Will There Be Any Women in Perdition?

[pcarthew]

33 minutes ago, Rain said:

And please don't equate motherhood with the priesthood.  Motherhood goes with fatherhood.

I said without motherhood the Priesthood has no purpose.  I will also add without fatherhood the priesthood has no purpose either.  It goes without out saying that fatherhood goes with motherhood, that is why we suffer so much in the world today...not enough families have men who understand fatherhood and we are rapidly loosing the motherhood bit also.  

[stemelbow]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by "contradiction."

After his birth he was taken to Egypt to flee Herod in only one account.  The other one has Jesus taken to Jerusalem after he was born and that political story you mentioned did not happen.  

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As for "seeming lack of support in history," I quite okay with that.  The vast majority of events in the world have not been meticulously documented and recorded ("in history").  That doesn't mean they didn't happen.

Certainly, lack of support doesn't mean they didn't happen.  But when history shows that the story doesn't quite fit, it's reasonable to say it didn't happen as the story suggests.  Did Herod kill al children 2 and under?  Where is that shown in history?  Of course, that's simply a claim made in Matthew, but certainly was not the case in Luke.  

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think it's pretty good.  There are plenty more scriptural examples of events having both "political" and divine elements.  The plagues of Egypt.  Elijah's contest with the priests of Baal.  The ordination of David as king.  The easing of the burdens of the people of Alma in Mosiah 24.  The murder of the chief judge in Helaman 8-9.  

Isn't that axiomatic?  

Thanks,

-Smac

THanks.  Yes, the claim of inspiration anywhere is only acceptable to those who accept it.  That's kind of the point.  

[pcarthew]

23 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The same Mosiah Hancock vision indicated we were created in pairs and then only the men fell with the adversary.  (An idea that seems to have been taken from the Greeks and Plato, not really scripture).
Then according to the vision God established polygamy as a solution.

 

Why do you keep trying to tie my words to Mosiah Hancock??  

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

Why do you keep trying to tie my words to Mosiah Hancock??  

Because of the similarities.
But the idea that only men can become devils (perdition) is found throughout LDS theological history.
Several of the prophets agree with you and some disagree.  https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Plan_of_salvation/Sons_of_Perdition/Can_women_be_"Sons_of_Perdition"

• "Woman must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice, but she will never become an angel to the devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy." Brigham Young
• "There was some informal talk regarding the question as to whether there are, or would be, any women in hell. It was conceded that some women by their acts—namely, abortion, child murder after birth, and the poisoning of their husbands, and other criminal acts—merited a place in the lower regions. President Smith expressed the view that women who commit such crimes as those mentioned would receive punishment to the uttermost farthing, but that there would be no daughters of perdition. This, he said, was his view in regard to the matter, which also seemed to meet the minds of the brethren." Joseph F. Smith
• "That there will also be daughters of Perdition there is no doubt in the minds of the brethren." Wilford Woodruff

Perhaps the best response to this question comes from Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

• Somebody called me up on the telephone and asked if there were daughters of perdition. I said: “I don’t know” and he said, “How can I find out—I just called Spencer Kimball and he told me he didn’t know either.

[pcarthew]

32 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because of the similarities.
But the idea that only men can become devils (perdition) is found throughout LDS theological history.
Several of the prophets agree with you and some disagree.  https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Plan_of_salvation/Sons_of_Perdition/Can_women_be_"Sons_of_Perdition"

• "Woman must atone for sins committed by the volition of her own choice, but she will never become an angel to the devil, and sin so far as to place herself beyond the reach of mercy." Brigham Young
• "There was some informal talk regarding the question as to whether there are, or would be, any women in hell. It was conceded that some women by their acts—namely, abortion, child murder after birth, and the poisoning of their husbands, and other criminal acts—merited a place in the lower regions. President Smith expressed the view that women who commit such crimes as those mentioned would receive punishment to the uttermost farthing, but that there would be no daughters of perdition. This, he said, was his view in regard to the matter, which also seemed to meet the minds of the brethren." Joseph F. Smith
• "That there will also be daughters of Perdition there is no doubt in the minds of the brethren." Wilford Woodruff

Perhaps the best response to this question comes from Elder Bruce R. McConkie:

• Somebody called me up on the telephone and asked if there were daughters of perdition. I said: “I don’t know” and he said, “How can I find out—I just called Spencer Kimball and he told me he didn’t know either.

I express an opinion about an interesting topic (to me at least) and you come after me like you do...accusing me of plagiarism, mate I don't get it.  

t'

[JLHPROF]

10 minutes ago, pcarthew said:

I express an opinion about an interesting topic (to me at least) and you come after me like you do...accusing me of plagiarism, mate I don't get it. 

