Wall Street Journal Opinion Piece: If You're an Atheist, Lie to Your Kids

[smac97]

Hmm: 

Quote

Don’t Believe in God? Lie to Your Children
The alternative is to tell them they’re simply going to die and turn to dust.

By Erica Komisar
Dec. 5, 2019 7:20 pm ET

Not really comfortable with this.

Quote

As a therapist, I’m often asked to explain why depression and anxiety are so common among children and adolescents. One of the most important explanations—and perhaps the most neglected—is declining interest in religion. This cultural shift already has proved disastrous for millions of vulnerable young people.

I have thought about this possibility, but it's interesting to see it supported by data.

Quote

A 2018 study in the American Journal of Epidemiology examined how being raised in a family with religious or spiritual beliefs affects mental health. Harvard researchers had examined religious involvement within a longitudinal data set of approximately 5,000 people, with controls for socio-demographic characteristics and maternal health.

The result? Children or teens who reported attending a religious service at least once per week scored higher on psychological well-being measurements and had lower risks of mental illness. Weekly attendance was associated with higher rates of volunteering, a sense of mission, forgiveness, and lower probabilities of drug use and early sexual initiation. Pity then that the U.S. has seen a 20% decrease in attendance at formal religious services in the past 20 years, according to a Gallup report earlier this year. In 2018 the American Family Survey showed that nearly half of adults under 30 do not identify with any religion.

Wow.  That's a big shift.

Quote

Nihilism is fertilizer for anxiety and depression, and being “realistic” is overrated. The belief in God—in a protective and guiding figure to rely on when times are tough—is one of the best kinds of support for kids in an increasingly pessimistic world. That’s only one reason, from a purely mental-health perspective, to pass down a faith tradition.

I think this is quite correct.

I also think that kids forsaking religious belief in their childhood/teens are forsaking an important coping mechanism.  For me, this becomes particularly difficult to watch happen in Latter-day Saint homes.  I know of a situation where a teenager has grown up with all of the perqs and benefits of Gospel observance.  Stable and happy family.  The teen has had a solid upbringing, done well in school, is socially popular, etc.  He's had no meaningful experience with difficulties and challenges in life.  Yet.  But a few months back he announced to his parents, without explanation, that he does not believe in God and is leaving the Church.  

Well, that's his choice.  But soon he'll be moving out of his parents' home, and into the "real world."  So when he starts having substantial exposure to scenarios "when times are tough," he will not have a "faith tradition" to lean on (unless he has a meaningful change of heart).

Quote

I am often asked by parents, “How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or heaven?” My answer is always the same: “Lie.” The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope.

Not sure "lie" is the best solution here.  In a choice between "Atheism and Nihilism" or "Atheism and Lies," isn't there a "Door Number Three"?  

How about avoiding both the nihilism and the lies and choose . . . actual faith?  "Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend."  (Mosiah 4:9)

That seems like the best option.

Quote

I also am frequently asked about how parents can instill gratitude and empathy in their children. These virtues are inherent in most religions. The concept of tikkun olam, or healing the world, is one of the pillars of my Jewish faith. In accordance with this belief, we expect our children to perform community service in our synagogue and in the community at large. As they grow older, young Jews take independent responsibility for this sacred activity. One of my sons cooks for our temple’s homeless shelter. The other volunteers at a prison, while my daughter helps out at an animal shelter.

Such values can be found among countless other religious groups. It’s rare to find a faith that doesn’t encourage gratitude as an antidote to entitlement or empathy for anyone who needs nurturing. These are the building blocks of strong character. They are also protective against depression and anxiety.

Yep.  Service to others is, I think, a fundamental ingredient in fostering faith and a healthy outlook on life.  "{W}hen ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."  (Mosiah 2:17)

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In an individualistic, narcissistic and lonely society, religion provides children a rare opportunity for natural community. My rabbi always says that being Jewish is not only about ethnic identity and bagels and lox: It’s about community. The idea that hundreds of people can gather together and sing joyful prayers as a collective is a buffer against the emptiness of modern culture. It’s more necessary than ever in a world where teens can have hundreds of virtual friends and few real ones, where parents are often too distracted physically or emotionally to soothe their children’s distress.

