stemelbow Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 47 minutes ago, smac97 said: Personal experience and study. Some preliminary items are available here (I don't agree with all of it, but it points to some interesting trends and phenomena). I'm saying there are a lot of reasons, some of which are acknowledged, and some are not. Some are attributable to the conduct of organized religious groups/individuals, and some are not. Again, there are a lot of potential factors/reasons, not all of which are attributable to the conduct of organized religious groups/individuals. Thanks, -Smac Oh. Ok. I think I see what you are saying. You are saying some people put their concern on the conduct of organized religion, or adherents to organized religion.
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, smac97 said: Seems like atheists, who pride themselves on their position being derived from rational thought and evidence, would have a hard time turning around and accepting such postulations. Not all atheists in my experience insist their position is based purely on rational thought. Evidence that there might be an afterlife for an individual, but no God could be a some sort of visitation from a deceased loved one where there was no mention of God or perhaps they had an experience they saw as evidence for ghosts. Quote Moreover, these postulations seem, well, theistic. Given Western culture about the supernatural is framed in a structure that depends on God existing, it is not surprising that it would seem theistic, imo. Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm 3
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 4 hours ago, Jeanne said: Always be honest with your kids. Nah, I prefer they believe in Santa and that the stork brings babies for now. We'll shatter their illusions when they're older. 1
JLHPROF Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 4 hours ago, Tacenda said: .Not that I am atheist, but I believe atheists don't shut the door completely on there being zero chance of there being a God. They possibly see the wrong done in the name of God. No, that's anti-religionists. Atheism is literally a belief there is no God. 2
TOmNossor Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: Neither atheism or agnosticism necessarily result in nihilism; it is not an inherent characteristic of either. And both theism and non-belief can be nihilistic. I very much agree with Richard Dawkins the prominent Atheist author and apologist: "When I read much of the arguments made by self-labelled atheists I can't help seeing that they are intrinsically nihilistic or at the very least if followed to their logical ends, lead fundamentally to a nihilistic viewpoint. If logical, rational thinking is used then I fail to see how nihilism cannot be the conclusion." It is my considered opinion (and my bomb throwing opinion) that Atheists who are not Nihilists refused to walk the rational path laid before them. This path is not overly complex. Atheists who are not Nihilists are either so repulsed by the logical conclusion, they cannot bring themselves to embrace it OR they are merely Atheists because it is so cool and intellectual to claim they are not part of the unwashed masses who lean upon a belief in God. My invitation to those who claim to be Atheist and yet reject Nihilism is to dig deep into the meaning they find in existence. Recognize that God is not the simplistic caricature Atheist recoil against. Instead, that meaning you find in existence is a profound and important part of what God has bestowed upon mankind. From here you can halt in your movement towards God or you can see that perhaps there is much more to discover. Charity, TOm Edited January 30, 2020 by TOmNossor 2
Ahab Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, that's anti-religionists. Atheism is literally a belief there is no God. And yet here we are. We are God, our kind of being. Atheists refute their own existence, probably without realizing it because they are so stuck on their own definition of God that they can't open their minds to consider that the ultimate kind of being is what we call God.
