Covid II: Medical Info and Implications

[Tacenda]

I have friends on FB posting the below and love it when a comment will say "yes", and say, "several people and some close to dying". I can't believe the stupid question like this being posted by people as if they think most of us don't know someone personally. When many even know someone who's died from it. But don't tell people like these posting the dumb question because they'll say they don't believe it, and it must be something else that killed them! 

This is a Yes or No answer. Do you directly / personally know anyone that has had the Covid 19 Virus

Question by somebody on Facebook

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

When many even know someone who's died from it.

I posted above about my American friend's brother, who had been in hospital for about four weeks. He passed today.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I posted above about my American friend's brother, who had been in hospital for about four weeks. He passed today.

Sorry for his loss.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I posted above about my American friend's brother, who had been in hospital for about four weeks. He passed today.

I am so grateful my brother had not only the vaccine, but the cocktail available to him. Maybe he would never had gotten that much worse, but he was looking like he was having a hard time shaking it. No vaccine…my guess is hospitalization at the least. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry for his loss.

Thanks. To be honest, it makes me feel weird. I'm genuinely and deeply sorry for their loss. And at the same time, I'm disappointed and a little bit angry that they chose to let this tragedy happen to their family. I don't like feeling this way.

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Thanks. To be honest, it makes me feel weird. I'm genuinely and deeply sorry for their loss. And at the same time, I'm disappointed and a little bit angry that they chose to let this tragedy happen to their family. I don't like feeling this way.

I understand, of few of my children, friends, and nephews aren't taking covid seriously at all. 

[Calm]

Pogi, I remember a post from you that discussed what “full” implied at hospitals as some were saying they knew of hospitals claimed to be almost at capacity with lots of empty beds and staff without much to do. But it might have been an article I read as I did a lot of research on that. 
 

Unfortunately the search function has not been helpful. Can you think of a useful source of explanation so you don’t have to repeat yourself, if you were the one explaining the issue (came across you and others discussing problems of finding nursing staff to cover ICU beds due to burnout and loss of staff due to illness and quality of care going down even if a bed is available).

[Rain]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Pediatric units are full too. Some covid but a lot of RSV. It’s supposed to be a terrible year for RSV and if Oklahoma is a precursor to what we might face, it is not looking good.

Such an odd time of year for RSV. My boys both had it.

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, Rain said:

Such an odd time of year for RSV. My boys both had it.

Maybe because kids weren’t playing together and now they are? Where past summers, they would be immune due to being exposed already, they weren’t this summer.

 Also even if Covid were not as affected by hand washing, masking in kids, and such, other diseases could be.  In fact, if something was spread more by touch contact vs aerosols, playing outside might not be as useful as it is for Covid. 
 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/covid-19-is-receding-this-summer-but-now-cases-of-rsv-are-rising#Rise-in-RSV-not-surprising

[Rain]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe because kids weren’t playing together and now they are? Where past summers, they would be immune due to being exposed already, they weren’t this summer.

 Also even if Covid were not as affected by hand washing, masking in kids, and such, other diseases could be.  In fact, if something was spread more by touch contact vs aerosols, playing outside might not be as useful as it is for Covid. 
 

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/covid-19-is-receding-this-summer-but-now-cases-of-rsv-are-rising#Rise-in-RSV-not-surprising

Could be . 

RSV wouldn't typically be a problem for children playing together.  It is, or was, primarily a baby problem - at least it was 20 years ago.  For those older it is more like a cold.

But maybe things are different with that too as well.  Both of my boys were around 6-8 months when they got it and both were hospitalized.

My oldest got it a rare second time when he was 3 and was hospitalized then too.  He is the only older child and the only 2nd time child that I have known to have it. 

