USU78 Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2020-06-26/elder-tad-r-callister-the-founding-fathers-coincidence-or-providence-187267 3
Tacenda Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) Thanks for the post, USU78! It made me look into the founding father's religions and this article came up, I found interesting, and the meme below: https://allthatsinteresting.com/founding-fathers-religion Edited June 27, 2020 by Tacenda
CV75 Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 3 hours ago, USU78 said: https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2020-06-26/elder-tad-r-callister-the-founding-fathers-coincidence-or-providence-187267 Yep, make love, not war!
Robert F. Smith Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 3 hours ago, USU78 said: https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2020-06-26/elder-tad-r-callister-the-founding-fathers-coincidence-or-providence-187267 Not sure that the Deism of Thomas Jefferson and his stringent view of the Bible would fit well with Elder Callister's paean to him and his "prophecy." Jefferson was, rather, a political genius. There was no more important Founding Father than Jefferson. If Jefferson had not turned traitor to King and Country (George III and England), we might never have seen the religious freedom and civil liberties which have made the LDS endeavor possible. The success of that project seems so improbable. Yet a conspiracy of traitors made the American experiment possible and saw it through its difficult birth and childhood. We should all be very grateful that they were not cowards. 2
Duncan Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 What is with Elder Callister writing these articles? he seems to be the one emeritus GA that does this kind of thing! I don't know tickety-boo about the founding fathers or anything about that founding of the the US so I can't speak to the article aside from who writes it!
CV75 Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 50 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not sure that the Deism of Thomas Jefferson and his stringent view of the Bible would fit well with Elder Callister's paean to him and his "prophecy." Jefferson was, rather, a political genius. There was no more important Founding Father than Jefferson. If Jefferson had not turned traitor to King and Country (George III and England), we might never have seen the religious freedom and civil liberties which have made the LDS endeavor possible. The success of that project seems so improbable. Yet a conspiracy of traitors made the American experiment possible and saw it through its difficult birth and childhood. We should all be very grateful that they were not cowards. Like Caiaphas, Jefferson "may have unwittingly said things about the Savior that had deeper meaning in Christian hindsight." But both spoke "prophesy" according to the light they possessed, and neither was "wrong". And perhaps Jefferson was speaking "wittingly" after all.. or that he viewed "the genuine doctrines of Jesus, so long perverted by his pseudo-priests," and yet to be restored / reformed, as ideal in purely secular terms.
USU78 Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 Nobody's going to speak to the obvious abortion subtext? 😈 2
USU78 Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not sure that the Deism of Thomas Jefferson and his stringent view of the Bible would fit well with Elder Callister's paean to him and his "prophecy." Jefferson was, rather, a political genius. There was no more important Founding Father than Jefferson. If Jefferson had not turned traitor to King and Country (George III and England), we might never have seen the religious freedom and civil liberties which have made the LDS endeavor possible. The success of that project seems so improbable. Yet a conspiracy of traitors made the American experiment possible and saw it through its difficult birth and childhood. We should all be very grateful that they were not cowards. I don't think it's sufficient to pin Jefferson down as "merely" a deist [lower case intended]. It's much more complex than that, and I daresay he himself felt different things at different times during his life. 1
rodheadlee Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 3 hours ago, Tacenda said: Thanks for the post, USU78! It made me look into the founding father's religions and this article came up, I found interesting, and the meme below: https://allthatsinteresting.com/founding-fathers-religion Yes the freedom to worship as we will made possible the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ. 4
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted June 27, 2020 Popular Post Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, CV75 said: Like Caiaphas, Jefferson "may have unwittingly said things about the Savior that had deeper meaning in Christian hindsight." But both spoke "prophesy" according to the light they possessed, and neither was "wrong". And perhaps Jefferson was speaking "wittingly" after all.. or that he viewed "the genuine doctrines of Jesus, so long perverted by his pseudo-priests," and yet to be restored / reformed, as ideal in purely secular terms. Without strict separation of church and state, all of Jefferson's efforts would have failed. The Founders brilliantly made that separation the gold-standard of American political life. Jefferson was in no sense doing the Lord's work, but rather enabling others to do it. That is his true legacy, in which all the Founders shared. The only religion they gave us was civil religion, but that was key to giving the true faith a chance to be reborn and prosper. They gave us all a level playing field. Edited June 27, 2020 by Robert F. Smith 5
CV75 Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Without strict separation of church and state, all of Jefferson's efforts would have failed. The Founders brilliantly made that separation the gold-standard of American political life. Jefferson was in no sense doing the Lord's work, but rather enabling others to do it. That is his true legacy, in which all the Founders shared. The only religion they gave us was civil religion, but that was key to giving the true faith a chance to be reborn and prosper. They gave us all a level playing field. Absolutely. The founding fathers didn't set us up as a "Christian nation" (theocracy) and Jefferson leveraged what he considered, intellectually, to be the constitutional (as in government) superiority of the "genuine doctrines of Jesus" -- whatever his brand of belief in a supreme creator. Edited June 27, 2020 by CV75 1
USU78 Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 When Jefferson denounces the Priest, he is, in large part, speaking to High Church worship, RC and Episcopalian. The FFs were nearly unanimous on that point. Indeed, George III tended to call the Revolution his "Presbyterian War." 2
USU78 Posted June 27, 2020 Author Posted June 27, 2020 Preemptive answer to CFR: https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/09/presbyterian-rebellion/
