Wall Street Journal Opinion Piece: If You're an Atheist, Lie to Your Kids

[mfbukowski]

On 1/31/2020 at 9:49 AM, Ahab said:

More like different opinions of what semantic differences are.

You are funny

Semantic differences about semantic differences.

 

[Bernard Gui]

If you are interested in reading a funny, satirical, and insightful fantasy novel about religion/atheism, may I suggest Terry Pratchett’s Small Gods?

https://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/books/small-gods/

Edited February 2, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

And yet, the study cited depicts the exact opposite of your projection of atheism. Atheism leads young people into despair. Should we ignore the study or be open to its findings. 

It is only one study, but I suspect there are others with the same findings. I also think that studies are not conclusive and there are always additional things to discover. However, it should give one pause before concluding that religion is the boogeyman and source of all evil that appears to be the conclusion of many public universities.

My comment was only directed to your saying that atheists don't value life. I'll have to read the findings you mention here.

[Joshua Valentine]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:49 AM, smac97 said:

Only as long as you don't think about them too hard.

Only as long as you don't encounter a difficult turn in life (like death of a loved one).

From the article:

From Daniel Peterson's "What Difference Does It Make" piece:

The whole article is worth a read.

Yes, I think it is.  I think "apatheism" described how most self-described atheists and agnostics avoid the nihilism inherent in those philosophies.  

Not really.

And that's certainly not the case for the Restored Gospel.  It is a message of overhwelming hope and meaning and redemption.  I am grateful for it every day.

• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9)
• "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." (2 Tim. 4:7-8)
• "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"  (1 Cor. 15:54-55)
• "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  (John 16:33)
• "Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20).

There is nothing "nihilistic" about these.

Thanks,

-Smac

In these statements, no. But there does seem to be potential for meaninglessness in the eternal round of LDS cosmology.

[Meadowchik]

40 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

In these statements, no. But there does seem to be potential for meaninglessness in the eternal round of LDS cosmology.

Yes, I think that it's possible to let too many relationships and opportunities remain delayed "until the next life" in favour of the the LDS plan laid before us now. Add onto that a stratified eternal caste system, and  plans and purposes of the eternities already laid out for us, and it to some it may appear meaningless indeed.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Joshua Valentine said:

In these statements, no. But there does seem to be potential for meaninglessness in the eternal round of LDS cosmology.

I don't think so.  But I'm willing to listen to what you have to say.

Latter-day Saint cosmology/soteriology/eschatology posits that virtually everyone will receive a kingdom of glory, the lowest of which has a glory which "surpasses all understanding."  (D&C 76:88)

Thanks,

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't think so.  But I'm willing to listen to what you have to say.

Latter-day Saint cosmology/soteriology/eschatology posits that virtually everyone will receive a kingdom of glory, the lowest of which has a glory which "surpasses all understanding."  (D&C 76:88)

Thanks,

-Smac

We need to say this over and over and over again. People just are not getting it.

How you could be LDS and not understand that is beyond me. 

" Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ."

[smac97]

1 minute ago, mfbukowski said:

We need to say this over and over and over again. People just are not getting it.

How you could be LDS and not understand that is beyond me. 

"Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ."

I agree with this, but I'm not sure how it is reponsive to Joshua's claim of "meaninglessness" in Latter-day Saint cosmology.  What am I missing?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes, I think that it's possible to let too many relationships and opportunities remain delayed "until the next life" in favour of the the LDS plan laid before us now. Add onto that a stratified eternal caste system, and  plans and purposes of the eternities already laid out for us, and it to some it may appear meaningless indeed.

I'd like to better understand what it is you are saying here.  Could you elaborate a bit?

Thanks

-Smac

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I agree with this, but I'm not sure how it is reponsive to Joshua's claim of "meaninglessness" in Latter-day Saint cosmology.  What am I missing?

Thanks,

-Smac

It wasn't intended to be responsive to that.

It was intended to say what it said. It seems to me from other discussions that most LDS folks don't understand that at all. And to me it seems totally obvious.

Just believing we are all are all "saved" without effort does not give life meaning. Why bother or give any effort?