It will be interesting to see how this late season works. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Rain

[rongo]

On 7/31/2021 at 8:34 PM, pogi said:

My suspicion is that the lax attitude of masks in Utah wards/temples will change shortly now that the CDC recommends masks for all due to the delta variant.  It was almost exactly 1 year ago that the Area Presidency asked members to wear face masks.  The church is pretty careful to follow CDC guidelines for the most part.  We have a more contagious and deadly variant.  We have children who can't be vaccinated.  We have vaccinated people transmitting the virus.  We have around half the population who is eligible for vaccine who is not vaccinated fully.  We have hospitals filling up again.  I won't be surprised one bit if we are asked to wear masks again.  It is sad that we have to be asked quite honestly.  We know how the church feels about masks and our civic duty in public health.  The church has been very careful to follow CDC guidelines and recommendations with masks and vaccines.  I just wish the rest of us would learn to follow their cue instead of being slow to act with a seeming need to be commanded in all things before doing the responsible thing. 

Time will tell, but I think the experience of the last year and a half factors into any yo-yoing as it relates to "on again, off again" mask mandates, closures, lockdowns, etc. for schools, businesses, and the Church (and other churches). Very few entities are simply following CDC guidelines at face value without considering other factors or adapting the guidelines to fit perceived multi-faceted realities. The CDC has taken credibility hits that lead to trust issues --- and, with the experience of the last year and a half, I don't think anything is as simple as "The CDC recommends this, so this it will be."

We'll see whose read on the situation is closest to what happens, but I don't think that direction from Area Presidencies re: masks in churches and temples will be changed to require them (insist that they are enforced). I think the Brethren and the hierarchy down to the local levels knows that there is a real risk of lasting discontent and apathy if there is any reverting back to the masking, "mitigation protocols," or Zoom church of the past year and a half. 

18 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think we will be asked to wear one again in Utah.  I doubt they would make it mandatory except in very liberal counties.  I don't think the church in Utah will imply it's mandatory again either, mostly because most people wouldn't do it this time.  They don't see a reason too anymore. 

In anti-mask people's minds, mask mandates haven't produced a positive result, and those who did wear one but despised it and thought it was useless, will be even more convinced that they were right if requests to wear masks comes back.

But, that's exactly the status quo that already "reigns," right? Unvaccinated people are already "asked" to wear masks at church and in the temple. Most wards only have a couple of people still wearing them, usually vaccinated people wearing them as an outer sign that they care. Almost everyone's experience tracks with this. 

17 hours ago, pogi said:

a) Why do you think most people wouldn't do it this time?   I think most Utahns are pretty good at following their local and area leaders. 

b) Are you talking about church leaders or members? 

c) The church doesn't seem to be concerned about what anti-maskers think.  It is beyond clear where the church stands with masks.  The question remains, why then aren't members wearing them when the CDC recommends them, clearly demonstrating risk even with vaccinated individuals, and the church has "continuously" endorsed and recommended them?  I don't think that most members are "anti-maskers", so it is a little confusing to me as to why they have to wait to be commanded in all things.   

a and b) Look around at most wards (including yours, pogi). Both members' actions, and leaders' leadership (active and passive) are on display. 

c) I would say that the Church's "don't ask, don't tell" approach very much indicates that it is concerned about what the anti-maskers think. 

I think the approach is to try to make everyone happy, not unlike with the gospel topics essay on the priesthood ban (disavowal, but room left to continue believing it was God's will). Officially, masks required, but not enforced or even asked about, in practice (and this is known to them. It has to be. Their action/inaction reveals what they want to have happen).

13 hours ago, bluebell said:

So I don't think it's true to say that the church doesn't seem to be concerned what anti-maskers think.  

I agree.

12 hours ago, pogi said:

My point is that the church is very pro mask from the highest levels of leadership.  They always have been.  I have no doubt that every one of the many statements, letters, and interfaith appeals to encourage mask wearing was a direct response to the influence of anti maskers in the church.  They said the following being fully aware that much of the church membership are anti-maskers:

Despite the reluctance of members to wear masks and get vaccinated, the general church leadership has been unwavering in its message and stance.   That is why I suggest that the church (not local leaders) don't seem to be concerned what anti-maskers think - they will always be pro-mask and pro-public health in promoting our roles and civic responsibilities, even to the point of linking it with the greatest commandment to love our neighbor.  Anti-mask opinions haven't dissuaded them in the past to ask members to wear masks, so I would not be surprised one bit to see another letter asking members to wear masks.  I also wouldn't be surprised to see most of the church membership to put their masks back on, just like before. 

