Calm Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) Can someone explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. “Wealth is the great equalizer. It gives you freedom, security, and peace of mind. It allows you to do and be what you want, to support worthy causes and help those closest to you. It enables you to follow your dreams, to spend your life the way you choose.” The slogan that goes with this idea is “Liberty through Wealth” and is in the context of liberty in America. I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. https://investmentu.com/the-great-american-wealth-project-review/ Please keep personalities out of it and just deal with the ideas please, not who is promoting them. I want to understand the reasoning, not condemn it...once that is achieved, people can do what they want as far as I am concerned with the board rules, but avoid details for several pages at least please. Edited January 31, 2020 by Calm
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) First, I just want to add to your request with the note that the concept of wealth being a great equalizer is separate from a person or group using the slogan to sell their product that is supposed to help you get rich quick. On to the question: unfortunately wealth does often mean access to institutional freedom. Compare a criminal case where the alleged victim can afford a lawyer to help advance their case, or the wealth, and that inherent influence, to apply pressure to the mayor or public prosecutor. Wealth can give you the chance to give attention to other causes in the interest of justice, or just simply public attention to projects of public interest. Wealth can help you invest in research and expertise to pursue an agenda affected by government approval or support. Wealth can give you the ability to take more time out to become informed on issues of public interest. It can give you the opportunity to support causes that impact your own liberties or those of others. It can help you afford an attorney when if you ever become subject to civil litigation or criminal charges. Wealth can have such a significant impact as to fundamentally change the relationship a person has with their government, and therefore the protection of their liberties. Edited January 31, 2020 by Meadowchik 2
bluebell Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: Can someone explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. “Wealth is the great equalizer. It gives you freedom, security, and peace of mind. It allows you to do and be what you want, to support worthy causes and help those closest to you. It enables you to follow your dreams, to spend your life the way you choose.” The slogan that goes with this idea is “Liberty through Wealth” and is in the context of liberty in America. I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. https://investmentu.com/the-great-american-wealth-project-review/ Please keep personalities out of it and just deal with the ideas please, not who is promoting them. I want to understand the reasoning, not condemn it...once that is achieved, people can do what they want as far as I am concerned with the board rules, but avoid details for several pages at least please. Maybe they are talking about everyone working towards achieving wealth, and not just some? Kind of like how they say that education is the great equalizer, even though not everyone gets the same level of education? 2
Amulek Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: Can someone explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. I suppose if only virtuous people were to become wealthy, they could conceivably apply their wealth toward uplifting the poor and strive for equality that way. That seems like a rather unlikely state of affairs though - at least, prior to the second coming. Quote I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. People who genuinely have specialized knowledge which allows them to acquire wealth are like people who own a money tree. And people with money trees aren't in the habit of giving them away. No, they apply their knowledge and run their system until it is no longer new / profitable. Once everyone else has figured it out and it is no longer producing the big returns that is was to begin with, then they turn around and start selling training/books/workshops/seminars on how they made all of their millions - conveniently omitting the fact that the system they are selling simply isn't capable of producing like it did historically. If someone is offering to sell you a money tree, you can be virtually certain it's a dead one. 1
Duncan Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 I was just reading in 4 Nephi about how after the visit of Jesus it all came crashing down-pride and "costly apparel" I thought about that phrase before, "costly apparel" To me costly apparel isn't the same as Bill Gates, basically if something is costly it basically means you can't afford it. So, why buy stuff you can't afford? I heard a phrase once, "don't buy stuff you don't need with money you don't have to impress people that you don't even like" and it doesn't even have to be clothing , it could be trips, cars, etc. it's keeping up with the Joneses.
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Calm said: Can someone explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. “Wealth is the great equalizer. It gives you freedom, security, and peace of mind. It allows you to do and be what you want, to support worthy causes and help those closest to you. It enables you to follow your dreams, to spend your life the way you choose.” The slogan that goes with this idea is “Liberty through Wealth” and is in the context of liberty in America. I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. https://investmentu.com/the-great-american-wealth-project-review/ Please keep personalities out of it and just deal with the ideas please, not who is promoting them. I want to understand the reasoning, not condemn it...once that is achieved, people can do what they want as far as I am concerned with the board rules, but avoid details for several pages at least please. In the context of what Rob was saying I think he meant wealth makes you equal to any task you want to accomplish, in a worldly sense. Following that comment he listed the kinds of things any person could do with money. Reminded me of what Satan was depicted as saying "You can buy anything in this world with money". Not a true statement, literallly, but it will buy most of what people want and want to have in this world.