On the other hand working for exaltation is an entirely different affair, unless one confuses salvation with exaltation.

I personally want to be as much like God /Christ as I can be.  It gives me great meaning in life, but as I said earlier it is totally contingent upon having a testimony that God exists and knowing that in your heart, and knowing that we have to overcome the world.

Without that yes life would be meaningless.

So I can see how someone who did not have that testimony that God exists and who has not interacted with him daily, would find such an effort meaningless.

Of course that does not imply that they personally have no meaning in their lives. For some perhaps being anti- LDS gives their life purpose and meaning.

We all have to save someone. That's what the critics are doing here. They're trying to save us from our own stupidity.

Good for them. They have purpose in their life.

Edited February 3, 2020 by mfbukowski

[RevTestament]

51 minutes ago, Joshua Valentine said:

In these statements, no. But there does seem to be potential for meaninglessness in the eternal round of LDS cosmology.

I'm curious how this is so? What meaning is there in being a created pawn? Your only hope is not  to get the punishment you deserve. Woopee.

[Kenngo1969]

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

Yes, I think that it's possible to let too many relationships and opportunities remain delayed "until the next life" in favour of the the LDS plan laid before us now. Add onto that a stratified eternal caste system, and  plans and purposes of the eternities already laid out for us, and it to some it may appear meaningless indeed.

What do you mean when you speak of "plans and purposes of the eternities already laid out for us"?  As a mortal, finite being, I have a mortal, finite, incomplete, rudimentary [shall I go on? ] understanding of these things, yes, but I highly doubt that the understanding I have now will compare in any way to the understanding that I will, perhaps, gain (indeed, that I will probably gain) in the eternities: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9-10 KJV).

As for the alleged "stratified caste system," while your mileage varies, I am sure,  the simple fact of the matter is that as much as God might want to give us, He's not going to give us anything we don't want (bearing in mind that, at least to a certain extent, "want is as want does").  If we want telestial glory, He's not going to give us terrestrial or celestial glory; if we want terrestrial glory, He's not going to give us celestial or telestial glory; and if we want celestial glory, He's not going to give us terrestrial or telestial glory.

About the only thing, really, that God cannot do is save or exalt someone against his or her will.  And just about the only reason God cannot give someone something is because he or she does not want it.  (The catch is that, mostly, this applies to the next life rather than to this one.) 

As for this life, I might want a better job, [at least some] more money, a wife and family of my own, et cetera, but all of these things, my wanting notwithstanding, are contingent, to a greater or lesser extent, on the decisions of others: A better job depends on an employer exercising his or her will in deciding to hire me, more money depends on someone with his or her hands on the purse-strings deciding that I'm worth more, a spouse and family depend on someone else deciding to spend eternity with me.  (To slightly alter Job, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord hath withheld.  Blessed be the name of the Lord." (See Job 1:21.))

And yes, there are a lot of things that are apt to be "delayed until the next life," not because a person doesn't, righteously, desire them in this life, and not because s/he's unworthy of them, and not because s/he doesn't do everything within his or her power in an attempt to bring them about, but simply because that's "the nature of the mortal beast," as it were.  Try as I might to bend the universe to my will, it only bends so far.  Yes, I do hope, given that circumstance, that I can be forgiven for hoping for good things to come (and striving to live for good things to come) in the next life.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

It wasn't intended to be responsive to that.

It was intended to say what it said. It seems to me from other discussions that most LDS folks don't understand that at all. And to me it seems totally obvious.

Just believing we are all are all "saved" without effort does not give life meaning. Why bother or give any effort?

On the other hand working for exaltation is an entirely different affair, unless one confuses salvation with exaltation.

I personally want to be as much like God /Christ as I can be.  It gives me great meaning in life, but as I said earlier it is totally contingent upon having a testimony that God exists and knowing that in your heart, and knowing that we have to overcome the world.

Without that yes life would be meaningless.

So I can see how someone who did not have that testimony that God exists and who has not interacted with him daily, would find such an effort meaningless.