This is really solid.  The value of "community" is very significant.  Turning from that community is unfortunate.

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Religion or spiritual practices can teach children mindfulness, a sense of physical and emotional presence necessary for mental health. No matter how active my children were when they were young, they knew when they entered our temple for services they had to calm their bodies and relax their minds. Though they complained when they were kids, and still complain at times as adolescents, they have developed the ability to calm themselves when overwhelmed.

Yep.

Can atheist/agnosticism provide these benefits?  I don't think so.

Quote

Today the U.S. is a competitive, scary and stressful place that idealizes perfectionism, materialism, selfishness and virtual rather than real human connection. Religion is the best bulwark against that kind of society. Spiritual belief and practice reinforce collective kindness, empathy, gratitude and real connection. Whether children choose to continue to practice as adults is something parents cannot control. But that spiritual or religious center will benefit them their entire lives.

Ms. Komisar is a psychoanalyst and author of “Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters.”

Wow.  I don't normally turn to the Wall Street Journal for validation of substantive and foundational truths.  

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 30, 2020 by smac97

[Tacenda]

40 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Hmm: 

Not really comfortable with this.

I have thought about this possibility, but it's interesting to see it supported by data.

Wow.  That's a big shift.

I think this is quite correct.

I also think that kids forsaking religious belief in their childhood/teens are forsaking an important coping mechanism.  For me, this becomes particularly difficult to watch happen in Latter-day Saint homes.  I know of a situation where a teenager has grown up with all of the perqs and benefits of Gospel observance.  Stable and happy family.  The teen has had a solid upbringing, done well in school, is socially popular, etc.  He's had no meaningful experience with difficulties and challenges in life.  Yet.  But a few months back he announced to his parents, without explanation, that he does not believe in God and is leaving the Church.  

Well, that's his choice.  But soon he'll be moving out of his parents' home, and into the "real world."  So when he starts having substantial exposure to scenarios "when times are tough," he will not have a "faith tradition" to lean on (unless he has a meaningful change of heart).

Not sure "lie" is the best solution here.  In a choice between "Atheism and Nihilism" or "Atheism and Lies," isn't there a "Door Number Three"?  

How about avoiding both the nihilism and the lies and choose . . . actual faith?  "Believe in God; believe that he is, and that he created all things, both in heaven and in earth; believe that he has all wisdom, and all power, both in heaven and in earth; believe that man doth not comprehend all the things which the Lord can comprehend."  (Mosiah 4:9)

That seems like the best option.

Yep.  Service to others is, I think, a fundamental ingredient in fostering faith and a healthy outlook on life.  "{W}hen ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God."  (Mosiah 2:17)

This is really solid.  The value of "community" is very significant.  Turning from that community is unfortunate.

Yep.

Can atheist/agnosticism provide these benefits?  I don't think so.

Wow.  I don't normally turn to the Wall Street Journal for validation of substantive and foundational truths.  

Thoughts?

Thanks,

-Smac

I disagree wholeheartedly with your summation that atheist or agnostics can't provide or get the benefits you mention. Not that I am atheist, but I believe atheists don't shut the door completely on there being zero chance of there being a God. They possibly see the wrong done in the name of God. 

ETA: I will do some searching and see if this is isolated data.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Tacenda

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Disagree with what?  Lying to your kids about your belief they will be decomposing bodies if they die?  What do you suggest an atheist tell their kids about death?

Or with the claims atheism may be contributing to depression, etc in children?  If so, Based on what?

Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

Based on what?

I added to my quote, hope that helps.

[Calm]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I added to my quote, hope that helps.

Can you show the data that demonstrates this please as just as the article described a study that showed benefits associated with church membership and religious belief.

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Disagree with what?  Lying to your kids about your belief they will be decomposing bodies if they did?  What do you suggest an atheist tell their kids about death?

Or with the claims atheism may be contributing to depression, etc in children?  If so, Based on what?

