in the not too distant future.  Fortunately, as Rongo points out, extremely rarely is the virus fatal in children and typically expresses mild symptoms.  The flu is much more dangerous in young children than Covid and we should definitely be more concerned about that and get our kids vaccinated.  While it is not yet indicated for children, it will protect the most vulnerable among us, and hopefully it actually prevents infection - then kids could have some indirect benefit as well. 

When Covid first started, I remember having a hard time convincing people that the symptoms are more mild in children.  A lot of people here were not believing the information coming out of China and argued that it will be more severe in children because their immune systems are not as developed.  I had to remind them that sometimes diseases actually can be more mild in children and the evidence seems to suggest that is what is happening with Covid.   

Well, you are both partly correct.  Yes, the symptoms are more mild in children with Covid (+1 for Rongo).  And yes children have weaker and less developed immune systems (+1 for the others).    Young children and older adults are typically the two most vulnerable groups when it comes to infectious disease.  You named one of the rare instances where a disease is more mild in children than adults - chicken pox.  Hepatitis A is another rare example, and now we can add Covid to the list too.   Measles is actually WAY more deadly in young children than in adults, along with most other infections.  Most measles deaths are from children under 5.  Newborns have basically zero immune system and rely almost entirely on the mothers breast milk for antibodies (which is partly why breast feeding is so much more preferred) which helps some, bust isn't as robust as a full immune response with fully developed phagocytes (the bug eating cells), which doesn't happen until around 6+ years old. 

I have heard the theory about more exposure to other coronaviruses in children leading to higher immunity for Covid, but I don't buy it.  The virus is extremely mild in completely immunonaïve newborns who don't even breastfeed too, so that can't explain it.  At this point it is anybody's guess.   I don't think we fully understand why chickenpox and Hep A are more mild in children either, but there are some different theories floating around.  Adults are more prone to secondary infections like pneumonia with chickenpox, which is why it is more dangerous in adults.  For whatever blessed reason, children are spared - as if 2020 wasn't a big enough nightmare with over 300,000 dead already, could you imagine if that number was doubled with young children counting for half of the total mortality?  We have been spared in many ways. 

Thank you for your response, Pogi. I shared it with my daughter and it made sense to both of us. She was concerned about her one year old not being able to be vaccinated. I think at this point we both feel that the best course of action is to be sure the adults around him most are vaccinated. 

[pogi]

33 minutes ago, Peacefully said:

Thank you for your response, Pogi. I shared it with my daughter and it made sense to both of us. She was concerned about her one year old not being able to be vaccinated. I think at this point we both feel that the best course of action is to be sure the adults around him most are vaccinated. 

Sweet sister looking out for her sibling!  I think that is a wise coarse of action.  You can be confident in knowing that death rates or serious complications in that age range are near zero.

[Rain]

13 hours ago, rongo said:

Here's a question that directly impacts my family:

My wife has been hospitalized with lengthy stays for complications from a rare autoimmune disease (CAPS: catastrophic antiphospholipid syndrome) since 2008. She clots all over the place in her internal organs, and in 2008, they couldn't figure out why she was blacking out and finally opened her up for exploratory surgery in desperation (her liver showed signs of cirrhosis, but she had never had alcohol or hepatitis). She had necrotic (dead) portions of her GI tract from clots, and they removed part of her ileum and colon. She is on high doses of warfarin for life to keep the clotting at bay, but suffers from vitamin B12 deficiency because of "shortgut" (she is missing key portions of her digestive system). Things sometimes go south and she has to have transfusions, but you can't just go in and get them when we know she's in a bad way --- she has to be admitted via the ER and have a week's worth of fruitless tests before doctors do what we already know she needs: transfusions (five, last time) and B12 shots. Last time, she wasn't breathing when I got her to the ER, and we obviously don't want to cut it that close again.

She is in a bad way again, and we are doing everything we can (including her doctor). If we have to take her to the ER, I don't think I can be with her, can I? Arizona is "code red," with reportedly 92% ICU capacity. She would almost rather take her chances at home than risk being admitted and not see any of us indefinitely.

Is that generally correct, that people are basically on their own right now when admitted into a hospital (no visitors or advocates)? This is a big concern for us. 

I'm sorry to hear about your wife.

I don't know how things are now.  Last April I took someone to Banner Baywood ER and had to wait in a special area of the parking lot - only for those with someone in the ER.

I have not been able to go in with her for her eye surgery, colonoscopy etc which were not done in regular hospitals since then either. I waited out in the parking lots for those as well.

If you have to take her make sure to write down your phone number for her.  If there is any problem with her phone or her memory that will help her contact you. 

[Calm]

Vitamin D pushed in open letter by scientists, etc.

https://vitamindforall.org/letter.html

I find this likely more reliable because no one is likely to be making masses of money off of pushing Vitamin D.  Details of studies seem to me to be more comprehensive.  Scientists appear to be in a variety of related fields and from a wide range of what appears to be reputable organizations. 
 