Of course that does not imply that they personally have no meaning in their lives. For some perhaps being anti- LDS gives their life purpose and meaning.

We all have to save someone. That's what the critics are doing here. They're trying to save us from our own stupidity.

Good for them. They have purpose in their life.

Do you believe that if you're not exalted you'll be stagnant, or like the proverbial statement on this board sometimes, playing a harp all day?

[MiserereNobis]

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

The fact that there is an acknowledgement of gods has value because they evidence a goal, a direction to go. What does an atheist have to guide her?

But the point in Buddhism is NOT to follow the gods, not to become a god, not to have anything to do with the gods. As I stated before, the Buddha actually said that the gods are in a worse position than we are. The gods don't give value to life. On the contrary, a belief and devotion to the gods is actually contrary to Buddhism. It is a distraction from what the Buddha taught.

[Meadowchik]

5 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

We all have to save someone. That's what the critics are doing here. They're trying to save us from our own stupidity.

Good for them. They have purpose in their life.

Or not just the "critics" but perhaps everyone here finds meaning and purpose in dialoguing about what they see is important to them.

It's okay if you do, too!

[Meadowchik]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

What do you mean when you speak of "plans and purposes of the eternities already laid out for us"?  As a mortal, finite being, I have a mortal, finite, incomplete, rudimentary [shall I go on? ] understanding of these things, yes, but I highly doubt that the understanding I have now will compare in any way to the understanding that I will, perhaps, gain (indeed, that I will probably gain) in the eternities: "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9-10 KJV).

Well as the scripture says, that eternal future is God's plan, not one's own. To some that can seem ultimately null of meaning.

Personally, my eternity imaginings include catching moments to spend zooming around the universe and peering into creation; I supposed God would grant some autonomy. But that's just my supposition.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Do you believe that if you're not exalted you'll be stagnant, or like the proverbial statement on this board sometimes, playing a harp all day?

That's what all of Christianity believes except us anyway.  Apparently it is enough for them.

I suppose if what I learned as a child and a Catholic that the Beatific Vision (seeing God face to face) as the highest we can go is true, I will find all the joy I am capable of right there.  The belief is that seeing Him and worshiping him in that vision is the highest we can obtain.

But you are misunderstanding.   It is the BELIEF that gives us purpose and meaning in our lives, not what "actually happens" because that is and always will be "unknowable" in a scientific sense.  I don't care what "actually happens" at all because it is unknowable- but it is the BELIEF that the Person I know  with psychological certainty through testimony, is a good and intelligent Being who watches out and in fact helps me daily.   That person has my best interests at heart- that is a certainty to me.  Whatever it is, it will be fine with me, but the idea that I can be LIKE that person is what drives me to goodness- all of course according to my understanding of what that all means and 

People die for the abstract idea of "Freedom" all the time and die "for their country" and those IDEAS give them purpose and meaning. 

They don't allow themselves to question if it is a rational belief or decision. 

They volunteer to allow people to try to kill them in far distant lands because they have been told that it is necessary for those abstract ideas, and volunteering for those values gives them purpose and meaning in their lives.  Sorry but you can see my thoughts about Viet Nam are still strong with me.  Now we can go to the heart of Ho Chi Minh city as tourists and buy souvenirs and wonder if it was all worth it.  For what?

Why is it wrong to kill people for fun?  How do we know that?  In our hearts- there is no "rational" way of proving it "wrong".

How do we know what gives us purpose in life?  By living that life and being willing to die for it.  That is the only way. 

Others I know well volunteered for Viet Nam and defend that decision today and they believe they did a valuable service for their country and it has given them a sense that they did something very important.   Good for them!  We need those feelings!

 

[mfbukowski]

46 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Or not just the "critics" but perhaps everyone here finds meaning and purpose in dialoguing about what they see is important to them.

It's okay if you do, too!

Thanks for your permission. 

 

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Well as the scripture says, that eternal future is God's plan, not one's own. To some that can seem ultimately null of meaning.

Personally, my eternity imaginings include catching moments to spend zooming around the universe and peering into creation; I supposed God would grant some autonomy. But that's just my supposition.