InCognitus Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 When the groups of people came to the American continent seeking religious freedom, they came here seeking freedom not for all, but for their own form of worship, and they brought with them the same intolerance that they themselves had experienced in the Old World. Witches were burned and heretics persecuted, just as in the Old World. The American colonists had simply transported those traditions to new shores. But here in America, there were many colonies, each with differing views on religion. Separation of church and state in America was a vital prerequisite to the restoration of the gospel. Had a state religion been established, the gospel could not have been restored under the restrictions that state religion and government would impose. Nor would it have been possible to spread the gospel to other nations if America had been controlled by a government sponsored religion. Fortunately, with so many religious traditions settled in North America, no one colony had power to force all others to worship its way. So it was out of political necessity that the Thirteen Colonies, when they united to form a new nation, were forced to approve religious freedom and to let each church in each colony go its own way. Ironically it was the diversity that gave birth to the unity. That is one of the many miracles that I see coming to pass in the formation of this country. 1
Bob Crockett Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 20 minutes ago, InCognitus said: When the groups of people came to the American continent seeking religious freedom, they came here seeking freedom not for all, but for their own form of worship, and they brought with them the same intolerance that they themselves had experienced in the Old World. Witches were burned and heretics persecuted, just as in the Old World. The American colonists had simply transported those traditions to new shores. But here in America, there were many colonies, each with differing views on religion. Separation of church and state in America was a vital prerequisite to the restoration of the gospel. Had a state religion been established, the gospel could not have been restored under the restrictions that state religion and government would impose. Nor would it have been possible to spread the gospel to other nations if America had been controlled by a government sponsored religion. Fortunately, with so many religious traditions settled in North America, no one colony had power to force all others to worship its way. So it was out of political necessity that the Thirteen Colonies, when they united to form a new nation, were forced to approve religious freedom and to let each church in each colony go its own way. Ironically it was the diversity that gave birth to the unity. That is one of the many miracles that I see coming to pass in the formation of this country. Your perceptions constitute revisionist history and popularize nativist fictions. See my paper at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://lawandreligion.com/sites/law-religion/files/Religious-Free-Speech-Crockett.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiozevyiKPqAhWTBc0KHctKDnoQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3Aj5q3z0JpWhkkMmQ2DyNB which Elder Oaks has cited in speeches and a paper
InCognitus Posted June 27, 2020 Posted June 27, 2020 31 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said: Your perceptions constitute revisionist history and popularize nativist fictions. See my paper at https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://lawandreligion.com/sites/law-religion/files/Religious-Free-Speech-Crockett.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiozevyiKPqAhWTBc0KHctKDnoQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3Aj5q3z0JpWhkkMmQ2DyNB which Elder Oaks has cited in speeches and a paper I'm not sure I understand what you are calling "revisionist history" in what I said. My main point is that diversity about religious belief (or whether there should be any religion at all for that matter) contributed to the religious freedom that we enjoy in this country, and a state religion would not have provided the proper environment for the restoration of the gospel to take place. Your paper points out antipathy toward religion in the history of this country and religion's voice in politics, but are you suggesting that diversity of religious faiths had nothing to do with the colonizing of this country and the views that people have toward religion here?
JLHPROF Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 9 hours ago, Tacenda said: Thanks for the post, USU78! It made me look into the founding father's religions and this article came up, I found interesting, and the meme below: https://allthatsinteresting.com/founding-fathers-religion So you're saying God used them providentially even if they didn't fully believe? Happens all the time.
teddyaware Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, Tacenda said: Thanks for the post, USU78! It made me look into the founding father's religions and this article came up, I found interesting, and the meme below: https://allthatsinteresting.com/founding-fathers-religion Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. (John Adams) The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded. (James Madison). We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. (Thomas Jefferson) Edited June 28, 2020 by teddyaware 1
halconero Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: There was no more important Founding Father than Jefferson. Why you gotta do my boy Paine dirty like that?
Robert F. Smith Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 1 hour ago, halconero said: Why you gotta do my boy Paine dirty like that? Paine was an extremist. He meant well, but he went too far.
mrmarklin Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 4 hours ago, JLHPROF said: So you're saying God used them providentially even if they didn't fully believe? Happens all the time. The founding fathers were mostly deists. But many had a problem with organized religions of the time. There certainly was never to be a national religion, such as exist in Europe to this present day.
Bob Crockett Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 7 hours ago, mrmarklin said: The founding fathers were mostly deists. But many had a problem with organized religions of the time. There certainly was never to be a national religion, such as exist in Europe to this present day. Then why did state religions continue in the US and why did the founding fathers not object
Thinking Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 How would Elder Callister explain the births of the evildoers? Did God place them also? There are men and women who accomplish significant things (good and bad). It's easy to retroactively give credit to God or some other being for arranging their placement. 1
CV75 Posted June 28, 2020 Posted June 28, 2020 16 hours ago, Bob Crockett said: State religion until 1830. For one thing. The first Great Awakening movement seems to have led to the eventual move to disestablish state churches in America. I'm trying to find when New York disestablished its state church (Dutch Reformed? Episcopal?) and whether this occurred as a colony or a state. Any links? Thank you.
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