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 34 minutes ago, TOmNossor said: Atheists who are not Nihilists are either so repulsed by the logical conclusion, they cannot bring themselves to embrace it OR they are merely Atheists because it is so cool and intellectual to claim they are not part of the unwashed masses who lean upon a belief in God. There are cultures where atheism is commonplace and in those cases, none of the above may apply. They are atheists because that was how they were brought up and they never really bothered to think it through. I met some Chinese immigrants in Canada who seemed to have that experience (seemed because their English wasn't the best and my Chinese nonexistent.. Met some Russians in Russia who were definitely atheists in that way. Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm 1
smac97 Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 25 minutes ago, TOmNossor said: I very much agree with Richard Dawkins the prominent Atheist author and apologist: "When I read much of the arguments made by self-labelled atheists I can't help seeing that they are intrinsically nihilistic or at the very least if followed to their logical ends, lead fundamentally to a nihilistic viewpoint. If logical, rational thinking is used then I fail to see how nihilism cannot be the conclusion." It is my considered opinion (and my bomb throwing opinion) that Atheists who are not Nihilists refused to walk the rational path laid before them. This path is not overly complex.Atheists who are not Nihilists are either so repulsed by the logical conclusion, they cannot bring themselves to embrace it OR they are merely Atheists because it is so cool and intellectual to claim they are not part of the unwashed masses who lean upon a belief in God. My invitation to those who claim to be Atheist and yet reject Nihilism is to dig deep into the meaning they find in existence. Recognize that God is not the simplistic caricature Atheist recoil against. Instead, that meaning you find in existence is a profound and important part of what God has bestowed upon mankind. From here you can halt in your movement towards God or you can see that perhaps there is much more to discover. Charity, TOm Could you provide a reference for this quote? I found this one on website of the "Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science": Quote What would you say is the distinguishing criteria to draw the line between atheist and nihilist? I consider myself an existential nihilist and yet when I read much of the arguments made by self-labelled atheists I can't help seeing that they are intrinsically nihilistic or at the very least if followed to their logical ends, lead fundamentally to a nihilistic viewpoint. If logical, rational thinking is used then I fail to see how nihilism cannot be the conclusion. Atheism is merely the rejection of religious beliefs, whereas nihilism goes further to saying that there is no meaning to our existence, we are just what we make ourselves to be. But how many 'atheists' fall into the latter category? If you don't believe in a creator or divine plan and you understand how our minds and emotions have evolved as chemical signals and electrical pulses then where do you fit the meaning in to this? I enjoy being alive and live as hedonistic lifestyle as possible yet I am under no illusion that this has any meaning outside of my own mind. I believe that when living memories of myself die then my existence is erased entirely, in a few billion years that anything that ever happened on Earth won’t matter, the universe will continue regardless and nothing will have any more significance than if the Earth hadn't existed at all. In trillions of years when the final stars die out and all matter is erased then time will cease to have any meaning. Thanks, -Smac
Meadowchik Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 37 minutes ago, JLHPROF said: No, that's anti-religionists. Atheism is literally a belief there is no God. Nope on both counts. An atheist may believe gods do not exist or may simply lack belief in the existence of god(s). There are people who believe strongly in God but not at all in religion and who are emphatically against religion, too. 1
TOmNossor Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Calm said: There are cultures where atheism is commonplace and in those cases, none of the above may apply. They are atheists because that was how they were brought up and they never really bothered to think it through. I met some Chinese immigrants in Canada who seemed to have that experience. Met some Russians in Russia who were atheists in that way. I can acknowledge that my experience of Atheism is MOST commonly in response to Restored Christianity, Christianity, or Theism. The ability to reach consistent Nihilism is probably enhanced by the contrast with belief in God. I should also acknowledge that when I speak of Atheism, I do not mean it the way the early Romans applied it to the Christians. Not only do I not mean this, I also don't think of cultures that worship their ancestors who have life after death. Instead, I think of the celebration of rationality that supposedly informs Atheists today. The lack of a universal purpose for our time here seems to rationally follow from the idea that we are purely a product of naturalistic evolution that just happened (Dawkins agrees). Let me change my statement: "Atheists who are not Nihilist are either so repulsed by the logical conclusion, they cannot bring themselves to embrace it OR they are merely Atheists because of cultural (or counter-cultural) aspects in their lives. The "counter-cultural" Atheist frequently celebrates not being part of the unwashed masses who lean upon a belief in God, but they are no more rationally informed then are the non-thoughtful believers." Would that be more in alignment with your position as an inclusive non-bomb thrower (and a better person than I am for sure). Charity, TOm 1