Not my intent.  I prefer doctrinal, theological, and historical topics to all the social and political stuff flooding the board these days.  My apologies.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

..................................

The question is what is required to make a Son of Perdition?  If it's something women have the opportunity to do then there can be Daughters of Perdition too.  Unless the idea is that a woman isn't capable of that level of sin, rejection and rebellion.

"Men" and "women" are fully human,  whereas they were not so in premortality.  Moreover, in standard English, the phrase "sons of perdition" is not exclusively male, but inclusive of both genders.  So speculation on the percentage of pre-mortal females in Perdition is untethered to any factual base.  We just don't know and have no way of knowing.

In this life, we do know that 93.2 % of incarcerated U.S. federal prisoners are male, while 6.8 % are female.  Does this indicate that females are less likely to do bad things?  Jordan Peterson points out that females are far more agreeable than males.  We also know that females are far more faithful in religious observance.  Does this mean that significantly fewer of them will end up in Outer Darkness?  Wouldn't surprise me if that were so.

[JAHS]

6 hours ago, pcarthew said:

Perdition, the furthest place from God that a resurrected person can go, and those get that lucky ticket are only referred to as "Sons of Perdition" NOT "Sons and Daughters of Perdition".  I believe through many years of study that it will only  be a few but will be males that go to perdition.  Does anyone have any thoughts if women will also be there?  If so any particular thinking on why?  

If there are no females bound for perdition, is it plausible to consider when the third of the hosts of heaven chose to follow Satan, all those how went down that irredeemable path are all male spirits. 

 

Cheers....

No. There's no reason why about half of them could not have been female spirits.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, pcarthew said:

I completely agree.  I have just as strong a feelings about Fathers and our Heavenly Father and our Saviour Jesus Christ.  My thoughts on either are not one without the other.  It is my feeling about women and the bearing of life, it is not a mutually exclusive view on women.  It can be equally said that the Priesthood is useless with out men because with out men God's plan is also frustrated too.  We know, for those who believe in the doctrine of the church, the ultimate of all heavens cannot be without man or woman.  It is an unbreakable union that if nurtured will never end with the true covenants in place. In no way I would demean men, without them there is no plan and without woman it is the same.  Just to be clear, my comments were in no way to be exclusively about women to the exclusion of our great brotherhood. 😊

Understood -- I was saying that the exalted potential for women in God's plan must allow for perdition also, given opposition in all things.

[CV75]

46 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

"Men" and "women" are fully human,  whereas they were not so in premortality.  Moreover, in standard English, the phrase "sons of perdition" is not exclusively male, but inclusive of both genders.  So speculation on the percentage of pre-mortal females in Perdition is untethered to any factual base.  We just don't know and have no way of knowing.

In this life, we do know that 93.2 % of incarcerated U.S. federal prisoners are male, while 6.8 % are female.  Does this indicate that females are less likely to do bad things?  Jordan Peterson points out that females are far more agreeable than males.  We also know that females are far more faithful in religious observance.  Does this mean that significantly fewer of them will end up in Outer Darkness?  Wouldn't surprise me if that were so.

I think if any gender-associated/correlated behaviors grow out of the conditions of a fallen world (e.g. "the traditions of men" -- whether considered to be good or bad), the Lord would take them into account when assessing our accountability.

[Robert F. Smith]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I think if any gender-associated/correlated behaviors grow out of the conditions of a fallen world (e.g. "the traditions of men" -- whether considered to be good or bad), the Lord would take them into account when assessing our accountability.

Good point, although "traditions of men" includes all females.

[Islander]

10 hours ago, pcarthew said:

Perdition, the furthest place from God that a resurrected person can go, and those get that lucky ticket are only referred to as "Sons of Perdition" NOT "Sons and Daughters of Perdition".  I believe through many years of study that it will only  be a few but will be males that go to perdition.  Does anyone have any thoughts if women will also be there?  If so any particular thinking on why?  

If there are no females bound for perdition, is it plausible to consider when the third of the hosts of heaven chose to follow Satan, all those how went down that irredeemable path are all male spirits. 

 

Cheers....

Of course. There are and will always be evil men and women destined to that regrettable end. There are linguistic nuances in both Greek and Hebrew that render a preponderance the male substantive, subject and even adjectives in the scriptures. 