The church has never rescinded the letter or recommendation, or stance on masks during the pandemic.  People stopped wearing masks only because the CDC suggested it is not recommended anymore.  Now that the CDC is recommending them again based upon further evidence, it seems to me that the area presidency recommendation should be in full effect still. 

The "highest levels of leadership" are very much pro-mask in policy, but very much laissez faire in practice. Look around at most local wards, stakes, and temples. 

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Pogi, I remember a post from you that discussed what “full” implied at hospitals as some were saying they knew of hospitals claimed to be almost at capacity with lots of empty beds and staff without much to do. But it might have been an article I read as I did a lot of research on that. 
 

Unfortunately the search function has not been helpful. Can you think of a useful source of explanation so you don’t have to repeat yourself, if you were the one explaining the issue (came across you and others discussing problems of finding nursing staff to cover ICU beds due to burnout and loss of staff due to illness and quality of care going down even if a bed is available).

This is the article I referenced in the past.  It’s a really good explanation:

https://intermountainhealthcare.org/blogs/topics/covid-19/2020/11/covid-19-what-it-means-for-a-hospital-icu-to-be-at-capacity/

[bsjkki]

Explaining the odd summer RSV surge. 
https://time.com/6082836/rsv-spike-summer-2021/

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by bsjkki

[CA Steve]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand, of few of my children, friends, and nephews aren't taking covid seriously at all. 

My son's best friend (30ish) died two days ago in a Georgia hospital. Strongly anti-vac until about two days before his death when he was tweeting how badly he wished he had got one. The guy's wife is in ICU and looks like she won't make it and their 5 yr old son is also hospitalized. My son's wife is an ICU nurse and can't convince her 24 yr old 4 month pregnant sister to get vaaccinated even after telling her about their best friend and all the other people my DIL has witness die alone in her hospital. Her sister says "I don't want to be part of a govenrment experiment." to which my DIL replies. "You already are. You're in the control group.".

The numbers between the vaccinated and unvaccinated are staggering. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by CA Steve

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, CA Steve said:

My son's best friend (30ish) died two days ago in Georga hospital. Strongly anti-vac until about two days before his death when he was tweeting how badly he wished he had got one. The guy's wife is in ICU and looks like she won't make it and thier 5 yr old son is also hospitalized. My son's wife is an ICU nurse and can't convince her 24 yr old 4 month pregnant sister to get vaaccinated even after telling her about thier best friend and all the other people my DIL has witness die alone in her hospital. Her sister says "I don't want to be part of a govenrment experiment." to which my DIL replies. "You already are. You're in the control group.".

The numbers between the vaccinated and unvaccinated are staggering. 

I'm going to share this with my daughter, thanks for giving me courage!! She thinks it will hinder her from getting pregnant. She believes every nutty thing going around on top of that. Thanks again! I'm so sorry for the loss in your son's life that was probably preventable. And looks dire for his best friend's wife and their son as well. That is so scary. This isn't something to mess with. And in my bold, so telling.

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, pogi said:

I was responding to this:

 

”I don't think the church in Utah will imply it's mandatory again either, mostly because most people wouldn't do it this time. “
 

It seems we were talking about the original area presidency request, not mandates.  I simply disagree that they wouldn’t do it for that reason if it gets bad enough, nor do I agree that most members would ignore the request.  They have profound influence and sway.

That hasn't been my experience so far.  But maybe I live in a more conservative area that you do.  We have a lot of homeopathic, homeschooling, energy healing members in my area of Davis Co. 

[Rain]

2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Explaining the odd summer RSV surge. 
https://time.com/6082836/rsv-spike-summer-2021/

 

 

Makes sense. Thanks

[Rain]

1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

My son's best friend (30ish) died two days ago in Georgia hospital. Strongly anti-vac until about two days before his death when he was tweeting how badly he wished he had got one. The guy's wife is in ICU and looks like she won't make it and thier 5 yr old son is also hospitalized. My son's wife is an ICU nurse and can't convince her 24 yr old 4 month pregnant sister to get vaaccinated even after telling her about thier best friend and all the other people my DIL has witness die alone in her hospital. Her sister says "I don't want to be part of a govenrment experiment." to which my DIL replies. "You already are. You're in the control group.".