Supposition?  It cannot be refuted or proven.  It's yours to choose to believe or not.  It it gives you purpose, who is to tell you that is wrong?

It is also up to you to decide if God's plan is null of meaning.   I don't even know what that means, but if it is your belief, I have no basis for disagreeing.

To disagree I would have to argue that it does not give me meaning in my life, and your perfectly position is as valid and irrefutable as mine.

That is the whole point here.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Supposition?  It cannot be refuted or proven.  It's yours to choose to believe or not.  It it gives you purpose, who is to tell you that is wrong?

It is also up to you to decide if God's plan is null of meaning.   I don't even know what that means, but if it is your belief, I have no basis for disagreeing.

To disagree I would have to argue that it does not give me meaning in my life, and your perfectly position is as valid and irrefutable as mine.

That is the whole point here.

The point was that while some may believe atheism is necessarily nihilistic, similarly-applied reasoning can also conclude that theisms are nihilistic.

So I'd say a clearer statement of the "whole point here," or atleast an important one--so as to not attempt to be the gatekeeper of meaning here--is to be more careful about projecting one's own reasoning and motivations onto others' beliefs.

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

The point was that while some may believe atheism is necessarily nihilistic, similarly-applied reasoning can also conclude that theisms are nihilistic.

I hope I am not included in the “some”. If so, you have misunderstood me. Both atheism and theism are demonstrably not “necessarily” nihilistic.  I am yet to meet a true nihilist, but I have met many atheists and theists.

Edited February 3, 2020 by pogi

[Ahab]

On 1/31/2020 at 11:03 PM, Meadowchik said:

Nope, that's not what God means when people use the term atheism.

Ordinarily, maybe not, but words have many definitions even if people are not using all of them when they use a particular word.  When I say I believe in God, for example, I'm saying I believe in particular definition of God, the definition I have in  my mind when I am using that word.  A definition of God that is valid and can be found by using a common dictionary.  Likewise when you use the word theism or atheism or God you are using a particular definition of those words.a definition that is probably valid and can also be found by using a common dictionary.  So you're not required to use the same definition of those words that I may be using, and you're not required to agree with me regardless of which definition I may be using.  But I can be telling the truth when I say you do believe in some particular version or definition of God.  It could be that I'm simply using a definition of a word that you are not using, but which is still a valid definition of that word.

On 1/31/2020 at 11:03 PM, Meadowchik said:

From here, it looks like you are willing to make God very, very small--smaller and less significant than is understood--in order to make theism universal or almost so. 

I'm not making God small.  Heh heh, that would be rather preposterous of me if I were to try to do that, as if I thought my words would have the power to change what God actually is  This is simply an argument about the definition of words and how they can be used in more than one way because words have many definitions.  So when you say you don't believe in God you are using a particular definition of God and saying you don't believe in that version of God.  There are other ways you could use the word, though, and you would believe in that version or definition of God.  It's inescapable, because the word God is simply used to refer to something or some kind of being that is the most supreme kind of thing or kind of being, and you do believe something or someone is more supreme, even if you might not use the word God to refer to that thing or person.

[Ahab]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

You are funny

Semantic differences about semantic differences.

 

Different understandings of what semantic differences are.  Close but not quite the same thing.

[mfbukowski]

12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Different understandings of what semantic differences are.  Close but not quite the same thing.

Unfortunately "understandings" can only be described semantically.

[The Nehor]

On 2/2/2020 at 10:08 AM, Storm Rider said:

As a religion, Buddhism has guiding principles to direct one's path. The fact that there is an acknowledgement of gods has value because they evidence a goal, a direction to go. What does an atheist have to guide her? Why should an atheist trust anyone when the self is their ultimate expression of all things. There is not "the" path, but all paths and all are acceptable if the one chooses to follow them. 

Religions, generally, create direction for a higher self. I have talked to a few Russians while living in the UAE that were atheists. I came to learn from them of the utter "aloneness" of atheism from them. They were only a few and may not be representative of atheism as a whole, but their comments made an impact on me. Granted, these were atheists that came to find God.

Probably has more to do with being Russian.