I don't think all atheists say things like that at all. I believe they are moral people and have a heart. Here's one study that came up in my google search. I will edit with more...also..I believe there is a lot of harm that super religious parents or orthodoxy can cause as well, in fact, I'd say it's 50/50 that harm can go both ways. I've yet to read the whole article.

https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~ara/Manuscripts/Norenzayan_Behaviour_DoesReligionMakePeopleMoral.pdf

Edited January 30, 2020 by Tacenda

[Jeanne]

Always be honest with your kids. 

[Meadowchik]

-Neither atheism nor agnosticism are equivalent to nihilism.

-Societies previously religious are increasingly becoming more secular, and we are by no means in a settled state. I would say that in such transition periods, difficulty is to be expected.

-I do think that kindness itself can stand alone without religion as a foundation, and that is can foster community and bonding.

-A settled or certain afterlife and cosmology can also seem nihilistic at some point, and I'd say people can find meaning in mortality and hope regarding the unknown, and both without believing in God.

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I disagree wholeheartedly with your summation that atheist or agnostics can't provide or get the benefits you mention.

Okay, I'll amend my previous statement: 

Can atheist/agnosticism provide these benefits?  I don't think so.  Not nearly as well as religious observance can.  There is a nihilism inherent in atheism (and, to an extent, agnosticism) that is pretty hard to sidestep.  That's a point at the core of the article.  That nihilism is hard on kids, so the therapist tells atheists to lie to their kids.  As a means of helping those kids avoid (or at least postpone) facing the nihilism that is necessarily and inherently a part of what atheism is.

Is that better?

Quote

Not that I am atheist, but I believe atheists don't shut the door completely on there being zero chance of there being a God.

Yes, they have.  To be atheist is to affirmatively deny the existence of God.  A person who has not "shut the door completely on ... there being a God" is perhaps properly described as agnostic.  Or perhaps agnostic theism.

Personally, I find agnosticism less nihilistic than atheist, but not by much.

Quote

They possibly see the wrong done in the name of God.

We all see that.  

Quote

ETA: I will do some searching and see if this is isolated data.

Okay.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 30, 2020 by smac97

[smac97]

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

-Neither atheism nor agnosticism are equivalent to nihilism.

I agree.  There are many forms of nihilism.  Atheism and agnosticism are two manifestations of it.

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

-Societies previously religious are increasingly becoming more secular, and we are by no means in a settled state. I would say that in such transition periods, difficulty is to be expected.

Agreed.

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

-I do think that kindness itself can stand alone without religion as a foundation, and that is can foster community and bonding.

Agreed.

But the problem of nihilism inherent in atheism and agnosticism remains, particularly when encountered by children.

9 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

-A settled or certain afterlife and cosmology can also seem nihilistic at some point, and I'd say people can find meaning in mortality and hope regarding the unknown, and both without believing in God.

I don't know what this means.  Nihilism, by definition, posits that "life is meaningless."

Again, from the article: "The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope."

Good luck explaining to a child how to find "meaning" in nihilism.  Or an adult, for that matter.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

Can you show the data that demonstrates this please as just as the article described a study that showed benefits associated with church membership and religious belief.

Daniel Peterson gave an excellent presentationon this theme: What Difference Does It Make

In this piece he marshals considerable evidence of the benefits that accrue from religious faith/observance, and the corollary adverse effects of abandoning faith.

See also here: How religious faith benefits society

Thanks,

-Smac

[LoudmouthMormon]

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I believe atheists don't shut the door completely on there being zero chance of there being a God.

You can also find self-proclaimed vegans who eat meat.  Doesn't change the definition, it just means people are applying the terms incorrectly.

Edited January 30, 2020 by LoudmouthMormon

[Meadowchik]

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I agree.  There are many forms of nihilism.  Atheism and agnosticism are two manifestations of it.

Agreed.

Agreed.

But the problem of nihilism inherent in atheism and agnosticism remains, particularly when encountered by children.

I don't know what this means.  Nihilism, by definition, posits that "life is meaningless."

Again, from the article: "The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope."

Good luck explaining to a child how to find "meaning" in nihilism.  Or an adult, for that matter.