The numbers between the vaccinated and unvaccinated are staggering. 

How brutal for all of them.  

[Rain]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

That hasn't been my experience so far.  But maybe I live in a more conservative area that you do.  We have a lot of homeopathic, homeschooling, energy healing members in my area of Davis Co. 

A lot of what you are describing is what I see around me as well.

There are also several facebook groups geared towards those that are saints and anti vax/anti mask.  

The most common argument I see with those who are conservative  but faithful are "President Nelson is old so it makes sense for him to get it.  He said we should pray about it and we did.  The answer we got is not to do it because ___________."

The blank is a mixture of stuff like not FDA approved and causes infertility. 

There was one woman in my ward that was huge against masks.  I was shocked when she did an about face and shared how the prophet says she should wear masks.  She is seriously the only person I know who changed her mind because of what church leaders said. It touched me that she would be willing to change her mind. 

A couple of weeks ago I got the chance to thank her for being ok to change her mind and posting about following the prophet.  She told me she was inspired to do so because she got the inspiration that people would be blessed to follow the prophet even when the prophet is wrong.

So my feelings are the same as yours about how mask mandates etc will work.

Edited August 2, 2021 by Rain

[pogi]

5 hours ago, rongo said:

We'll see whose read on the situation is closest to what happens, but I don't think that direction from Area Presidencies re: masks in churches and temples will be changed to require them (insist that they are enforced). I think the Brethren and the hierarchy down to the local levels knows that there is a real risk of lasting discontent and apathy if there is any reverting back to the masking, "mitigation protocols," or Zoom church of the past year and a half. 

I agree that it likely wont be enforced, but I think the lack of membership wearing masks during a huge surge which is stressing the healthcare system - prompting many families to not attend church because they feel unsafe there with their unvaccinated children -  may very well influence them to double down on their efforts to encourage members to wear masks.  If the surge gets much worse, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see that.  That's all I am saying.  I have said nothing of zoom meetings etc. 

5 hours ago, rongo said:

a and b) Look around at most wards (including yours, pogi). Both members' actions, and leaders' leadership (active and passive) are on display. 

Which is exactly why I think they might bring up masks again.  No one seems to be listening, and the leadership does take it seriously.  They want all of their members to feel safe and welcome at church.  They want to preserve life and temporal well-being.  They want us to be good citizens and love our neighbor.  

5 hours ago, rongo said:

I think the approach is to try to make everyone happy, not unlike with the gospel topics essay on the priesthood ban (disavowal, but room left to continue believing it was God's will). Officially, masks required, but not enforced or even asked about, in practice (and this is known to them. It has to be. Their action/inaction reveals what they want to have happen).

The "highest levels of leadership" are very much pro-mask in policy, but very much laissez faire in practice. Look around at most local wards, stakes, and temples. 

rongo, the CDC recommendation to wear masks again has only been in effect for a few days!  I wouldn't take the church's silence as approval of current practice, nor as an indicator that they will not take further action. 

Keep in mind where we are coming from.  Case rates have been at extreme lows, vaccines were implemented, and the CDC suggested that masks are not needed anymore for vaccinated people.  It felt like it was over - we had beat it. Things were coming back to normal.  Is it any wonder why people stopped wearing masks at church, or why church leadership hasn't said any more about it?  Things are changing rongo.  And they are changing quickly.  This is a whole new ball game with this variant.  If things keep going the way they are, I feel confident that we will see more said about masks.  

I, for one, will not go back to church with my children until something changes.  Church is so high risk with people singing in the pews all around you.  No distancing between rows.  No masks.  low vaccine rates.  And now add to that a variant that can be transmitted despite vaccination.   I will continue at home church until something changes.  I know that I am not alone in feeling unsafe at church.  It is not too much to ask for people to wear masks to make it a much more safe environment for all. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

That hasn't been my experience so far.  But maybe I live in a more conservative area that you do.  We have a lot of homeopathic, homeschooling, energy healing members in my area of Davis Co. 

