Byu Honor Code Matches New Handbook

[blueglass]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

I acknowledge that within this same lesson, it states that "homosexual behavior" is a serious sin.  But what exactly is "homosexual behavior"?  Dating?  Holding hands with the same sex in a romantic manner?  Kissing?

All those now appear to be acceptable as long as it does not lead to a SSM or actual sex (which is forbidden for heterosexual couples too).

I can see more changes being made and things evolving to those entering a SSM being held to the same standards of sexual morality as those entering heterosexual marriages.  No pre-marital sex and no adultery, etc.   I know many disagree and believe this will never happen.  But these are probably the same members who believed it would never be ok for gay couples to kiss publicly and openly date and show affection on the BYU campus.  One thing that I do know for sure....there are more changes coming.  None of us know what those are, of course (except possibly some of our leaders if any are currently being discussed privately).

Big change to go from the 14-Nov 1991 first presidency letter which clearly prohibited "any homosexual behavior" to now condoning some homosexual behavior (embracing, kissing, dating) as not sinful and even chaste and not an ecclesiastical endorsement red flag.  Before the church made clear distinctions between attraction, thoughts and feelings vs behavior. 

I think this will result in greater happiness and mental health for thousands of lgbtq members of the church.  Equalizing what was only permitted in a handful of progressive wards and stakes in portland, SF, boston, or nyc to finally church-wide permitting gay couples to express physical affection and attend church without scorn and ridicule or risk of expulsion or disciplinary action.  The church also has clearly walked back the 14-Nov 1991 push for reparative therapy when it said that "thoughts and feelings, regardless of their causes, can and should be overcome". 

Edited February 22, 2020 by blueglass

[Fair Dinkum]

Spencer W. Kimball & Ernest Wilkinson are rolling over in their graves. 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Fair Dinkum

[blueglass]

16 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Spencer W. Kimball & Ernest Wilkinson are rolling over in their graves. 

Didn't Wilkinson start the "report on your neighbor" spy network at byu?  He was worried about underground communists roaming campus. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Before the church made clear distinctions between attraction, thoughts and feelings vs behavior. 

Which is why I would wait awhile before drawing any conclusions.  BYU HCO may not be making that distinction any more (assuming it doesn't), but what about bishops?  The result might end up being the same if bishops pull their endorsement.

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Which is why I would wait awhile before drawing any conclusions.  BYU HCO may not be making that distinction any more (assuming it doesn't), but what about bishops?  The result might end up being the same if bishops pull their endorsement.

That’s a good point.  There are comments on Twitter that students have personally confirmed with the HCO that same sex dating is now allowed.  If that really is the case, it is still mostly irrelevant if a student’s Bishop sees same sex dating as reason to deny the ecclesiastical endorsement. 

[rockpond]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Spencer W. Kimball & Ernest Wilkinson are rolling over in their graves. 

Par for the course... we overturn past prophetic statements all the time. 

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, rockpond said:

That’s a good point.  There are comments on Twitter that students have personally confirmed with the HCO that same sex dating is now allowed.  If that really is the case, it is still mostly irrelevant if a student’s Bishop sees same sex dating as reason to deny the ecclesiastical endorsement. 

I think there are subtle but important distinctions between something being allowed by the code, not being a violation of the code (these being interpretations of the text) and being absent from the code. Its absence renders it a non-issue.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

So anyone know if given that it appears Chastity standards have been punted back to be handled solely now by bishops by the HCO, has anything been said about the dress code?  I see cleanliness and legal standards as appropriate under the new standard and beards as well because that is like having to wear a school uniform, but what about clothing that is said to be "immodest"?  Will they be refusing to accept calls about a young woman wearing a too short skirt, for example?

If someone does call the Honor Code office, ask them if it impacts anything else please.

Despite my attempt at humor before, I did look it up at it was approved 02/12/2020 as well:

https://policy.byu.edu/view/index.php?p=229

Dress and Grooming Standards

The dress and grooming of both men and women should always be modest, neat, and clean, consistent with the dignity adherent to representing The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any of its institutions of higher education.