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 Wealth gives certain kinds of freedom. Most of us know people who are little better than serfs or even slaves in relation to their employers because missing one paycheck is an amazing threat to them. Our healthcare system is designed to make sure people work as health care is almost a protection racket run by employers. Some can make enough money independently to escape but not many. The wealth gap is growing more and more concerning. While we have better “stuff” than even before in terms of electronics and much of it is accessible to everyone few have a feeling of security and history shows that huge wealth gaps between the wealthy and the average citizen usually lead to revolution or economic collapse. Add in that we are starting to obsolete jobs more and more through automation and we will need to re-examine our economic model soon. What do you do when full employment isn’t realistic because fewer can do work more easily than many can? In the short term the boomer generation retiring will put some power back in the hands of employees as the work force is due to contract. We live in interesting times. As to this specifically it is probably garbage. Beware the marketed advice of successful people. They do not need or seek company. Any investment that needs to advertise is probably garbage that will eat you alive in fees from the person recouping the cost of advertising. 2
3DOP Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Calm said: Can someone explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. “Wealth is the great equalizer. It gives you freedom, security, and peace of mind. It allows you to do and be what you want, to support worthy causes and help those closest to you. It enables you to follow your dreams, to spend your life the way you choose.” The slogan that goes with this idea is “Liberty through Wealth” and is in the context of liberty in America. I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. https://investmentu.com/the-great-american-wealth-project-review/ Please keep personalities out of it and just deal with the ideas please, not who is promoting them. I want to understand the reasoning, not condemn it...once that is achieved, people can do what they want as far as I am concerned with the board rules, but avoid details for several pages at least please. I can NOT explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. I wonder why there is an appeal being made to wealth as an "equalizer". I am against pursuing equality corporately and individually. I think it is a silly goal. "Things different are not equal", and we are all different. I wish I could remember who said that. It was a Jewish MP that was ordinarily opposed and contemporary with Gladstone. Ahhh. Thanks to asking my good wife...Disraeli, first name Benjamin. St. Francis of Assisi found poverty to be liberating, when he rid himself of wealth. Many live in poverty, but unlike St. Francis, covet the wealthy. There is no virtue in being materially poor. Christ said we must be poor "in spirit". If we could not be satisfied except we be wealthy, or at least economically "equal", it would be a grave difficulty. Only by being poor in spirit, whether we have wealth or not, can we be free. Anything else is indeed a miserable slavery. God's children are wealthy in every way that matters. Most of us today live in circumstances and in conditions that might be considered to be lavishly wealthy only 500 years ago. Would anybody reading this post that wants economic freedom and comfort, trade places with King Henry VIII? The material comforts accessible to almost all of us who are not drug addicts or abandoned mentally impaired souls, is far beyond anything imaginable to the kings and queens of 500 years ago. Is that not good enough? It should be. There is a reason that one of the Ten Commandments deals with coveting the goods of our neighbors. If an air conditioned apartment would have been considered luxurious in the days of Henry VIII, why does it not satisfy today? It is because, I would propose, our desires for greater wealth can become insatiable, and may only be countered by the Gospel admonition recommending that we strive to become "poor in spirit." Jesus said that His "meat is to do the will of Him who sent me". I fail time and again to forsake my own will for the will of Him to whom I belong. My life is a miserable slavery to myself, until with great hope, I might become free to forsake my own desires. I am weary of spending my life the way I choose. I do not choose what is good for me. I do not choose good for those I love. I do not choose what is good for my neighbor. In choosing what I want, I miss the good will of God. The supreme good. Christians should hope fervently to become habituated to denying their own desires, as did our Blessed Lord, who did EVERYTHING to bring glory to His Father, and to redeem those who had alienated themselves to His Father, with utter and perfect liberty. It is the most wonderful paradox, that by dying to self we live in God, and God's Son showed us the way if we will take it. Edited January 31, 2020 by 3DOP 3