That surprises me.  I live in a very conservative area of Draper.  Maybe not as much homeopathic/energy healing stuff, but very conservative.  Before the CDC said that vaccinated people no longer need to wear masks, almost 100% of members wore masks to church because of the area presidency letter.  Was it really that different in your ward?  The majority were not wearing masks before the CDC guidelines change?  There was only 1 family that I saw consistently not wear masks.  After the adjustment to CDC guidelines - all masks were off.   If the area presidency came out with another letter reminding members to wear masks, or if something is said in general conference, I have no doubt that the majority of members would comply.  That is the type of people we are.  There may be some that wont, but they will be the minority. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

This is the article I referenced in the past.  It’s a really good explanation:

https://intermountainhealthcare.org/blogs/topics/covid-19/2020/11/covid-19-what-it-means-for-a-hospital-icu-to-be-at-capacity/

That is exactly it, thank you.  Putting it in my notes.

[bluebell]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

That surprises me.  I live in a very conservative area of Draper.  Maybe not as much homeopathic/energy healing stuff, but very conservative.  Before the CDC said that vaccinated people no longer need to wear masks, almost 100% of members wore masks to church because of the area presidency letter.  Was it really that different in your ward?  The majority were not wearing masks before the CDC guidelines change?  There was only 1 family that I saw consistently not wear masks.  After the adjustment to CDC guidelines - all masks were off.   If the area presidency came out with another letter reminding members to wear masks, or if something is said in general conference, I have no doubt that the majority of members would comply.  That is the type of people we are.  There may be some that wont, but they will be the minority. 

Yes it was.  And not just in my ward but the wards around us as well (in our stake and a neighboring stake).  But like I said, my area was SUPER pro-julie rowe when all that went down, to the point where stake presidents had to get involved.  So those are the kind of members I'm talking about.  Good people. A little out there.

These were the same people who were actively upset that Pres. Nelson got the shot and encouraged other members to get it.  If I had to guess I would guess that the majority of members in my area aren't vaccinated.

[bluebell]

32 minutes ago, Rain said:

A lot of what you are describing is what I see around me as well.

There are also several facebook groups geared towards those that are saints and anti vax/anti mask.  

The most common argument I see with those who are conservative  but faithful are "President Nelson is old so it makes sense for him to get it.  He said we should pray about it and we did.  The answer we got is not to do it because ___________."

The blank is a mixture of stuff like not FDA approved and causes fertility. 

There was one woman in my ward that was huge against masks.  I was shocked when she did an about face and shared how the prophet says she should wear masks.  She is seriously the only person I know who changed her mind because of what church leaders said.

It touched me that she would be willing to change her mind.  A couple of weeks ago I got the chance to thank her for being ok to change her mind and posting about following the prophet.  She told me she was inspired to do so because she got the inspiration that people would be blessed to follow the prophet even when the prophet is wrong.

So my feelings are the same as yours about how mask mandates etc will work.

I'm out of rep points but glad I'm not the only one.  This is how my parents ward as been in Wyoming as well. My parents were some of the few that wore them, even during the worst of the pandemic.

That bolded part made me laugh.  Sounds like she still thinks masks are useless. 

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Yes it was.  And not just in my ward but the wards around us as well (in our stake and a neighboring stake).  But like I said, my area was SUPER pro-julie rowe when all that went down, to the point where stake presidents had to get involved.  So those are the kind of members I'm talking about.  Good people. A little out there.

These were the same people who were actively upset that Pres. Nelson got the shot and encouraged other members to get it.  If I had to guess I would guess that the majority of members in my area aren't vaccinated.

That is depressing.

I think I am starting to understand how Joseph Smith felt:

Quote

“There has been a great difficulty in getting anything into the heads of this generation. It has been like splitting hemlock knots with a corn-dodger [a piece of corn bread] for a wedge, and a pumpkin for a beetle [a wooden mallet]. Even the Saints are slow to understand."

I do think your area is an outlier in terms of Julie Rowe quackery though.  Energy healing etc. is fairly popular, but doesn't represent the majority by any means.  I still feel confident that most would sustain their leaders admonitions. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by pogi