bluebell Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, Calm said: I suspect she complained about them and he fed her what he thought she would want to hear…and apparently she did want to hear it given how far she went down that hole, taking it to her kids were zombies. Whether he was thinking towards the future, hoping to cut her ties with them so he could have her without them as baggage…I don’t think he thought it through that far ahead. According to a stepson, even before she got into this stuff, she would take off all day when she was supposed to be caring for him and his brother as well as her own children. Add how she used her kids as a way to hurt her exhusband and manipulate the court in the custody cases she was involved in, my guess is her kids were accessories to her and Chad saw that disconnect and meant to strengthen it to provide himself more opportunities to be with her without them. Ugh. Link to comment
smac97 Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Calm said: The “family history” (sick that he has twisted it so) is the first we are aware of it showing up, I believe. I suspect she complained about them and he fed her what he thought she would want to hear…and apparently she did want to hear it given how far she went down that hole, taking it to her kids were zombies. Whether he was thinking towards the future, hoping to cut her ties with them so he could have her without them as baggage…I don’t think he thought it through that far ahead. According to a stepson, even before she got into this stuff, she would take off all day when she was supposed to be caring for him and his brother as well as her own children. Add how she used her kids as a way to hurt her exhusband and manipulate the court in the custody cases she was involved in, my guess is her kids were accessories to her and Chad saw that disconnect and meant to strengthen it to provide himself more opportunities to be with her without them. I suspect Vallow’s lawyer will spend time making sure Daybell is seen as the instigator of “the kids are possessed”, so they can claim the final step of requiring their deaths was his too, even if Alex Cox was the one who most likely killed them. In the future I suspect we will see some attempt to sort out and analyze Daybell's "system." I further suspect that this system will end up being a mélange of various concepts that center on the relationship between Daybell and Vallow, such as superficial, selective and self-serving application of Latter-day Saint doctrines, superficial selections from other faith traditions (reincarnation, for example) popular "new age" mysticism, extreme "prepper" sentiments / ideosyncratic (and highly syncretic) apocalypticism, narcissism and sociopathy, anti-government and "sovereign citizen" ideology (see, e.g., here and here), pop culture influences (e.g., the zombie stuff), and a substantial sexual component (see, e.g., here). Thanks, -Smac Edited April 12, 2022 by smac97 3 Link to comment
pogi Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 34 minutes ago, smac97 said: popular "new age" mysticism, While there is definitely an element of mysticism, I wouldn't categorize it as the "new age" sort. They are more religious extremists grounded in absolutist ideas/ideals, which is about as far as you can get from "new age mysticism". They are definitely absolutists, rather than relativists. Link to comment
Calm Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, pogi said: which is about as far as you can get from "new age mysticism". More like the TV version of New Age. The energy healing stuff often has ‘new age’ elements. Their ‘demonology’ is like something he got reading about D&D or video games with alignments. Malachite is a healing rock/crystal for them. (I think she bought wedding rings with malachite). His rating system sounds like jedis versus sith lords, only there are equal numbers of masters. Edited April 12, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
smac97 Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 2 hours ago, pogi said: Quote popular "new age" mysticism While there is definitely an element of mysticism, I wouldn't categorize it as the "new age" sort. As I see it, "new age" is a fairly nebulous term. I guess what I had in mind here is his "unique scoring system, assigning every person a 'light' or 'dark' rating to designate whether that individual had made a contract with God or Satan," and "scor{ing} people on a 'vibration' scale, with those deemed as having high-enough 'vibrations' to have special powers, or be 'translated.'" "Vibrations" seem totally outside of Latter-day Saint thought, but fit rather easily into "New Age" thinking: Quote The New Age movement in America can be best understood as both a discourse community and a new social movement. As a discourse community, New Age denotes a group of people who embrace a shared core of social and religious values and speak about those values in a common language. As a new social movement, New Age denotes a loose grouping of individuals who have broken with the dominant capitalistic and Judeo-Christian ethos of late-twentieth-century America and who seek a new way of approaching personal spirituality, the natural order, gender, work, consumption, and the body. ... New Age spirituality generally accepts the existence of a universal energy that differs from more common forms of energy such as heat and light. This universal energy is believed to undergird and permeate all existence and has been called many names in different cultures, including prana, mana, odic force, orgone energy, and ch'i. For New Agers this energy is a natural energy that follows natural laws like electricity and is part of a subtle realm of vibration that sustains all life-forms. I think parts of "AVOW" certainly come across as new-agey, or influenced by "new age" concepts. Same goes, I think, with Daybell: The Daybells and Latter-day Saint Apocalypticism Quote Latter-day Saint prophecy has appeared in several news cycles over the past decade. The most persistent question has been whether Latter-day Saints have (or sometimes whether they should) see Mitt Romney as the fulfillment of early LDS prophecy. In 2015, news items reported on a surge of prepper activity among Latter-day Saints who believed the second coming was near. Most recently, there has been attention on two Latter-day Saint prophecy