CV75 Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 7 hours ago, Calm said: Can someone explain how equality is achieved when only some people become wealthy. “Wealth is the great equalizer. It gives you freedom, security, and peace of mind. It allows you to do and be what you want, to support worthy causes and help those closest to you. It enables you to follow your dreams, to spend your life the way you choose.” The slogan that goes with this idea is “Liberty through Wealth” and is in the context of liberty in America. I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. https://investmentu.com/the-great-american-wealth-project-review/ Please keep personalities out of it and just deal with the ideas please, not who is promoting them. I want to understand the reasoning, not condemn it...once that is achieved, people can do what they want as far as I am concerned with the board rules, but avoid details for several pages at least please. I think D&C 104 speaks to a prosperity system in this way: ("But it must needs be done in mine own away; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to provide for my saints, that the bpoor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made low."). I take this to mean that when the rich use their wealth humbly in the Lord's way, the poor also become rich humbly in the Lord's way. As they do so, their agency is expanded. I do not see such liberty operating in a segregated way, but reaching out to invite all to come and partake on the right terms. I think extrapolating this to national identity, economics and politics is as difficult as applying it to a faith community, due to human nature (for example, D&C 101: 6-8). 2
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 In the Great Depression, poverty was the great equalizer. No need to be ashamed of being poor. Everyone was poor. Since I didn't grow up then, I have always felt that education was the great equalizer. It was cheap and readily available to anyone wanting it and willing to work hard at his studies. A well-educated janitor or stevedore (Eric Hoffer) could think and talk as meaningfully as the PhDs. A degree was meaningless, and one could always find a simple job which could sustain him (rent, food). That is no longer possible. Education is too expensive, and rents are too high. Now one must have wealth to live the life he chooses. La dolce vita. 2
katherine the great Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 12 hours ago, Calm said: I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it O'Reilly and Green are simply trying to equalize their own wealth by taking some of yours. 🤷♀️ 1
mfbukowski Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 13 hours ago, Calm said: I can see the idea of wealth giving an individual personal freedom of choice, but any sort of institutional freedom/liberty for all in the country...not seeing it How many people are not on the streets because they work fo a rich guy/corporation? Does having a job give institutional freedom / liberty to anyone? What if tomorrow all employees of corporations and rich people lost their jobs.? Would the quality of life increase or decrease in the country? Could Henry Ford have made all those cars by himself in his garage? Or did he need employees?
mfbukowski Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 13 hours ago, Calm said: I am getting ads to order the book, etc. but at this point don’t even see the logic behind linking “equality” and “wealth” through specialized knowledge only available to some. It's available to anyone that wants to get the education. Honestly I'm not understanding your questions.
Calm Posted February 1, 2020 Author Posted February 1, 2020 1 hour ago, katherine the great said: O'Reilly and Green are simply trying to equalize their own wealth by taking some of yours. 🤷♀️ Save this for the third page, please. No personalities yet.
bsjkki Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 I looked at the page and just saw someone shilling their book in order to create wealth for themselves. They may have some good tips or tricks but it's not much different than someone else's baby steps to financial security. They are probably actually selling some good ideas that may help others gain wealth. 15 hours ago, Calm said: Wealth is the great equalizer. It gives you freedom, security, and peace of mind. It allows you to do and be what you want, to support worthy causes and help those closest to you. It enables you to follow your dreams, to spend your life the way you choose.” I don't view this concept negatively. My daughter is 24 and maxes out her retirement already because she wants to retire when she is 50. She is scrimping and saving now so one day she may not be living paycheck to paycheck. Some wealth does give you freedom..to quit your job with the dumb boss or the bad health insurance. If you have savings (wealth) you are free to leave or start your own company. If you pay off your mortgage, you may not need to work so hard to make it day to day. My in-laws payed off their modest house, don't have much but are able to make each month on social security because they have no debt. The baby steps guy always talks about when debt is payed off, you will be free to give generously. Wealth does free you from debt and financial bondage. I don't view this saying as much different from what we are taught (Provident Living) or the One for the Money advice. Live within your means, pay off debt, save for a rainy day and if you have the money to invest, do it wisely. But, the people I know that have become VERY wealthy usually seem to take a big risk that pays off for them. Money doesn't buy happiness but the one thing it does is take the worry about money away. 2
bsjkki Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Education is too expensive, and rents are too high True! But, please don't have the government give more money to students...the schools will then just raise their tuition again and it won't actually help the situation. The schools could not charge so much if more market forces were engaged. That's the problem with healthcare too. The middle man ends up enabling rapid pricing increases. Where I live they are turning anti-development while we have 2.5 percent unemployment rate. More people, more jobs but fewer apartments. How is that going to help rent go down? 4