Thanks,

-Smac

Neither atheism or agnosticism necessarily result in nihilism; it is not an inherent characteristic of either. And both theism and non-belief can be nihilistic. 

[stemelbow]

I can't read the story, so there's that.  

The only summary of any study I see doesn't seem to have any bearing on atheism, agnosticism nor nihilism.  It simply asks if the child attends Church.  That doesn't say whether someone is religious or not.  Attending Church could mean any number of things, including attending non-Christian, or non-western religious services.  Also it may be that many church attenders are atheist or agnostic. 

Also there doesn't seem to be anything in the study that suggests if a sincere atheist or agnostic is better off lying to their children about their beliefs.  

There's no doubt, though, people have been turned off by organized religion.  

Edited January 30, 2020 by stemelbow

[Ahab]

I see the advice to lie as if it is advising someone to act like a believer, and of course the better option would be to be a true believer.  And the best option would be to not only believe it but to know it is true.

Better to act like a true believer instead of acting like a nonbeliever, though, for someone who just wants to give good advice to their children about what they should believe in.

[Tacenda]

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay, I'll amend my previous statement: 

Can atheist/agnosticism provide these benefits?  I don't think so.  Not nearly as well as religious observance can.  There is a nihilism inherent in atheist (and, to an extent, agnosticism) that is pretty hard to sidestep.  That's a point at the core of the article.  That nihilism is hard on kids, so the therapist tells atheists to lie to their kids.  As a means of helping those kids avoid (or at least postpone) facing the nihilism that is necessarily and inherently a part of what atheism is.

Is that better?

Yes, they have.  To be atheist is to affirmatively deny the existence of God.  A person who has not "shut the door completely on ... there being a God" is perhaps properly described as agnostic.  Or perhaps agnostic theism.

Personally, I find agnosticism less nihilistic than atheist, but not by much.

We all see that.  

Okay.

Thanks,

-Smac

I should maybe correct my statement to say afterlife vs. belief in a God. https://religionnews.com/2016/07/15/why-do-many-nones-believe-in-life-after-death/

[bluebell]

17 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Neither atheism or agnosticism necessarily result in nihilism; it is not an inherent characteristic of either. And both theism and non-belief can be nihilistic. 

Good point. I know atheists who absolutely do not believe that life is meaningless. They just don’t find meaning through religion. 

[smac97]

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

Neither atheism or agnosticism necessarily result in nihilism;

Only as long as you don't think about them too hard.

Only as long as you don't encounter a difficult turn in life (like death of a loved one).

From the article:

Quote

I am often asked by parents, “How do I talk to my child about death if I don’t believe in God or heaven?” My answer is always the same: “Lie.” The idea that you simply die and turn to dust may work for some adults, but it doesn’t help children. Belief in heaven helps them grapple with this tremendous and incomprehensible loss. In an age of broken families, distracted parents, school violence and nightmarish global-warming predictions, imagination plays a big part in children’s ability to cope.

From Daniel Peterson's "What Difference Does It Make" piece:

Quote

During my mission in Switzerland, we showed the German version of Man’s Search for Happiness so often that I think I still have the German script memorized. “Die grösste Prüfung deines Lebens,” it says at one point, “hast du am Grabe eines deiner Lieben zu bestehen.” “The greatest test of your life will be at the grave of one of your loved ones.”
...
The simple, unavoidable fact is that we all will die. And all those whom we love, and every thing that we love, will also die. All earthly relationships end in death, if not before.

When you hear the funeral bells ring, the English poet John Donne said, “send not to know for whom the bell tolls: It tolls for thee.” And, he might have added, for thy family and friends.

Nevertheless, many of us energetically (and fairly successfully) try to avoid reflecting on our mortality. “I’m not afraid to die,” Woody Allen said. “I just don’t want to be there when it happens.”

But Mr. Allen has no choice. He’ll be there, like it or not.

Every day, each of us draws nearer to the end. In the words of the unexpected Nobel laureate Bob Dylan, “He not busy being born is busy dying.”

Is this life all there is? Are all the love, hopes, attainments and talents of an individual nothing more than a random, transient and ultimately meaningless collection of neurochemical impulses?

