Byu Honor Code Matches New Handbook

[Calm]

https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/education/college/byu/byu-updates-honor-code-removes-references-to-homosexual-behavior/article_e0a5b498-09c0-505e-8543-506b143b61da.html

[Scott Lloyd]

I saw the Deseret News story on this. 
 

Nothing is really changed, practically speaking. 

[Hoss]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I saw the Deseret News story on this. 
 

Nothing is really changed, practically speaking. 

I didn't think BYU allowed same sex dating.  Apparently, they do now. 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I didn't think BYU allowed same sex dating.  Apparently, they do now. 

Not really.

 BYU twitter says principles remain the same.  Not sure how to link to it.  I saw a screenshot.

I think they will probably be rewriting it, otherwise they are going to get challenges I am guessing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BYU/status/1230258699693723648

Edited February 20, 2020 by Calm

[provoman]

nothing to see here

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by provoman

[provoman]

34 minutes ago, Hoss said:

I didn't think BYU allowed same sex dating.  Apparently, they do now. 

 

28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Not really.

 BYU twitter says principles remain the same.  Not sure how to link to it.  I saw a screenshot.

I think they will probably be rewriting it, otherwise they are going to get challenges I am guessing.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BYU/status/1230258699693723648

Also from BYU twitter

Quote

 

@BYU

 

The Honor Code Office will handle questions that arise on a case by case basis. For example, since dating means different things to different people, the Honor Code Office will work with students individually.

 

 

 

This is interesting, and it reminded of something Emma Gee - an openly gay athlete at BYU - said "I had to be very careful with my words, explaining: ‘I’ve dated – both boys and girls. But we’re not having sex or kissing.’”

[Hoss]

5 minutes ago, provoman said:

 

Also from BYU twitter

 

 

This is interesting, and it reminded of something Emma Gee - an openly gay athlete at BYU - said "I had to be very careful with my words, explaining: ‘I’ve dated – both boys and girls. But we’re not having sex or kissing.’”

This seems to indicate that same sex dating is now allowed at BYU.

https://twitter.com/OneLonePatriot1/status/1230264598776795136/photo/1

[rockpond]

From what I've read, it sure feels like they are now allowing dating for couples of the same gender.

Like other changes the church has made in recent years, it is being done in a way that is subtle and allows people to view it as not really changing.  Meanwhile significant change is gradually occurring.

[Calm]

Define dating. If you mean hanging out together with no physical relationship, sure. 

[provoman]

16 minutes ago, Hoss said:

This seems to indicate that same sex dating is now allowed at BYU.

https://twitter.com/OneLonePatriot1/status/1230264598776795136/photo/1

I would not trust a random tweet quoting an unnamed random BYU Honor Code Office employee; however, I do not disagree in concept of dating, until further clarification from BYU, I would say a student puts their standing at risk for kissing.

However, are we now in a "“It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘[dating]’ is. If the—if he—if ‘[dating]’ means [dating] and never has been [any dates], that is not—that is one thing.

Edited February 20, 2020 by provoman

[rockpond]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Define dating. If you mean hanging out together with no physical relationship, sure. 

We're certainly dealing with nebulous terms.  The above quoted BYU tweet seems to acknowledge that.

I think the interesting phrase that was in the BYU Honor Code that has now been deleted is the one that prohibited "all forms of physical of physical intimacy that give expression to homosexual feelings".

One could easily interpret that to mean that a gay couple could date, hold hands, hug, and even kiss.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, rockpond said:

One could easily interpret that to mean that a gay couple could date, hold hands, hug, and even kiss.

Yes, one could interpret it that way, but .I think it would be idiotic to do so if a student and risk a case worker who takes a hardline stance.

I would not be surprised if they clarify the wording if they end up with more problems than they think they have solved by doing it 'case by case'.  I don't think it is fair to the students either to be so vague.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Calm

[Thinking]

When I was at BYU I would sometimes contact a friend and we would meet at the RB to play pick-up basketball. My roommate and I would frequently hang out together.

Will there be dating police to make sure same-gender hanging out is not really same-gender dating?

[rockpond]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes, one could interpret it that way, but .I think it would be idiotic to do so if a student and risk a case worker who takes a hardline stance.

I would not be surprised if they do not clarify the wording if they end up with more problems than they think they have solved by doing it 'case by case'.  I don't think it is fair to the students either to be so vague.

I fully agree with all of the above.

[Calm]

36 minutes ago, rockpond said:

I fully agree with all of the above.

I think I have one too many nots in the "clarify" sentence now I reread it, but I figure you are agreeing with what I mean and not what I said.  

[rockpond]

46 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think I have one too many nots in the "clarify" sentence now I reread it, but I figure you are agreeing with what I mean and not what I said.  

Yes -- agreeing with what you meant.

I think this "deletion" from the honor code without some clarification to replace it leaves students, administrators, and honor code officers alike in a tough position trying to live within a framework that is now intentionally(?) vague.  It's just going to be problematic but I anticipate they'll do something to fix it (possibly published in the official honor code but perhaps just some behind the scenes training).

[provoman]

yeah, some clarification is definately needed.

Edited February 20, 2020 by provoman

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, provoman said:

............................

This is interesting, and it reminded of something Emma Gee - an openly gay athlete at BYU - said "I had to be very careful with my words, explaining: ‘I’ve dated – both boys and girls. But we’re not having sex or kissing.’”

Sounds very much like hanging out with a good buddy.  I never thought of it as "dating."

[Scott Lloyd]

If two people of the same sex at BYU go out together and call it “dating,” they invite problems. It would seem very much like flaunting in the face of the honor code to me. 
 

I think the wording should have been left as it was before. It’s a case of tinkering with what was not broken to begin with. Now, they’ll probably have to go back in and fix the problems the tinkering caused. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[stemelbow]

Wow.  It sounds like the Church is really struggling here.  There isn't the hardline stance well-defined and how to do with anymore.  When those statements come out there is tons of backlash.   I wonder how the Church is going to evolve on this, and if small steps are being taken now.  

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

If two people of the same sex at BYU go out together and call it “dating,” they invite problems. It would seem very much like flaunting in the face of the honor code to me. 
 

I think the wording should have been left as it was before. It’s a case of tinkering with what was not broken to begin with. Now, they’ll probably have to go back in and fix the problems the tinkering caused. 

I agree "it would seem very much like flaunting in the face of the Honor Code", except what part of the Honor Code? 

Previous Honor code prohibited homosexual behavior. Current Honor Code does not mention homosexual behavior. 

Again I agree with you on "flaunting" and I agree with Calm and Rockpond about vagueness. Otherwise at face value of the words of the Honor Code homosexual behavior that violates the Law of Chastity appears to be the only prohibition.

Edited February 20, 2020 by provoman

[provoman]

I wonder how this change affects landlords contracted with BYU.

Does Utah's non-discrimination housing law now apply to BYU housing landlords concerning homosexual behavior?

 

[rockpond]

15 minutes ago, provoman said:

I wonder how this change affects landlords contracted with BYU.

Does Utah's non-discrimination housing law now apply to BYU housing landlords concerning homosexual behavior?

 

Thankfully BYU has managed to retain the right to require gender separation in student housing.  But I don't think landlords are required to enforce any specific behavior rules (aside from the usual quiet enjoyment).

[rockpond]

I think that there is a strong possibility that this deletion was a mistake that will cause confusion and enforcement issues leading to a clarification which will generate negative publicity for BYU and the church.

But I also think it's possible that this was intentional as part of the ongoing development of how the church views and embraces LGBT members.

[california boy]

How about long hair and beards?  Would Jesus Christ and Brigham Young finally be able to attend BYU?