[juliann]

On 6/19/2020 at 8:23 AM, pcarthew said:

I think that there is great insight to what you are saying.  I also believe that women hold a special place in the heavens because of the uniqueness of how they bear children.  It is with great travail that women bring mortal life in too being.  It is generally through much sickness, suffering and agony they endure that mankind might have a mortal, temporal existence. So this creates the  most unique of sacred relationships between Christ and Women.  Women bear the human race into mortality and Christ bears the human race into immortality through greater suffering, pain and torment.  It is a unique relationship many will not understand until the next life.  The reverence that the generations and nations will show to our sisters in the next life will be hard to imagine from our mortal perspective.  God's work is frustrated with out a willingness from women to suffer often nigh unto death to bring about life.  So as a mother bears children one by one into mortality, our Saviours bears us one by one into immortality.  It is one of the most powerful and beautiful relationships in the universe.  It is a mission and responsibility as great as the priesthood. Without our Mothers the priesthood has no use or purpose.  Perhaps that uniqueness of the bearing of life qualifies our sisters for something special.

You obviously mean well, but being a woman isn't synonymous with any of this. And motherhood certainly has nothing to do with priesthood, otherwise you would be ordained a father instead of a priesthood holder. These are matters that women must figure out for themselves as priesthood is being expanded and we have been told as much. It is best to leave such personal revelatory things to the sex with the stewardship over them unless you are the Prophet. 

[juliann]

As an aside, I'm getting a real chuckle over the sudden eagerness to equate "men" with "women" when that distinction is held so close to the heart when it comes to priesthood.   LOL

[juliann]

On 6/19/2020 at 7:25 AM, pogi said:

“Sons of men“, for example means human beings.

Actually, it doesn't. It means men. It has taken modern day revelation to start including women. 

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, juliann said:

Actually, it doesn't. It means men. It has taken modern day revelation to start including women. 

Sons of men - "It occurs most frequently, however, as a synonym for "mankind," "the human race" (Ps. xc. 3, cvii. 8, cxv. 16, cxlv. 12); it has this sense also in the passage in which wisdom is said to delight with the "sons of men" (Prov. viii. 31)."

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13913-son-of-man

 

 

[Thinking]

This is the most important topic ever created.

[CV75]

22 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Good point, although "traditions of men" includes all females.

Absolutely.

I am wondering what gender-associated/correlated behaviors grow out of the eternal aspect of gender and originate in the plan for godhood. The most basic behaviors seem to be those that engender the "continuation of the seeds" (however one supposes that might be accomplished).  The complementing spiritual attributes would somehow correlate, I think, to the physical attributes and resulting behaviors. Perhaps it is merely the miracle of the exact  same spiritual attributes of godliness leveraged and expressed through different/complementary bodies.

ETA: In which case, are there also variations in societal norms through which godliness is expressed in heaven as long as the gods get the job done and eternal gender is observed?

Edited June 20, 2020 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

Absolutely.

I am wondering what gender-associated/correlated behaviors grow out of the eternal aspect of gender and originate in the plan for godhood. The most basic behaviors seem to be those that engender the "continuation of the seeds" (however one supposes that might be accomplished).  The complementing spiritual attributes would somehow correlate, I think, to the physical attributes and resulting behaviors. Perhaps it is merely the miracle of the exact  same spiritual attributes of godliness leveraged and expressed through different/complementary bodies.

Yes.  Unmitigated sameness would certainly be boring.  Surely Godliness entails cleverness, wit, humor, and gender differences (vive la difference!).

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes.  Unmitigated sameness would certainly be boring.  Surely Godliness entails cleverness, wit, humor, and gender differences (vive la difference!).

In which case, we might also find variations in societal norms through which godliness is expressed in heaven as long as the gods get the job done and eternal gender is observed.

[theplains]

On 6/19/2020 at 11:48 AM, pcarthew said:

It can be equally said that the Priesthood is useless with out men because with out men God's plan is also frustrated too

In the LDS account of the Garden of Eden narrative, obedience to God would also have frustrated God's plan.

[Robert F. Smith]

18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

In which case, we might also find variations in societal norms through which godliness is expressed in heaven as long as the gods get the job done and eternal gender is observed.

Yes, and, as Shakespeare has it in Antony & Cleopatra, "Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale / Her infinite variety."  Act 2, Scene 2.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 minutes ago, theplains said:

In the LDS account of the Garden of Eden narrative, obedience to God would also have frustrated God's plan.

The LDS interpretation revels in the clear choice between two divine commands, not just one.  The drama is actually a formal ritual in which only one choice is actually to be preferred.  The rest of Christendom misses that point entirely.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

In the LDS account of the Garden of Eden narrative, obedience to God would also have frustrated God's plan.

Not necessarily.  That point of view assumes that God had no plan to ever allow Adam and Eve to eat of the fruit.  

[Meadowchik]

It doesn't make sense for God to give women a pass just because they're women. I'm certainly not counting on it!