Popular Post bsjkki Posted January 5, 2020 Popular Post Posted January 5, 2020 President Nelson has shared an invitation for 2020 with all the members. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/blog/my-2020-invitation-to-you-share-the-message-of-the-restoration-of-the-saviors-gospel?lang=eng "God loves all of His children and has a vision for each of us. Just as He listened to Joseph’s prayer in 1820, He listens to you and yearns to speak with you through the Spirit. Heavenly Father wants you. We want you. This is going to be an important year. We invite you to be a major part in sharing the message of the ongoing Restoration of the Savior’s gospel. We will share more about this soon, but you can start today by acting on the invitations I extended to you at last general conference to immerse yourself in the glorious light of the Restoration. What does that look like? You may wish to begin your preparation by reading afresh Joseph Smith’s account of the First Vision as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price. Or ponder important questions such as “How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?” or “How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?” 10
Nacho2dope Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 11:35 PM, bsjkki said: President Nelson has shared an invitation for 2020 with all the members. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/blog/my-2020-invitation-to-you-share-the-message-of-the-restoration-of-the-saviors-gospel?lang=eng "God loves all of His children and has a vision for each of us. Just as He listened to Joseph’s prayer in 1820, He listens to you and yearns to speak with you through the Spirit. Heavenly Father wants you. We want you. This is going to be an important year. We invite you to be a major part in sharing the message of the ongoing Restoration of the Savior’s gospel. We will share more about this soon, but you can start today by acting on the invitations I extended to you at last general conference to immerse yourself in the glorious light of the Restoration. What does that look like? You may wish to begin your preparation by reading afresh Joseph Smith’s account of the First Vision as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price. Or ponder important questions such as “How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?” or “How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?” We have been studying this as a family and it has been a nice review. My wife mentioned that there are some wards in our stake, and I guess possibly ours, that may be doing a ward activity to help prepare for this. Just curious if anyone else is doing something as a ward and if so what are you doing? Thanks 2
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 10:35 PM, bsjkki said: This is going to be an important year. We invite you to be a major part in sharing the message of the ongoing Restoration of the Savior’s gospel. We will share more about this soon... Any speculations as to what he might be hinting at here? TBA at the special April conference? It sounds like there is going to be some major missionary effort on the member level that we will be invited to take part in. 2
Nacho2dope Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 7 minutes ago, pogi said: Any speculations as to what he might be hinting at here? TBA at the special April conference? It sounds like there is going to be some major missionary effort on the member level that we will be invited to take part in. It definitely sounds like a member missionary movement. Not sure if it will tie into ministering, but something big is coming.
Ahab Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 My wife and I are learning more about Church History with these Church History podcasts: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/latter-day-saints-channel/listen/series/the-first-vision-a-joseph-smith-papers-podcast?lang=eng While listening we also googled some more about the history of New England, which I didn't know much about, and found this nice little video: 2
2BizE Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 Which account of the First Vision are we to study? 1
Thinking Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 33 minutes ago, 2BizE said: Which account of the First Vision are we to study? Even I resisted the temptation to ask this question. Quote You may wish to begin your preparation by reading afresh Joseph Smith’s account of the First Vision as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price.
stemelbow Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 On 1/4/2020 at 10:35 PM, bsjkki said: “How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?” So so much better. If he only knew. On 1/4/2020 at 10:35 PM, bsjkki said: or “How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?” How would anyone know?
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 8 minutes ago, stemelbow said: So so much better. If he only knew. How so? What principles taught in the Book of Mormon would be deleterious to well-being? 14 minutes ago, stemelbow said: How would anyone know? While it is impossible to know what might have been, it is not hard to recognize the impact and blessing it has been in my life. 3
stemelbow Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 17 minutes ago, pogi said: How so? What principles taught in the Book of Mormon would be deleterious to well-being? I don't care to list them. The opposite would be my question. What is good from the Book that is not good we can glean from elsewhere? I think I can imagine what might be the answer and in all honesty I kinda shrug wondering what is so good still. 17 minutes ago, pogi said: While it is impossible to know what might have been, it is not hard to recognize the impact and blessing it has been in my life. Sure it is. If impact and blessing could be greater without it in one's life, then you'd never know. But it's surely possible that is the case.