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 1 minute ago, TOmNossor said: Would that be more in alignment with your position as an inclusive non-bomb thrower (and a better person than I am for sure). That fits my experience much better. 1
Meadowchik Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 35 minutes ago, TOmNossor said: I very much agree with Richard Dawkins the prominent Atheist author and apologist: "When I read much of the arguments made by self-labelled atheists I can't help seeing that they are intrinsically nihilistic or at the very least if followed to their logical ends, lead fundamentally to a nihilistic viewpoint. If logical, rational thinking is used then I fail to see how nihilism cannot be the conclusion." It is my considered opinion (and my bomb throwing opinion) that Atheists who are not Nihilists refused to walk the rational path laid before them. This path is not overly complex. Atheists who are not Nihilists are either so repulsed by the logical conclusion, they cannot bring themselves to embrace it OR they are merely Atheists because it is so cool and intellectual to claim they are not part of the unwashed masses who lean upon a belief in God. My invitation to those who claim to be Atheist and yet reject Nihilism is to dig deep into the meaning they find in existence. Recognize that God is not the simplistic caricature Atheist recoil against. Instead, that meaning you find in existence is a profound and important part of what God has bestowed upon mankind. From here you can halt in your movement towards God or you can see that perhaps there is much more to discover. Charity, TOm There's a abundance of assumptions about atheism and atheists being packed in such a few number of sentences. I could argue that an atheist can be as unnihilistic as anyone, as a person who does not expect anything after this life and who therefore decides to live this life intentionally and fully and to at least live on by contributing to others while they are here. 1
TOmNossor Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: Could you provide a reference for this quote? I found this one on website of the "Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science": Thanks, -Smac That was what I found. Instead of just claiming that Nihilism was the logical conclusion for the Atheist because TOm a non-Atheist, non-Nihilist says it is; I searched for "Atheism and Nihilism" on Google. This is my "appeal to authority." Charity, TOm
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: I could argue that an atheist can be as unnihilistic as anyone, as a person who does not expect anything after this life and who therefore decides to live this life intentionally and fully and to at least live on by contributing to others while they are here. I have known an atheist who said the lack of any meaning imposed upon the universe allowed him to create his own meaning, which he viewed as much more meaningful to himself than anything external could have been. Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm 1
TOmNossor Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: There's a abundance of assumptions about atheism and atheists being packed in such a few number of sentences. I could argue that an atheist can be as unnihilistic as anyone, as a person who does not expect anything after this life and who therefore decides to live this life intentionally and fully and to at least live on by contributing to others while they are here. My invitation stands, but if people must be atheist, I am glad so few are actually nihilists! Charity, TOm
SeekingUnderstanding Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, TOmNossor said: I very much agree with Richard Dawkins the prominent Atheist author and apologist: "When I read much of the arguments made by self-labelled atheists I can't help seeing that they are intrinsically nihilistic or at the very least if followed to their logical ends, lead fundamentally to a nihilistic viewpoint. If logical, rational thinking is used then I fail to see how nihilism cannot be the conclusion." CFR 1 hour ago, TOmNossor said: It is my considered opinion (and my bomb throwing opinion) that Atheists who are not Nihilists refused to walk the rational path laid before them. This path is not overly complex. Can you explain what you mean by Nihilism? I mean with no gods out there, it’s clear that the universe/gods provides no meaning for life. Why does it logically follow that we must view our lives as meaningless. That is, why should I care that I don’t derive my meaning from external sources. Isn’t the meaning I find internally just as valid? Please use small words so my puny mind can understand .
pogi Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 1 hour ago, JLHPROF said: Atheism is literally a belief there is no God. 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Nope...An atheist may...simply lack belief in the existence of god(s). Isn't it true to say that if a person believes there is no God, that they "lack belief in the existence of God"? It's kind of the same thing. However, I think it is a little too ambiguous Meadowchik, because an agnostic lacks belief in God too - you are not distinguishing between the two. You have to be more specific. The better question is, "do you believe that there is no God?" If they answer "yes", then they are an atheist. If they answer "I don't have a position", then they are agnostic. That is how I understand the difference anyway.