Modesty and cleanliness are important values that reflect personal dignity and integrity, through which students, staff, and faculty represent the principles and standards of the Church. Members of the BYU community commit themselves to observe the following standards, which reflect the direction of the Board of Trustees and the Church publication For the Strength of Youth. The Dress and Grooming Standards are as follows:

Men

A clean and well-cared-for appearance should be maintained. Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, revealing, or form fitting. Shorts must be knee-length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extreme styles or colors, and trimmed above the collar, leaving the ear uncovered. Sideburns should not extend below the earlobe or onto the cheek. If worn, moustaches should be neatly trimmed and may not extend beyond or below the corners of the mouth. Men are expected to be clean-shaven; beards are not acceptable. Earrings and other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

Women

A clean and well-cared-for appearance should be maintained. Clothing is inappropriate when it is sleeveless, strapless, backless, or revealing; has slits above the knee; or is form fitting. Dresses, skirts, and shorts must be knee-length or longer. Hairstyles should be clean and neat, avoiding extremes in styles or colors. Excessive ear piercing (more than one per ear) and all other body piercing are not acceptable. Shoes should be worn in all public campus areas.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

That’s a good point.  There are comments on Twitter that students have personally confirmed with the HCO that same sex dating is now allowed.  If that really is the case, it is still mostly irrelevant if a student’s Bishop sees same sex dating as reason to deny the ecclesiastical endorsement. 

Also, the choices the bishop has are: Do Not Endorse, Endorse With Reservations, Endorse, Strongly Endorse, and Please Contact Me. So it may not be the dating per se, but issues that are surfacing within the student's moral interpretation of and reaction to dating that may give him some concern.

[lostindc]

On 2/21/2020 at 10:43 AM, Calm said:

Even if the HCO no longer does discipline, but instead leaves that in the hands of bishops, this does not mean no discipline at this point.  It may end up that way, but it comes across to me more like HCO removing themselves from doing work that bishops cover.  People can still report to bishops and bishops can discipline.  It will be harder though given there will be times someone won't know what bishop to contact and it appears the HCO won't help.  Do they still have student directories so if you know someone's name you can see where they live? 

If instructions also change for bishops, that is when concluding open gay dating is not being disciplined would be accurate imo.

It is understandable imo if people see this as a move in that direction, but I think it is an overstatement to claim it is already there.

 

seems cowardly to leave heavy decisions such leaving the discipline of anything related to LGBT in the hands of local leadership.  Kind of strange that HQ wants to let local bishops set precedent.  Almost, seems like HQ wants to be able to distance from any sort of blame and leave the local leadership to take that load.  

[katherine the great]

I have a hard time understanding why our gay kids would WANT to attend BYU. What is the attraction? Are there any programs at BYU that are really superior to those of other schools? If they like Provo, or their friends are in Provo, I would think they would be better off at UVU. Seriously. The kid isn't going to stop being gay and the church is never going to fully accept him/her unless they choose a life time of celibacy. IMHO, I think their chances for happiness are much greater if they just avoid BYU schools altogether.

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I have a hard time understanding why our gay kids would WANT to attend BYU. What is the attraction? Are there any programs at BYU that are really superior to those of other schools? If they like Provo, or their friends are in Provo, I would think they would be better off at UVU. Seriously. The kid isn't going to stop being gay and the church is never going to fully accept him/her unless they choose a life time of celibacy. IMHO, I think their chances for happiness are much greater if they just avoid BYU schools altogether.

Calvin Burke has published he stayed at BYU with the intent of changing things.  I can see the attraction of believing one can and should have that kind of impact.  I don't think anywhere else connected with the Church could you have it.  Establish it at BYU and I can see expectations that eventually the rest of the Church does the same.  BYU culture follows the Church and Church culture follows BYU, at least in the States.  Probably a high percentage of our leaders attended BYU and this may continue.

Being part of trying to make that kind of massive change in the Church, that would appeal to many people imo.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Calm

[rockpond]

8 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I have a hard time understanding why our gay kids would WANT to attend BYU. What is the attraction? Are there any programs at BYU that are really superior to those of other schools? If they like Provo, or their friends are in Provo, I would think they would be better off at UVU. Seriously. The kid isn't going to stop being gay and the church is never going to fully accept him/her unless they choose a life time of celibacy. IMHO, I think their chances for happiness are much greater if they just avoid BYU schools altogether.

BYU is ranked #77 nationally and it does have some really great programs.  UVU, on the other hand, is not ranked and UVU out of state tuition is $10,000 more than BYU. 