Popular Post The Nehor Posted January 14, 2020 Popular Post Posted January 14, 2020 2 hours ago, 2BizE said: Which account of the First Vision are we to study? All of them. Don’t be lazy. 6
pogi Posted January 14, 2020 Posted January 14, 2020 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: I don't care to list them. The opposite would be my question. What is good from the Book that is not good we can glean from elsewhere? I think I can imagine what might be the answer and in all honesty I kinda shrug wondering what is so good still. Let me use the Book of Mormon to answer: Quote 8 Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also. 9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever. (2 Nephi 29) Why would your life be worse off because you have another testimony of Jesus Christ? Why would you murmur because "ye shall receive more of my word?" Can you glean these principles from elsewhere? Sure, this passage acknowledges that, but this clarifies, expounds, and strengthens the testimony of the first. 1 hour ago, stemelbow said: Sure it is. If impact and blessing could be greater without it in one's life, then you'd never know. But it's surely possible that is the case. Let me get this straight, it is impossible to know the positive impact but not the negative impact? That seems unreasonable. You argue that we can't know what might have been and therefore can't estimate the impact, yet you proclaim with seeming certainty that your life would have been "so so much better" without it. 1
mfbukowski Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 12 hours ago, 2BizE said: Which account of the First Vision are we to study? Have siblings? Ask them about any childhood experience in which you were all included and find out how different "reality" can be. 1
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 14 hours ago, pogi said: Let me use the Book of Mormon to answer: I think "nation" is an interesting word to use in the BoM. What do you think is meant by that? 14 hours ago, pogi said: Why would your life be worse off because you have another testimony of Jesus Christ? Why would it be better? I think if you know that you can imagine why it would be worse. Some believers in Christ have it easy compared to others. Some believers in Christ have it worse compared to others. In your case how would you possibly know if you'd have it worse off or better of if you did not believe in Christ? 14 hours ago, pogi said: Why would you murmur because "ye shall receive more of my word?" What is meant by murmur? I don't think I murmured (a soft, indistinct sound made by a person or group of people speaking quietly or at a distance). 14 hours ago, pogi said: Can you glean these principles from elsewhere? Sure, this passage acknowledges that, but this clarifies, expounds, and strengthens the testimony of the first. Of course, only for those who are want to believe. So far that includes less than 1% of us. 14 hours ago, pogi said: Let me get this straight, it is impossible to know the positive impact but not the negative impact? You've misunderstood. I'm saying any given person wouldn't know if their life would be better or not if they believed or didn't believe. Certainly people can proclaim with honesty and dignity that their life is blessed by believing in Jesus, but if say they didn't believe in Jesus at all, how would they really know if their life was better or not? They can really only imagine and would not know. 14 hours ago, pogi said: That seems unreasonable. You argue that we can't know what might have been and therefore can't estimate the impact, yet you proclaim with seeming certainty that your life would have been "so so much better" without it. No. I"m suggesting I'm feeling much better without it. My life, as in I have more things or have less bills, is not necessarily better, but my mental faculties, my outlook...all of that is better without it. I grant, though, if you want to argue, some people do better with it. I'd just point out some of us seem to do better without it.
