Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 10 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yes they are either stuck or they're not. That is called a "tautology." It is either A or not A. You can say that about anything and be right. I am a former atheist myself so your point is not very convincing. I did not "want" to change. I was perfectly happy. I changed because I learned that belief in God is intellectually justifiable, and then God showed himself to me in a testimony experience. I had no choice but to surrender. I knew and he knew that I knew. Good for you, but not all atheists will respond in the same way that you did, or at least not as quickly. Some just dismiss the revelatory experience as just a thought in their head and discard it without thinking much about it, at least not at that particular time. And then sometimes after a while that thought will recur to them when something similar happens or they thin similar thoughts even if those thoughts are not the same exact thoughts that they had before. And again they'll either dismiss them or choose to believe those thoughts are coming from God. It works that way with everybody. God's work does not stop simply because we are not ready to move on yet. He'll try again and again and again to get an idea across to us, whether it sticks or not. And for some people it never will stick while for others it will stick, eventually. I was an atheist, too, once. Everybody was. Nobody just wakes up one day automatically believing in God. It's a process for everybody, an education, and God as our Father will continue to work with us until... I don't know, maybe he never will stop, even if we never believe him.
smac97 Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Nehor said: I would like to see some stats on people raised by those with an insincere belief in God they pretend to have to see how that helps. Most kids are not stupid enough to fall for that. That's a fair criticism of the therapist's approach. I soft-peddled my reaction to it in the OP. Let me be more emphatic: I disagree with the therapist's recommendation for atheist parents to lie to their children. I think a principled therapist could lay out the possible ramifications on a child arising from atheism's nihilistic worldview, then lay out the parents' options: Explain what you believe to your kids, and let the chips fall where they may (and/or try to emphasize whatever "silver linings" you can see in it). Sidestep what you believe, or otherwise avoid the topic, and let the chips fall where they may. Reconsider the atheistic worldview. After all, it's not like atheism is compulsory. It's a choice. Thanks, -Smac
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 5 hours ago, Calm said: Strong/positive atheism is a faith position in my view, a belief based on untestable assumptions. Weak/negative atheism is absence of a belief in deity. No assumptions involved. I beg to differ.
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 45 minutes ago, smac97 said: Only if you conflate "belief" with "worship." No, I'm not talking about worship, but belief in whether God exists. I do not believe God exists. 45 minutes ago, smac97 said: Atheism, on the other hand, does in fact reach a "conclusion" about the existence of God. Not necessarily. Atheism simply means the lack of believing in God. 45 minutes ago, smac97 said: I don't think that works. Works for me. 50 minutes ago, smac97 said: Then you are an agnostic, not an atheist. Nope, I am an agnostic atheist. Such a philosophical position has been explicitly articulated since at least the 1800s. 50 minutes ago, smac97 said: Atheists affirmatively deny the existence of God. Agnostics do not. I think atheists are, by definition, mutually exclusive from agnostics. The latter sits on the fence, and the former stands on one side of the fence. No, atheism is broader in meaning than you suppose. 1
The Nehor Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, smac97 said: That's a fair criticism of the therapist's approach. I soft-peddled my reaction to it in the OP. Let me be more emphatic: I disagree with the therapist's recommendation for atheist parents to lie to their children. I think a principled therapist could lay out the possible ramifications on a child arising from atheism's nihilistic worldview, then lay out the parents' options: Explain what you believe to your kids, and let the chips fall where they may (and/or try to emphasize whatever "silver linings" you can see in it). Sidestep what you believe, or otherwise avoid the topic, and let the chips fall where they may. Reconsider the atheistic worldview. After all, it's not like atheism is compulsory. It's a choice. Thanks, -Smac It is a choice but it is not one you can or should evaluate based on what personally benefits you or your children. Believing untrue things because it is helpful or comforting is common but it is not healthy. One can correctly say that the gospel of Jesus Christ can solve all the world’s problems but if you go to it just to get the solutions and you desire stability more than God Himself it will never work. Edited January 31, 2020 by The Nehor 1