 And really interesting to me is at the end, by the names of the signees, they are posting what amount they recommend and what amount they personally take. I am already taking a D supplement as I likely need it because I just don’t get out in sunlight much these days and since I burn easily and skin cancer runs rampant in the family, have always stayed covered up.  I may increase the dose at least for the rest of the winter. 
 

I will be interested to see reactions from medical community. I haven’t seen any debate over the research showing vitamin D helps, but haven’t gone looking either.  If it does help even a little, this seems like a real no brainer.  Overdosing on vitamin D isn’t a big risk at levels recommended or even higher for most (though upper level of experts is 10,000 IU daily). Benefits of Vitamin D are wide ranging outside of Covid with deficiencies being widespread.

While known, Vitamin D toxicity is pretty rare. In one study of 20,000, only 37 showed too high levels and only one very high blood levels. One woman too high was taking way over 100,000 IU a day (the paper looks like they are recommending around 5,000 to 9,000 though I just looked at the top of the list).

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vitamin-d-side-effects#Deficiency-and-toxicity

[provoman]

Masks not enough to stop COVID-19's spread without distancing, study finds

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201222132057.htm

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, provoman said:

Masks not enough to stop COVID-19's spread without distancing, study finds

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/12/201222132057.htm

Whenever someone asks me why they need to quarantine even if they were both wearing masks.  This quote from the study is exactly what I tell them almost word for word:

"A mask definitely helps, but if the people are very close to each other, there is still a chance of spreading or contracting the virus,"

This study validates everything I have been saying.  Thanks for sharing.

[provoman]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

Whenever someone asks me why they need to quarantine even if they were both wearing masks.  This quote from the study is exactly what I tell them almost word for word:

"A mask definitely helps, but if the people are very close to each other, there is still a chance of spreading or contracting the virus,"

This study validates everything I have been saying.  Thanks for sharing.

The study was mentioned on the news this morning. It got about 30seconds.

It is an important message to get out.

Edited December 23, 2020 by provoman

[bsjkki]

No wonder the country has trust issues. 
 

 

[Bob Crockett]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

No wonder the country has trust issues. 
 

 

That's right.  Put your trust in public health officials.  

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

No wonder the country has trust issues. 
 

 

The reason people have trust issues is mostly because of Trump who downplayed the virus, placing the leader of the nation at odds with the top infectious disease experts.  He had major media sources backing him and countering information given by health officials.  That didn't help!  He made fun of people wearing masks, he mocked and countered CDC recommendations, he publicly ridiculed and placed blame on public health officials for the confusion in order take blame and accountability off of himself.  The endless conspiracy theories and lies from political media sources backing up their president has made a dent in trust for sure.   People like you who seem to spend every last free minute they have scouring the web to find any shred of information that might cause doubt doesn't help either.  That's mostly what you post.  It becomes impossible for any individual to fully research ALL the information you post to counter it, and so when it is not countered, people think it must be true.  It is a 'throw enough crap at them, and eventually some of it will stick' tactic.  To what end?  I am genuinely curious, what is your source for most of the stuff you post?  It all tends to be slanted one way and I highly doubt that you are finding this stuff all on your own. 

From the article:

Quote

“We need to have some humility here,” he added. “We really don’t know what the real number is. I think the real range is somewhere between 70 to 90 percent. But, I’m not going to say 90 percent.”

Quote

“You tell me what numbers to put in my equations, and I’ll give you the answer,” said Marc Lipsitch, an epidemiologist at Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health. “But you can’t tell me the numbers, because nobody knows them.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/health/herd-immunity-covid-coronavirus.html

Compare that to Trump who DID actually know the risk and downplayed it. 

Politics is largely responsible for the lack of trust, so I don’t know how to comment about that without making this political. If you were to compare trust in public health officials from the left and right that would make my point obvious.

Edited December 25, 2020 by pogi

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

No wonder the country has trust issues. 
 

 

I was reading 85-90% before immunity back in April.

I take what he said as code for “I won’t get fired for saying this now.”

53 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

That's right.  Put your trust in public health officials.  

You should.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

The reason people have trust issues is mostly because of Trump who downplayed the virus, placing the leader of the nation at odds with the top infectious disease experts.  He had major media sources backing him and countering information given by health officials.  That didn't help!  He made fun of people wearing masks, he mocked and countered CDC recommendations, he publicly ridiculed and placed blame on public health officials for the confusion in order take blame and accountability off of himself.  The endless conspiracy theories and lies from political media sources backing up their president has made a dent in trust for sure.   People like you who seem to spend every last free minute they have scouring the web to find any shred of information that might cause doubt doesn't help either.  That's mostly what you post.   Most of it is totally bunk, but it becomes impossible for any individual to fully research ALL the information you post to counter it, and so when it is not countered, people think it must be true.  It is a 'throw enough crap at them, and eventually some of it will stick' tactic.  To what end?  I am genuinely curious, what is your source for most of the stuff you post?  It all tends to be slanted one way and I highly doubt that you are finding this stuff all on your own. 