mfbukowski Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: ...and rents are too high And so how do we fix that? Los Angeles has very strong rent control at I can tell you stories about that many folks would not believe. As a result there is just no incentive for anyone to build housing. Now we have a housing shortage and a horrible homeless problem. If we tax the "wealthy" they will simply leave the state as many are doing and that just makes the problem worse. You probably know better than I do about how many are moving to Utah, from California, and that makes Utah prices go up. One can take one's money to Texas and buy houses that will give an 8% rental return, with little risk, helping some people to retire who otherwise would have to be working through their 70's until they physically can work no more and then must go on public assistance. Who is to pay for it all, except the "wealthy"? And who is that? In Los Angeles the MEDIAN house price is now $717,000! That means that half of the home owners who own their houses free and clear, are very close to being millionaires, even if they own nothing but their own home. One could sell one's home and move to Texas and buy three rental houses or possibly four, with that kind of money, free and clear. With an 8% return. And who would blame them for doing that? The problem is historical inflation. Everyone is now wealthy by those standards. One might have bought those houses at $30,000 or $40,000 or 50 years ago and now that is what they are worth. THAT is what is different and what has caused this chaos. Edited February 1, 2020 by mfbukowski Error in estimation of historical value of the dollar
Robert F. Smith Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 2 hours ago, mfbukowski said: .................................. You probably know better than I do about how many are moving to Utah, from California, and that makes Utah prices go up. .................................. The standard of living here is still quite reasonable compared to Calif. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 2 hours ago, bsjkki said: True! But, please don't have the government give more money to students...the schools will then just raise their tuition again and it won't actually help the situation. The schools could not charge so much if more market forces were engaged. That's the problem with healthcare too. The middle man ends up enabling rapid pricing increases. Where I live they are turning anti-development while we have 2.5 percent unemployment rate. More people, more jobs but fewer apartments. How is that going to help rent go down? Only the wealthy can afford to get an education now. The Zoramites are running everything, and they control gov't. So no likelihood of change. We need to make a communal effort, just like the Jews.
bsjkki Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Only the wealthy can afford to get an education now. The Zoramites are running everything, and they control gov't. So no likelihood of change. We need to make a communal effort, just like the Jews. I don’t believe this. There are state schools and community colleges that are affordable. Pell grants still cover tuition at many schools for the poorest. With planning, students can still go to school. For many, some school debt is manageable. Institutions and borrowers need to practice wisdom. I go to church with med students who leave school with $300000 in school debt and they all make choices on how to tackle that debt. None of them are wealthy now but many are wealthy after they leave my ward...even with the debt. Edited February 1, 2020 by bsjkki
bsjkki Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 I have a good friend who made it into MIT. He came from a middle class family. No scholarship and no grants. He did make it through, with a lot of debt. He graduated and just bought a house in Boston. The debt was worth it. His first 4 years after school he lived with roommates and payed down his school loans. We live in an amazing country with incredible opportunities. It takes hard work, financial planning and wisdom and an expectation that you must work hard and make good choices. It takes years of this to get ahead. Hasn’t it always been this way?
Meadowchik Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 7 minutes ago, bsjkki said: Hasn’t it always been this way? No, it hasn't.
bsjkki Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: No, it hasn't. ? This is how it was for me, my parents and grandparents. My mom lived with her grandmother to go to college. First generation. My dad didn’t go. With my ancestors, college wasn’t even close to being possible. But, through hard work they forged a middle class life. Are you saying, in the past, it didn’t take years of hard work to get ahead? School or not, my family doesn’t have that pedigree. *i will admit there have been many times in human history that working hard did not improve one’s status. Edited February 1, 2020 by bsjkki 1
Meadowchik Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 30 minutes ago, bsjkki said: ? This is how it was for me, my parents and grandparents. My mom lived with her grandmother to go to college. First generation. My dad didn’t go. With my ancestors, college wasn’t even close to being possible. But, through hard work they forged a middle class life. Are you saying, in the past, it didn’t take years of hard work to get ahead? School or not, my family doesn’t have that pedigree. I'm saying that hard work, planning, and good decisions can have good results for some people, but those elements don't always have good results for all people, not now or in the past. And some people are born ahead and are given money to burn, loopholes when they fail, and coverage for their bad decisions so they don't have to live with the consequences of their actions. Also, some people are simply lucky while others aren't.
bsjkki Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 All that is true. It’s the ‘all’s and always’ issue. Do you not believe some people should be wealthier than others? The real question is if our society provides opportunity. I believe it does. 1
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