CV75 Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 On 1/5/2020 at 12:35 AM, bsjkki said: President Nelson has shared an invitation for 2020 with all the members. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/blog/my-2020-invitation-to-you-share-the-message-of-the-restoration-of-the-saviors-gospel?lang=eng "God loves all of His children and has a vision for each of us. Just as He listened to Joseph’s prayer in 1820, He listens to you and yearns to speak with you through the Spirit. Heavenly Father wants you. We want you. This is going to be an important year. We invite you to be a major part in sharing the message of the ongoing Restoration of the Savior’s gospel. We will share more about this soon, but you can start today by acting on the invitations I extended to you at last general conference to immerse yourself in the glorious light of the Restoration. What does that look like? You may wish to begin your preparation by reading afresh Joseph Smith’s account of the First Vision as recorded in the Pearl of Great Price. Or ponder important questions such as “How would my life be different if my knowledge gained from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away?” or “How have the events that followed the First Vision made a difference for me and my loved ones?” This caught my attention when i got the e-mail last week, and the exercise has been extremely beneficial. Funny how i didn't really heed the invitation when he mentioned it last Conference, but the "hinge point in the history of the Church" certainly caught my attention so I put some effort into it and voila! Whether we are making history happen as a result of what we do after our pondering or observing history as it unfolds, the blessings of the Restoration (e.g. the keys restored in D&C 110) and the Book of Mormon (Christ's personal witnesses) are the most precious I think can have in this life. Whatever light might survive through 2000 years of the Great Apostasy to today would be insufficient to prepare a people for the Second Coming, which would then only serve as its own "Restoration" (contradicting the thought experiment). 2
Ahab Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, stemelbow said: Why would it be better? I think if you know that you can imagine why it would be worse. Some believers in Christ have it easy compared to others. Some believers in Christ have it worse compared to others. In your case how would you possibly know if you'd have it worse off or better of if you did not believe in Christ? ... Of course, only for those who are want to believe. So far that includes less than 1% of us. You've misunderstood. I'm saying any given person wouldn't know if their life would be better or not if they believed or didn't believe. Certainly people can proclaim with honesty and dignity that their life is blessed by believing in Jesus, but if say they didn't believe in Jesus at all, how would they really know if their life was better or not? They can really only imagine and would not know. No. I"m suggesting I'm feeling much better without it. My life, as in I have more things or have less bills, is not necessarily better, but my mental faculties, my outlook...all of that is better without it. I grant, though, if you want to argue, some people do better with it. I'd just point out some of us seem to do better without it. You do realize you're not in a position to know how people who don't believe in or know about Jesus or the teachings of our Church might feel, don't you? You've been taught about him and his teachings in our Church so now you can never go back to not knowing about any of those things. Even if you don't believe in those things now, if you ever believed in your past, then you still have the perspective of a believer within you. You can flick it on and off like a switch in your mind, whereas someone who has never heard about Jesus or been taught the things we teach about him and from him in our Church don't know any of that because they have never been exposed to it. So you're stuck with the mindset of a believer even if you choose to flick that switch off for the present moment, and for however long you want to leave that switch off. Edited January 15, 2020 by Ahab 1
pogi Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: Why would it be better? Some believers in Christ have it easy compared to others. Some believers in Christ have it worse compared to others. In your case how would you possibly know if you'd have it worse off or better of if you did not believe in Christ? Because it's Good News. It doesn't matter how difficult or breezy my life is, good news is better than bad news or no news. "Having it easy" in mortality is the wrong measuring stick to be using. There are no promises of an easy life. 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: What is meant by murmur? I don't think I murmured (a soft, indistinct sound made by a person or group of people speaking quietly or at a distance). Quote 2: COMPLAIN, GRUMBLE https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/murmur 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: Of course, only for those who are want to believe. Thank you for acknowledging that at least. 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: You've misunderstood. I'm saying any given person wouldn't know if their life would be better or not if they believed or didn't believe. Yet you proclaim that your life would be "so, so much better" if your "knowledge from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away". How am I misunderstanding? 4 hours ago, stemelbow said: No. I"m suggesting I'm feeling much better without it. That wasn't the question. Edited January 15, 2020 by pogi
The Nehor Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: Because it's Good News. It doesn't matter how difficult or breezy my life is, good news is better than bad news or no news. "Having it easy" in mortality is the wrong measuring stick to be using. There are no promises of an easy life. Far too often I think I would prefer the promise of an easy life over the gospel.
stemelbow Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 1 hour ago, pogi said: Because it's Good News. It doesn't matter how difficult or breezy my life is, good news is better than bad news or no news. "Having it easy" in mortality is the wrong measuring stick to be using. There are no promises of an easy life. Thank you for acknowledging that at least. Yet you proclaim that your life would be "so, so much better" if your "knowledge from the Book of Mormon were suddenly taken away". How am I misunderstanding? That wasn't the question. I was being smart alecky when I responded with the so so much better. In truth though I've been on the whole much better without feeling the need to see the BoM as scripture or true.