Ahab Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Can you explain what you mean by Nihilism? I mean with no gods out there, it’s clear that the universe/gods provides no meaning for life. Why does it logically follow that we must view our lives as meaningless. That is, why should I care that I don’t derive my meaning from external sources. Isn’t the meaning I find internally just as valid? Please use small words so my puny mind can understand . Just as valid as what? As valid as any meaning derived through reasoning of external sources? Why should that make one life any more meaningful than any other? Or have any meaning at all? If all we do is live and then die what is the purpose of life? What difference does any life make? What difference does how someone lives their life make? Everyone who lives is going to die and then that is it. Nothing else. What would be the meaning to life if that were the case? Sounds like the proverbial: Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die! mindset to me. Why do anything in any specific way if in the end we're all going to die and then that is it, with nothing else after that moment. Edited January 30, 2020 by Ahab
Meadowchik Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, pogi said: Isn't it true to say that if a person believes there is no God, that they "lack belief in the existence of God"? It's kind of the same thing. However, I think it is a little too ambiguous Meadowchik, because an agnostic lacks belief in God too - you are not distinguishing between the two. You have to be more specific. The better question is, "do you believe that there is no God?" If they answer "yes", then they are an atheist. If they answer "I don't have a position", then they are agnostic. That is how I understand the difference anyway. Not how I understand it or the standard definitions I've read. Atheists do not believe in God, but can be that way in different ways. Agnosticism is a nuanced difference, that the existence of God is not knowable. 1
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, pogi said: Isn't it true to say that if a person believes there is no God, that they "lack belief in the existence of God"? It's kind of the same thing. In the first case, they have thought about it and actively formed a belief there is no God. In the second, likely they haven’t thought about it or have thought about it but have no decision and therefore haven’t formed a belief. It may seem unlikely in a culture where belief in God is so widely discussed and seen as important to take a stand on (think how it affects politics), but there are people who just don’t care. The way I was taught was the first was a strong atheist, second type was a weak atheist. Not sure that is the correct terminology. An agnostic is someone who has actively decided they can’t decide. Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm
smac97 Posted January 30, 2020 Author Posted January 30, 2020 7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Atheists do not believe in God, but can be that way in different ways. Agnosticism is a nuanced difference, that the existence of God is not knowable. I think agnosticism is necessarily distinguishable from atheism. The former says "I don't know, and cannot know, if God exists," and the latter says "I affirmatively reject the existence of God." Thanks, -Smac 1
Ahab Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, smac97 said: I think agnosticism is necessarily distinguishable from atheism. The former says "I don't know, and cannot know, if God exists," and the latter says "I affirmatively reject the existence of God." Thanks, -Smac And then when someone like me comes along to tell them we are the kind of being we refer to as God because we are the ultimate kind of being in all of existence, one of them says I don't know about that and the other says " I affirmatively reject that idea". No progress made. Once an agnostic or atheist always an agnostic or atheist unless they become a believer and are then no longer an agnostic or atheist.
Calm Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, smac97 said: the latter says "I affirmatively reject the existence of God." No, they may not. They may say I have no belief in a god or gods. Think of how people may ask if someone thinks Elvis Presley was a great singer or a bad one. There could be the position that one can’t know because what makes a great singer is personal taste, another may say “I can’t stand his voice”, and the last may say “Elvis who cares?” or “doesn’t matter to me as I don’t listen to anything earlier than 2000”. The last two are analogous to strong and weak atheism. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism Quote Negative atheism, also called weak atheism and soft atheism, is any type of atheism where a person does not believe in the existence of any deities but does not explicitly assert that there are none. Positive atheism, also called strong atheism and hard atheism, is the form of atheism that additionally asserts that no deities exist. Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm 1
pogi Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 16 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said: Can you explain what you mean by Nihilism? I mean with no gods out there, it’s clear that the universe/gods provides no meaning for life. Why does it logically follow that we must view our lives as meaningless. That is, why should I care that I don’t derive my meaning from external sources. Isn’t the meaning I find internally just as valid? Please use small words so my puny mind can understand . If you think about it, to create meaning out of no meaning, is about as absurd as creation ex-nihlo. It is a form of psychological alchemy. Any imagined meaning one creates in a world without God has no foundation or intrinsic value. It is an illusion, or delusion - very useful and pleasurable illusion that I encourage all atheists to perpetuate and engage with, but none-the-less an illusion that will fade back into the ever-present/eternal and triumphant meaningless expanse that created the illusion of agency and your ability to choose meaning.
mfbukowski Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ahab said: No progress made. Once an agnostic or atheist always an agnostic or atheist unless they become a believer and are then no longer an agnostic or atheist Erase that last paragraph. That's the way you would speak to other people. It says nothing, except for the first sentence which indeed is perfectly correct. No progress made.
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