[Meadowchik]

15 hours ago, blueglass said:

Big change to go from the 14-Nov 1991 first presidency letter which clearly prohibited "any homosexual behavior" to now condoning some homosexual behavior (embracing, kissing, dating) as not sinful and even chaste and not an ecclesiastical endorsement red flag.  Before the church made clear distinctions between attraction, thoughts and feelings vs behavior. 

I think this will result in greater happiness and mental health for thousands of lgbtq members of the church.  Equalizing what was only permitted in a handful of progressive wards and stakes in portland, SF, boston, or nyc to finally church-wide permitting gay couples to express physical affection and attend church without scorn and ridicule or risk of expulsion or disciplinary action.  The church also has clearly walked back the 14-Nov 1991 push for reparative therapy when it said that "thoughts and feelings, regardless of their causes, can and should be overcome". 

So does this mean that married gay couples would be allowed at BYU??

[Scott Lloyd]

On 2/21/2020 at 2:38 PM, JAHS said:

Don't know when but her twitter account says she is.

I just tried to find a definition for “queer” on Google and was left scratching my head. The explanations offered were so fuzzy as to leave me to conclude that the term in pop usage is virtually undefinable. 

[Scott Lloyd]

18 hours ago, blueglass said:

Didn't Wilkinson start the "report on your neighbor" spy network at byu?  He was worried about underground communists roaming campus. 

Wilkinson’s spy scandal was focused on  political ideology, not sexual orientation,  as far as I can tell. I don’t see that it’s a sustainable notion or historically accurate that reporting violations of the honor code is traceable to that episode. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

Here is a video of a BYU professor explaining the change to his class after speaking to the Honor Code Office.  The class applauds at one point and he also goes on to explain that now anyone who is not respectful (when they see gays dating, holding hands or kissing on campus), can be reported to the BYU Honor Code Office for not being respectful .  It's interesting to listen to.

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by ALarson

[Jeanne]

I thought this professor did a wonderful job to present this to his class as he did  It will be a blessing...a blessing that will be in real time..real affects...and visible.  I applaud this!!

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Here is a video of a BYU professor explaining the change to his class after speaking to the Honor Code Office.  The class applauds at one point and he also goes on to explain that now anyone who is not respectful (when they see gays dating, holding hands or kissing on campus), can be reported to the BYU Honor Code Office for not being respectful .  It's interesting to listen to.

 

Everyone everywhere should take a listen here. 

[rockpond]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So does this mean that married gay couples would be allowed at BYU??

Seems tough to prohibit it based on the new text of the honor code. 

[Meadowchik]

17 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Seems tough to prohibit it based on the new text of the honor code. 

I certainly hope so!

[CV75]

16 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I have a hard time understanding why our gay kids would WANT to attend BYU. What is the attraction? Are there any programs at BYU that are really superior to those of other schools? If they like Provo, or their friends are in Provo, I would think they would be better off at UVU. Seriously. The kid isn't going to stop being gay and the church is never going to fully accept him/her unless they choose a life time of celibacy. IMHO, I think their chances for happiness are much greater if they just avoid BYU schools altogether.

I think it depends on the kind of happiness they are looking for. While it may be the assumption in a highly sexualized society and therefore frowned upon in more conservative circles, people of the same gender showing affection are not necessarily engaged in a sexual relationship or advocating for sinful behavior.

[provoman]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

So does this mean that married gay couples would be allowed at BYU??

 

31 minutes ago, rockpond said:

Seems tough to prohibit it based on the new text of the honor code. 

 

13 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I certainly hope so!

Live a chaste and virtuous life, including abstaining from any sexual relations outside a marriage between a man and a woman.

And separately:

any other conduct or action inconsistent with the principles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Honor Code is not permitted.

Edited February 23, 2020 by provoman

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

Seems tough to prohibit it based on the new text of the honor code. 

Only if one assumes there will be no other avenue where discipline might take place. 

Is there any reason to assume that bishops would not pull endorsements for same sex marriage?

Imagine what happens to students at nonChurch colleges. Do they get called into their bishops if it becomes known they are in a same sex relationship?  Would they be called in for a council if they participated in a same sex marriage?

Unless BYU has been the only place LGBT+ students have ever encountered problems for engaging in same sex romantic and sexual behaviour, I don’t  understand why people seem to be assuming there is a huge change in church status and church status does affect attendance at BYU. 

Edited February 23, 2020 by Calm

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Here is a video of a BYU professor explaining the change to his class after speaking to the Honor Code Office. 

Wow! I'm totally blown away.He makes a lot of good points.