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Popular Post Posted January 31, 2020 5 hours ago, Calm said: Ask someone else as I don’t believe all forms of atheism inherently leads to nihilism or no something that continues to exist after death. Plus I was responding to Tacenda’s strong disagreement asking for more info as she hadn’t explained what she disagreed with, so I was neither supporting or rejecting lying to your kids in that comment. I don’t believe in lying to one’s kids, but I also recognize they lack the mental capacity to understand things in the way I do in many areas, so I have to explain using less than accurate terms at times or leave out important information. How do I explain how the sun shines to a three year old? Do I include the part where it is constantly exploding (she understands explosions) held together by forces like gravity (she might understand that things fall to the ground, but she has seen fireworks fly up from the ground and explode, so why should she trust that gravity and other things will keep the sun from exploding apart and therefore disappearing...at least during her lifetime)...or does a wise parent use simple ideas attached to safe things to explain how the sun works so the child has a better, if very incomplete idea and also isn’t frightened. When we were kids, our mom used to tell us that "the moon is the north wind's cookie and he eats it day by day" -- as a way of explaining the phases of the moon. We thought our mom was really cool, and that she made really good cookies. We especially liked her freshly baked oatmeal cookies. Even though we were very small, I'm not sure we took her literally about the North Wind. Songs and poetry were her forte, and I think we all got the basic, non-literal message. Parents should spin all the yarns they want for their youngsters. Alas, dreamtime and fairyland will be done and gone all too soon. 6
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: When we were kids, our mom used to tell us that "the moon is the north wind's cookie and he eats it day by day" -- as a way of explaining the phases of the moon. We thought our mom was really cool, and that she made really good cookies. We especially liked her freshly baked oatmeal cookies. Even though we were very small, I'm not sure we took her literally about the North Wind. Songs and poetry were her forte, and I think we all got the basic, non-literal message. Parents should spin all the yarns they want for their youngsters. Alas, dreamtime and fairyland will be done and gone all too soon. Typically, I have found it best to tell my children the truth when they're old enough to ask. The tricky part, however, is when the older kids are ready for the younger ones and want to insist on expounding on their new knowledge to the younger ones. That's when I very pointedly explain to the older ones that if they still want to enjoy the game of Santa or the Tooth Fairy, it's nicer if they play the game with their younger siblings and not ruin the fun. That seemed to work for us. 2
smac97 Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: No, I'm not talking about worship, but belief in whether God exists. I do not believe God exists. Then you are an atheist, not an agnostic. The former "do{es} not believe God exists," whereas the latter says "the existence of God is unknown and unknowable." 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Quote Atheism, on the other hand, does in fact reach a "conclusion" about the existence of God. Not necessarily. Atheism simply means the lack of believing in God. Again, only if you conflate "belief" with "worship." Atheism affirmatively denies the existence of God. 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Quote Quote That is why I say I am an agnostic atheist. I don't think that works. Works for me. By "I don't think that works," I meant to say "I do not think you are accurately using the terms." "Agnostic atheist" is a contradiction in terms. 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: Quote Quote I lack a belief in God, not out of apathy, by the way, but for the mindful reason that I think God's existence is now unknowable. Then you are an agnostic, not an atheist. Nope, I am an agnostic atheist. Such a philosophical position has been explicitly articulated since at least the 1800s. Well, I'll leave you to it. 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: No, atheism is broader in meaning than you suppose. You raise a fair point. Still, most of this seems like the inverse equivalent of arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It also seems like a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of thing. Thanks, -Smac 2
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 6 minutes ago, smac97 said: You raise a fair point. Still, most of this seems like the inverse equivalent of arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It also seems like a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of thing. I am happy to have words that accurately describe my philosophical position at this time. Yet, as with any philosophical statement, owning it has its effects. So I'm not sure where the "taking an action without its consequences" comes into play, as you imply with the cake idiom. 1
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I am happy to have words that accurately describe my philosophical position at this time. Yet, as with any philosophical statement, owning it has its effects. So I'm not sure where the "taking an action without its consequences" comes into play, as you imply with the cake idiom. My question to you that I will use to determine whether or not you are an atheist is: Do you believe there is any kind of being on this planet that is more supreme as a kind of being than our kind? People, in other words. Mankind. The supreme kind of being on this planet. If you answer by saying that you think there is some other kind of being that is more supreme than we are I would say that kind of being is the kind of being you consider God to be. If you think we are the supreme kind of being, you agree with me that we are the supreme being.