From the article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/health/herd-immunity-covid-coronavirus.html

Compare that to Trump who DID actually know the risk and downplayed it. 

 

He said it better.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

That's right.  Put your trust in public health officials.  

Do you have any idea what public health in America would look like without them???  A little credit where credit is due, please. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6019a5.htm

 

[Bob Crockett]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you have any idea what public health in America would look like without them???  A little credit where credit is due, please. 

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6019a5.htm

 

Public health workers are a cancer on the economy.  

 

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Public health workers are a cancer on the economy.  

 

I know that you know that I am a public health worker.  That just makes your comment all that more disgusting and personal to equate me with cancer on anything.  If you had ANY idea what this year has been like for me, and what I have sacrificed for my community...to equate me with "cancer" is...I don't have words. 

You have it all backwards though.  Public health workers will save the economy, and the economy would have been MUCH MUCH stronger today if people would have listened to them from the get go.  Never mind the relative state of public health in America due to public health workers, and how that has helped our economy over the last 100 years. 

Public health saves lives...and the economy.

We are the ones who put our lives at risk to test sick people for Covid, in order to protect business from being overwhelmed with sickness and death...allowing them to stay open through focused isolation efforts.  We are the ones calling business to educate them on most effective ways to keep their workers healthy and working.  We make advancements in vaccine research and development.  We are the ones who study the efficacy of vaccines and assure their public safety.  We are the ones who will be administering the vaccines that will save our economy.  We will save millions of lives and countless jobs from being lost when this is all over.  Your comment, and others like it, will be seen in future generations as an American disgrace.   You are so shortsighted!

Edited December 25, 2020 by pogi

[Harry T. Clark]

30 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

Public health workers are a cancer on the economy.  

 

I don't see how merely being a public employee/health care worker makes one less than.  If society gets together and says it would make sense to have public works, including health care workers, what is so evil about that?  Too many times, this attitude is used to harm the public economically.  Selling off public parking rights always means that parking fees get raised, and that is why billionaires want to have local governments do so.  Holding these assets in the hands of the public will guaranty that prices won't keep rising or the public will complain.  It is hard to complain when a monopolist wants to squeeze the public to the breaking point because parking is necessary.  Likewise, having public health care workers, not so enamored with a profit motive and motivated by wanting to help leads to lower costs.  They provide their necessary services without demanding money because they are already paid by all of us.

[gurn]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

Compare that to Trump who DID actually know the risk and downplayed it. 

USA Today Feb 17 2020 Top disease official: Risk of coronavirus in USA is 'minuscule'; skip mask and wash hands.

Fauci doesn't want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is "just minuscule." But he does want them to take precautions against the "influenza outbreak, which is having its second wave."

"We have more kids dying of flu this year at this time than in the last decade or more," he said. "At the same time people are worrying about going to a Chinese restaurant. The threat is (we have) a pretty bad influenza season, particularly dangerous for our children."

 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/

Maybe Trump shouldn't have listened to Dr. Fauci.

[pogi]

20 minutes ago, gurn said:

USA Today Feb 17 2020 Top disease official: Risk of coronavirus in USA is 'minuscule'; skip mask and wash hands.

Fauci doesn't want people to worry about coronavirus, the danger of which is "just minuscule." But he does want them to take precautions against the "influenza outbreak, which is having its second wave."

"We have more kids dying of flu this year at this time than in the last decade or more," he said. "At the same time people are worrying about going to a Chinese restaurant. The threat is (we have) a pretty bad influenza season, particularly dangerous for our children."

 https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2020/02/17/nih-disease-official-anthony-fauci-risk-of-coronavirus-in-u-s-is-minuscule-skip-mask-and-wash-hands/4787209002/

Maybe Trump shouldn't have listened to Dr. Fauci.

On Feb 17?  Seriously?  There were 15 cases in the entire US...15!

What they said at the time was appropriate.  When in history have we made country wide mask mandates or even recommendations over a handful of cases?  Why in the hell would it make sense to not eat at a Chinese restaurant.  

Seriously, you guys need to stop with this nonsense.  It is a disservice to our communities and nation.

Edited December 25, 2020 by pogi

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I take what he said as code for “I won’t get fired for saying this now.”

Did you read the NYT’s article? This is obviously not correct.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

 People like you who seem to spend every last free minute they have scouring the web to find any shred of information that might cause doubt doesn't help either.  That's mostly what you post.   Most of it is totally bunk, but it becomes impossible for any individual to fully research ALL the information you post to counter it, and so when it is not countered, people think it must be true.

I mostly post studies and articles. You seem to only like ones you agree with on a personal level. 

This is from Maggie Haberman from the New York Times. Did you read the whole article?

Who is basing his statements on polls?

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Did you read the NYT’s article? This is obviously not correct.

I did read it. I disagree. Why are people so hesitant to take vaccines? What led to the recent spike in skepticism?