There are, essentially, only two possible answers to this question. One is eloquently summarized by Shakespeare’s Macbeth, for whom the close of mortal life was the absolute and irrevocable end. Upon hearing of his wife’s suicide, Macbeth exclaims:

All our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out brief candle!
Life’s but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Others respond with less anger: “Apatheism” is the witty term coined for the complete indifference to great issues of faith and religion that’s fashionable in some circles.
...
Perhaps, a skeptic might say, there’s no purpose to the cosmos. That’s just the way it is. We live briefly, we die meaninglessly and then our little candle is extinguished—as all light and life ultimately will be extinguished in the vast heat-death of the universe.

But it should certainly cause us to hope for a future in which wounds are healed, deep yearnings satisfied and human potential fully realized.

The whole article is worth a read.

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

it is not an inherent characteristic of either.

Yes, I think it is.  I think "apatheism" described how most self-described atheists and agnostics avoid the nihilism inherent in those philosophies.  

3 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

And both theism and non-belief can be nihilistic. 

Not really.

And that's certainly not the case for the Restored Gospel.  It is a message of overhwelming hope and meaning and redemption.  I am grateful for it every day.

• "Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."  (1 Cor. 2:9)
• "I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing." (2 Tim. 4:7-8)
• "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"  (1 Cor. 15:54-55)
• "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."  (John 16:33)
• "Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life."  (2 Nephi 31:20).

There is nothing "nihilistic" about these.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I can't read the story, so there's that.  

I quoted pretty much all of it in the OP.

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The only summary of any study I see doesn't seem to have any bearing on atheism, agnosticism nor nihilism.  It simply asks if the child attends Church.  That doesn't say whether someone is religious or not.  Attending Church could mean any number of things, including attending non-Christian, or non-western religious services.  Also it may be that many church attenders are atheist or agnostic. 

Points raised and addressed by Daniel Peterson in his articles (for which I have provided links).

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Also there doesn't seem to be anything in the study that suggests if a sincere atheist or agnostic is better off lying to their children about their beliefs.  

I don't agree with that advice.

13 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

There's no doubt, though, people have been turned off by organized religion.  

Yes.  For a variety of reasons, not all of which are caused by "organized religion."

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I should maybe correct my statement to say afterlife vs. belief in a God. https://religionnews.com/2016/07/15/why-do-many-nones-believe-in-life-after-death/

From the article:

Quote

A 2013 survey by the conservative Christian Austin Institute for the Study of Family and Culture found that even 32 percent of the group comprising atheists, agnostics, and people of no religion claim to believe that there is life after death. Why this seeming contradiction?
...
But is someone who believes in life after death still an atheist? According to Tom Flynn, editor of Free Inquiry magazine as well as the New Encyclopedia of Unbelief, the answer depends on how you define "atheism."

“Strictly defined, an ‘atheist’ has no belief in the traditional personal deity imagined by Western religions,” he wrote in an email. “Such an atheist could believe in an impersonal supernatural realm or an afterlife, but not presided over by a god. Arguably some Buddhist conceptions of karma and reincarnation are atheistic in this sense.”

Flynn adds that a broader definition holds that an atheist has no belief “in any supernatural realm or phenomena,” which would rule out belief in an afterlife.

Seems like an exercise in having your cake and eating it, too.  "Yes, I want to avoid the nihilism inherent in atheism by hoping that, somehowe, life continues on after we die.  That we have souls.  But I don't want to be bothered with the idea that God exists, that He has a relationship with us, that He is involved in our lives, that He has given us instructions to follow, etc.  Faith in the perpetuation of life after death is fine, but faith in God is not."

Some mightly convenient hair-splitting going on.  How can a genuine atheist posit that God does not exist, but souls do?

The article continues:

Quote

Still, the connection between belief in life after death and religious dogma may be more tenuous than widely assumed.

A new study out of Australia took an in-depth look at a group of Australians of varied ethnic and religious backgrounds. Andrew Singleton, a sociologist of religion at Melbourne’s Deakin University, conducted interviews with 52 Australians aged 18-85. And the findings, published in the quarterly journal Mortality, suggest that "afterlife belief is varied, individualistic and mainly arrived at with little to no reference to orthodox religious teaching."