Popular Post smac97 Posted January 31, 2020 Author Popular Post Posted January 31, 2020 8 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: When we were kids, our mom used to tell us that "the moon is the north wind's cookie and he eats it day by day" -- as a way of explaining the phases of the moon. We thought our mom was really cool, and that she made really good cookies. We especially liked her freshly baked oatmeal cookies. Even though we were very small, I'm not sure we took her literally about the North Wind. Songs and poetry were her forte, and I think we all got the basic, non-literal message. Parents should spin all the yarns they want for their youngsters. Alas, dreamtime and fairyland will be done and gone all too soon. My oldest son, fast approaching his 22nd birthday, thought he was Prince Phillip (from Disney's Sleeping Beauty) when he was a toddler. We went along with it. My mother-in-law made him a red cape and hat (like in the movie), which he wore proudly as he fought Maleficent the Dragon (my wife), and then rescued Rose (also my wife). Later, he became Buzz Lightyear. Then he grew out of it. You're quite right. Dreams and fantastical stories are wonderful for kids, even if they can't readily differentiate such things from reality. Kids encounter the Real World all too soon. Let's let them have their fun. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1 Cor. 13:11) Thanks, -Smac 6
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 Are we arguing yet again about definitions of words, and actually taking sides on who is right? Praise Wittgenstein! All the intellectual problems of mankind can be boiled down to semantic differences. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 12 minutes ago, smac97 said: My oldest son, fast approaching his 22nd birthday, thought he was Prince Phillip (from Disney's Sleeping Beauty) when he was a toddler. We went along with it. My mother-in-law made him a red cape and hat (like in the movie), which he wore proudly as he fought Maleficent the Dragon (my wife), and then rescued Rose (also my wife). Later, he became Buzz Lightyear. Then he grew out of it. You're quite right. Dreams and fantastical stories are wonderful for kids, even if they can't readily differentiate such things from reality. Kids encounter the Real World all too soon. Let's let them have their fun. "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1 Cor. 13:11) Thanks, -Smac I just doubt if there is any "reality" beyond the stories we continually make up, to get into. Is Pluto a planet this week? Is string theory about reality? 1
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Are we arguing yet again about definitions of words, and actually taking sides on who is right? Praise Wittgenstein! All the intellectual problems of mankind can be boiled down to semantic differences. More like different opinions of what semantic differences are.
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 31 minutes ago, Ahab said: My question to you that I will use to determine whether or not you are an atheist is: Do you believe there is any kind of being on this planet that is more supreme as a kind of being than our kind? People, in other words. Mankind. The supreme kind of being on this planet. If you answer by saying that you think there is some other kind of being that is more supreme than we are I would say that kind of being is the kind of being you consider God to be. If you think we are the supreme kind of being, you agree with me that we are the supreme being. It sounds like you have your own definition of atheist and it is unclear to me. I think I have been clear enough, so you can refer to my previous statements. Thanks. 1
Calm Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: I beg to differ. Well, I will be sure to tell my atheist acquaintances who taught me how they viewed themselves and the implications of their beliefs or lack of them that they are wrong because there are Saints who know better than themselves even if those Saints refuse to accept the definition of "nonChristian" and "polytheist" that is often imposed on them by nonLDS.