Teancum Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 12 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Have siblings? Ask them about any childhood experience in which you were all included and find out how different "reality" can be. This is a poor argument. A vision of God and Jesus would be so shocking and overwhelming that most would remember it in specific detail. Similar to what you were doing on 9/11 or the day JFK was killed. 1
Teancum Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 3 hours ago, Ahab said: You do realize you're not in a position to know how people who don't believe in or know about Jesus or the teachings of our Church might feel, don't you? You've been taught about him and his teachings in our Church so now you can never go back to not knowing about any of those things. Even if you don't believe in those things now, if you ever believed in your past, then you still have the perspective of a believer within you. You can flick it on and off like a switch in your mind, whereas someone who has never heard about Jesus or been taught the things we teach about him and from him in our Church don't know any of that because they have never been exposed to it. So you're stuck with the mindset of a believer even if you choose to flick that switch off for the present moment, and for however long you want to leave that switch off. I disagree. You certainly can talk to people that are not believers as well as read what they have to say. I just finished one such book and it was very enlightening to see what the author, an atheist, has to say about many of the world's religious traditions as well as the idea that so many of us make decisions based on faith rather than empirical evidence which decisions control so much of how we live in what we do in the life we know we have vs a life we imagine we will have. Very interesting ideas. And in fact one who has been a believer but no longer is has keen insight that the believer and life time nonbeliever has. They understand well both the positive and deleterious impact on their lives of having been a believer from the perspective of a now nonbeliever.
Ahab Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: I disagree. You certainly can talk to people that are not believers as well as read what they have to say. I just finished one such book and it was very enlightening to see what the author, an atheist, has to say about many of the world's religious traditions as well as the idea that so many of us make decisions based on faith rather than empirical evidence which decisions control so much of how we live in what we do in the life we know we have vs a life we imagine we will have. Very interesting ideas. They may be interesting but if that atheist has never believed then he can not see from the perspective of a believer, regardless of how many details he may know the believer believes in. As a never believer in something specific he doesn't know what it is like to believe it. 2 minutes ago, Teancum said: And in fact one who has been a believer but no longer is has keen insight that the believer and life time nonbeliever has. They understand well both the positive and deleterious impact on their lives of having been a believer from the perspective of a now nonbeliever. That was my point. Someone who at one time believed something but no longer believes it can still see from the perspective of a believer even though he then no longer believes. It's like a switch that can be flicked in that person's mind, enabling that person to go from believer to one who no longer believes, and vice versa, because he has had the experience of believing that in the past.
ksfisher Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 15 minutes ago, Teancum said: This is a poor argument. A vision of God and Jesus would be so shocking and overwhelming that most would remember it in specific detail. Similar to what you were doing on 9/11 or the day JFK was killed. Those are interesting comparisons. My mother was still in high school when President Kennedy was assassinated. I recall watching the news about 9/11 on TV and talking to my wife about her brother who worked in New York at the time, but I really don't remember anything else about the day. Memory is a very peculiar thing. I'll remember the strangest things, but completely forget about things that other people think I should remember. As for a vision of God and the Savior, I don't think I could say what another person would or would not remember about such an experience. 4
Tacenda Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 32 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Those are interesting comparisons. My mother was still in high school when President Kennedy was assassinated. I recall watching the news about 9/11 on TV and talking to my wife about her brother who worked in New York at the time, but I really don't remember anything else about the day. Memory is a very peculiar thing. I'll remember the strangest things, but completely forget about things that other people think I should remember. As for a vision of God and the Savior, I don't think I could say what another person would or would not remember about such an experience. Can you say what you would do?
Teancum Posted January 15, 2020 Posted January 15, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Those are interesting comparisons. My mother was still in high school when President Kennedy was assassinated. I recall watching the news about 9/11 on TV and talking to my wife about her brother who worked in New York at the time, but I really don't remember anything else about the day. Memory is a very peculiar thing. I'll remember the strangest things, but completely forget about things that other people think I should remember. As for a vision of God and the Savior, I don't think I could say what another person would or would not remember about such an experience. You don't think you would remember if one or two personages appeared to you? I can tell you in great and specific detail what I was doing the morning of 9/11. And I have never varied it. Edited January 15, 2020 by Teancum 2
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