Hmm.  This, to me, sounds like a manifestation of the Light of Christ, an innate recognition - albeit perhaps not a perfect or complete one - of an eternal truth.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Edited January 30, 2020 by smac97

[stemelbow]

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I quoted pretty much all of it in the OP.

Points raised and addressed by Daniel Peterson in his articles (for which I have provided links).

I looked.  I don't see anything.  If you do, please help direct me.  

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't agree with that advice.

Yes.  For a variety of reasons, not all of which are caused by "organized religion."

How do you know their reasons for being turned off by organized religion?  re you saying when someone says something like "I'm turned off by organized religion because..." the because explanation may or may not be caused by organized religion?  That doesn't really seem to make much sense to me.  The reasons people are turned off is because they don't like the things organized religion teaches, it seems to me.  

12 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

From the article:

Seems like an exercise in having your cake and eating it, too.  "Yes, I want to avoid the nihilism inherent in atheism by hoping that, somehowe, life continues on after we die.  That we have souls.  But I don't want to be bothered with the idea that God exists, that He has a relationship with us, that He is involved in our lives, that He has given us instructions to follow, etc.  Faith in the perpetuation of life after death is fine, but faith in God is not."

Some mightly convenient hair-splitting going on.  How can a genuine atheist posit that God does not exist, but souls do?

The article continues:

Hmm.  This, to me, sounds like a manifestation of the Light of Christ, an innate recognition - albeit perhaps not a perfect or complete one - of an eternal truth.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Sometimes it is the terms we use that cause confusion.  When we use the term "God" we have something specific in our mind as what or who we are referring to.  Somebody else could have a different idea or definition of that word and think about something else.

Communication is key.

Those who believe our lives continue after we die agree with us on that point even if they call themselves atheists or agnostics while we call ourselves some other names.  

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

How do you know their reasons for being turned off by organized religion? 

Personal experience and study.  Some preliminary items are available here (I don't agree with all of it, but it points to some interesting trends and phenomena).

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

re you saying when someone says something like "I'm turned off by organized religion because..." the because explanation may or may not be caused by organized religion? 

I'm saying there are a lot of reasons, some of which are acknowledged, and some are not.  Some are attributable to the conduct of organized religious groups/individuals, and some are not.

6 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

That doesn't really seem to make much sense to me.  The reasons people are turned off is because they don't like the things organized religion teaches, it seems to me.  

Again, there are a lot of potential factors/reasons, not all of which are attributable to the conduct of organized religious groups/individuals.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Some mightly convenient hair-splitting going on.  How can a genuine atheist posit that God does not exist, but souls do?

Because perhaps they see no evidence that there is a higher being that acts on us for good or bad, but have a sense that life continues after death for whatever reason. 
 

I don’t see the two concepts as inherently dependent on each other. There could be a god that creates at birth and destroys at death and just as some see it as possible there is no god needed for mortal existence, that could be extrapolated to no god needed for an immortal existence if the soul is uncreated or somehow evolves into existence without outside direction. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

How can a genuine atheist posit that God does not exist, but souls do?

Because perhaps they see no evidence that there is a higher being that acts on us for good or bad, but have a sense that life continues after death for whatever reason. 

Personally, I think most folks have "a sense" of God's existence, too.  But life after death is, in some ways, nicer and more convenient to accept.

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t see the two concepts as inherently dependent on each other.

Well, it seems strange to say, in essence, "I reject the existence of God based on a lack of sufficient evidence, but I believe in life after death despite a lack of sufficient evidence."

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

There could be a god that creates at birth and destroys at death and just as some see it as possible there is no god needed for mortal existence, that could be extrapolated to no god needed for an immortal existence if the soul is uncreated or somehow evolves into existence without outside direction. 

Seems like atheists, who pride themselves on their position being derived from rational thought and evidence, would have a hard time turning around and accepting such postulations.

Moreover, these postulations seem, well, theistic.

Thanks,

-Smac