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: It sounds like you have your own definition of atheist and it is unclear to me. I think I have been clear enough, so you can refer to my previous statements. Thanks. No, you haven't been clear enough to me so as of now I don't know which kind of being you believe is God. Edited January 31, 2020 by Ahab
smac97 Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 15 minutes ago, Calm said: Well, I will be sure to tell my atheist acquaintances who taught me how they viewed themselves and the implications of their beliefs or lack of them that they are wrong because there are Saints who know better than themselves even if those Saints refuse to accept the definition of "nonChristian" and "polytheist" that is often imposed on them by nonLDS. Meadowchik has said some things in this thread that are making me re-assess my perspectives on atheism. For that, I am grateful to her. Thanks, -Smac 1
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 19 minutes ago, Calm said: Well, I will be sure to tell my atheist acquaintances who taught me how they viewed themselves and the implications of their beliefs or lack of them that they are wrong because there are Saints who know better than themselves even if those Saints refuse to accept the definition of "nonChristian" and "polytheist" that is often imposed on them by nonLDS. How people view themselves isn't necessarily how they are. Just as how people view other people isn't necessarily how those other people are, either. People are often wrong and just don't know it. And people are often right even if other people don't know that, either.
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: I am happy to have words that accurately describe my philosophical position at this time. Yet, as with any philosophical statement, owning it has its effects. So I'm not sure where the "taking an action without its consequences" comes into play, as you imply with the cake idiom. In my perspective it means that IF you believe you are an atheist, that means that you believe there is no kind of being that is better than any other kind, no supreme kind of being, whatsoever. Which would mean you believe there is not one kind of being that is better in any way than any other kind of being, because if that kind of being were better than some other kind, the kind that was better would be more supreme than the other. And since I don't believe you believe that, I don't believe you are an atheist, even if you believe you are.
Calm Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 24 minutes ago, smac97 said: Meadowchik has said some things in this thread that are making me re-assess my perspectives on atheism. For that, I am grateful to her. Thanks, -Smac Good. I get concerned when I see people telling others what they have to believe if they are ______. This is why I have been posting in this thread. I think Saints should be particularly sensitive to avoiding this given our history. 3
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Calm said: Good. I get concerned when I see people telling others what they have to believe if they are ______. This is why I have been posting in this thread. I think Saints should be particularly sensitive to avoiding this given our history. I don't think anyone has to believe anything. When talking about our beliefs with others it just helps to try to use words to reflect what we believe based on our understanding of those words. And if we have different understandings of words, we can just discuss that. I'm sure our earlier saints didn't have a problem at all with discussing things with other people, even having long discussions over days and days if they thought they could help to communicate their ideas to others. The problems didn't start until people started burning down houses or using tar and feathers or otherwise in some other way molesting/tormenting/harassing those who were trying to share the truth with them. Fortunately here on the internet we don't have to worry about that kind of thing. These are just words, and we should simply be trying to share the truth that we believe while trying to find more wherever we can find it.
Meadowchik Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 23 minutes ago, Ahab said: In my perspective it means that IF you believe you are an atheist, that means that you believe there is no kind of being that is better than any other kind, no supreme kind of being, whatsoever. Which would mean you believe there is not one kind of being that is better in any way than any other kind of being, because if that kind of being were better than some other kind, the kind that was better would be more supreme than the other. And since I don't believe you believe that, I don't believe you are an atheist, even if you believe you are. As an atheist, I don't believe that God exists. God is not, by any normal understanding, merely the best being among beings. You have your own personal definition of God, apparently. But when speaking with others, it's probably wise, unless otherwise stated, to assume they are using conventional definitions of words. You can assume such with me, anyways. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, Ahab said: More like different opinions of what semantic differences are. 🙄😒😩 A pic is worth a thousand.
Ahab Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: As an atheist, I don't believe that God exists. God is not, by any normal understanding, merely the best being among beings. Most dictionaries say otherwise, simply defining God as some kind of supreme being. And not even the best of all kinds, in come cases. Someone can be said to be a god of basketball, for example. I'm not going to try to beat you over the head until you agree with me but you can look in a dictionary to find that you are the one who seems to have your own unique definition of what the word "God" can refer to, and that is okay, because the word can be used to refer to any kind of being that is considered to be supreme. Quote You have your own personal definition of God, apparently. But when speaking with others, it's probably wise, unless otherwise stated, to assume they are using conventional definitions of words. You can assume such with me, anyways. I don't like to assume anything. It's just that the word is so open ended it can be used to refer to any kind of being that anyone considers to be supreme, and I'm sure there is one of all that are out there, and here, which you consider to be better than any other. Edited January 31, 2020 by Ahab
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