Teancum Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 58 minutes ago, pogi said: Faith should be scorned? So if I give an example of how science and a "reasoned approach" has led to bad and even dangerous outcomes, should this be used to criticize and "scorn" that approach? Because people can use good tools (faith or science/technology) in bad ways, doesn't make the tool bad. So much for the much heralded tolerance! I am just discussing. I am not stating law or rules. I am not trying to be intolerant. You may be able to give examples of the failure of science but faith by its definition has no evidence ever yet prevails over so many things for so many people and leaders in government when there is evidence to dispute it. Science can fail us and we should criticize it when it does and then do better. It is not beyond criticism. But for the faithful, faith is. Edited January 17, 2020 by Teancum
Nacho2dope Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Teancum said: I had a very lengthy post that I did about faith and other reasons why I find faith and the way culture treats it as problematic. It took me sometime to draft. But when I posted it the site here went down and I lost it. Maybe that was fate or something else. Don't have time to redo the post now. But quickly i am talking about faith is a different way. Let's take faith of Christians, and say EV Christians or Latter day Saints. It is amazing to me that so many of both of those groups support one of the most amoral presidents we have ever had. And why do they do it? Because based on their evidence lacking faith they think God brought this man to power to do things for our country that they, because of faith, think that is what God wants. This is a great example of why faith can be bad and dangerous and should be criticized and even scorned. Thanks for the response. My dad voted for and still thinks that Bill Clinton was the greatest president who ever lived and also votes for Hilary. He is an active member of the Church and said that God would never put a man like Trump in office. Unfortunately, people of all religious backgrounds say or do things sometimes that we don't agree with and that can be frustrating. I think the same argument about Trump being amoral can be made about almost every president. I don't want to turn this into a political he said she said, it is just what I believe. I think there are people who are not religious who support Trump, are you just upset when someone who believes in a certain religion states they support Trump?
Teancum Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 16 minutes ago, Nacho2dope said: Thanks for the response. My dad voted for and still thinks that Bill Clinton was the greatest president who ever lived and also votes for Hilary. He is an active member of the Church and said that God would never put a man like Trump in office. Unfortunately, people of all religious backgrounds say or do things sometimes that we don't agree with and that can be frustrating. I think the same argument about Trump being amoral can be made about almost every president. I don't want to turn this into a political he said she said, it is just what I believe. I think there are people who are not religious who support Trump, are you just upset when someone who believes in a certain religion states they support Trump? I was using this as an example of how faith works for many. Not to make it political. 1
Tacenda Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Bede said: Why can't it be real? I am certain that in any given ward there are a variety of personal beliefs, from the hardliners to the very progressive. I think the tent is wide in most wards and stakes, and where it isn't we as individuals should work to make it so. To the best of my knowledge, all the church asks is that you don't actively campaign against it. It says nothing about particular beliefs of Book of Mormon geography; in fact, it says very little about particular beliefs in general. The majority of teachings are about loving one another, family, service, and the most important thing of all, the atonement. In any case, I personally believe it can be real, and I operate as if it is. And where it isn't, I am willing to stay and work to make it so. That's great! Your post reminded me of this guy on a recent Mormon stories podcast. He recently returned to the church, I guess he had a road to Demaska experience. He says he wants to help those of us that don't believe or have struggles with belief to still attend and his goal is to get people on board. I listened to most of the podcast but fell asleep. If you have the time listen to the last two segments, I believe. He is so well spoken and I'm very impressed by his thought process and his journey back to the church. https://www.Mormon*******.***/podcast/joe-tippetts-rejoining-the-lds-church-after-resigning/ Intro: Join us today as we interview Joe Tippetts, who resigned from the Mormon Church in 2014 after losing his faith. Joe shares what it was that prompted his return to Church activity and in 2019, Joe was re-baptized into the Church again. Having been on both sides of the fence, his passion now is building bridges between Mormons and post-Mormons.
pogi Posted January 17, 2020 Posted January 17, 2020 3 hours ago, Teancum said: I am just discussing. I am not stating law or rules. I am not trying to be intolerant. You may be able to give examples of the failure of science but faith by its definition has no evidence ever yet prevails over so many things for so many people and leaders in government when there is evidence to dispute it. Science can fail us and we should criticize it when it does and then do better. It is not beyond criticism. But for the faithful, faith is. When it comes to science, you are right to throw out the bathwater and keep the baby. When it comes to religion however, you are trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater. In other words, you criticize faith as a whole, because of the mistakes of some - but you don't do the same with science. It is a double standard. 2
Teancum Posted January 18, 2020 Posted January 18, 2020 21 hours ago, pogi said: When it comes to science, you are right to throw out the bathwater and keep the baby. When it comes to religion however, you are trying to throw out the baby with the bathwater. In other words, you criticize faith as a whole, because of the mistakes of some - but you don't do the same with science. It is a double standard. Perhaps. Let me mull this over. I find you thoughtful and maybe we can discuss further. Possibly on another thread? 1
pogi Posted January 20, 2020 Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/18/2020 at 2:29 PM, Teancum said: Perhaps. Let me mull this over. I find you thoughtful and maybe we can discuss further. Possibly on another thread? I’d be happy to if you want to start it.
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