enthusiasts who have become associated with child disappearances and suspicious deaths. ... There was a religious angle to this story. Representative articles classified Chad as a “cult leader” and Lori as a “doomsday mom.” Lori and Chad’s enthusiasm for the last days seemed to be at the core of their relationship. Chad had become well-known in circles of Latter-day Saint prophecy enthusiasts for his novels on the end times. (Think an LDS version of Tim LaHaye’s Left Behind series for evangelical Christians.) He later revealed that he was a visionary who had used the genre of fiction to write about the things he had seen. Lori Vallow had participated in podcasts for Preparing a People, an organization that held conferences about the last days. Over time, reports have contained further details about the couples’ private beliefs. Allegedly, Lori believes she is “an immortal,” who in a previous life was married to the Book of Mormon prophet, Moroni. Allegedly, Chad thinks he can reveal individuals’ past lives and whether they were good or “dark” in these incarnations. ... In my own research, I have focused on the initial flourishing of apocalyptic prophecies in the mainstream Latter-day Saint tradition, and their subsequent marginalization. Chad Daybell’s apocalyptic ideas are born of this nineteenth-century visionary culture. In the early twentieth century, Church leaders began to discourage a preoccupation with the end times, as well as the circulation of prophecies that originated with lay members of the faith. ... Most individuals involved in this movement would consider themselves fiercely loyal to the church and its leaders. When popular visionary Julie Rowe was excommunicated in 2019, her audience dwindled rapidly. Chad Daybell would consider himself faithful to the Church of Jesus Christ. If we are speaking about the prophecy subculture as a whole, it would be very difficult to claim any of these visionaries are “cult leaders,” at least not in the same category as David Koresh or Jim Jones. This is a marketplace for consumers of prophecy, not a religious organization in the traditional sense. Because the prophecy subculture developed partly in isolation from the larger Latter-day Saints community, they have drawn on a variety of influences from the surrounding culture. Ideas are pulled from proponents of new age spirituality and prepper communities. Visionaries like Daybell demonstrate the convergence of these impulses that have formed the current syncretic prophecy enthusiast subculture. For instance, Daybell has revealed that his prophetic gifts began with a near-death experience in his youth. Near-death experiences have become a common theme in American prophetic writings, but not in the official discourse of the Church of Jesus Christ. It's all a mish-mash, to be sure. Thanks, -Smac 1 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 3 hours ago, smac97 said: In the future I suspect we will see some attempt to sort out and analyze Daybell's "system." I further suspect that this system will end up being a mélange of various concepts that center on the relationship between Daybell and Vallow, such as superficial, selective and self-serving application of Latter-day Saint doctrines, superficial selections from other faith traditions (reincarnation, for example) popular "new age" mysticism, extreme "prepper" sentiments / ideosyncratic (and highly syncretic) apocalypticism, narcissism and sociopathy, anti-government and "sovereign citizen" ideology (see, e.g., here and here), pop culture influences (e.g., the zombie stuff), and a substantial sexual component (see, e.g., here). Thanks, -Smac Looks like they are both degenerates. Link to comment
pogi Posted April 12, 2022 Share Posted April 12, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, smac97 said: As I see it, "new age" is a fairly nebulous term. I guess what I had in mind here is his "unique scoring system, assigning every person a 'light' or 'dark' rating to designate whether that individual had made a contract with God or Satan," and "scor{ing} people on a 'vibration' scale, with those deemed as having high-enough 'vibrations' to have special powers, or be 'translated.'" "Vibrations" seem totally outside of Latter-day Saint thought, but fit rather easily into "New Age" thinking: I think parts of "AVOW" certainly come across as new-agey, or influenced by "new age" concepts. Same goes, I think, with Daybell: The Daybells and Latter-day Saint Apocalypticism It's all a mish-mash, to be sure. Thanks, -Smac You are right that it is a fairly nebulous term. When I think of new-age people though, I think of extreme moral relativism - which is the opposite extreme of the Daybell's who seem to believe in extreme moral absolutism. "Reincarnation", and "vibrations" are most certainly terms stolen from new-age ideas though. Quote Major Tenets of the New Age ...A final major tenet is moral relativism. New Agers think in terms of gray, rather than black or white. Denying the law of non- contradiction, New Agers will often believe that two conflicting statements can both be true. They will therefore teach that "all religions are true" and "there are many paths to God." http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/newage.html That doesn't seem to describe their moral ideology at all. They are like the extreme moral absolutist version of New Age. I don't think New Agers would want to be associated with them, and I don' think they would want to be associated with New Agers either - they are WAY ABOVE that (along with everything else too). Edited April 12, 2022 by pogi Link to comment
smac97 Posted April 12, 2022 Author Share Posted April 12, 2022 57 minutes ago, pogi said: You are right that it is a fairly nebulous term. When I think of new-age people though, I think of extreme moral relativism - which is the opposite extreme of the Daybell's who seem to believe in extreme moral absolutism. "Reincarnation", and "vibrations" are most certainly terms stolen from new-age ideas though. Reincarnation is incompatible with Latter-day Saint doctrine, but they apparently buy into that, too. And zombies? Numbered scoring of "light" and "dark" for individual's spirit? Nobody is claiming that Daybell and Vallow were erudite, or that their beliefs were internally consistent and coherent. 57 minutes ago, pogi said: That doesn't seem to describe their moral ideology at all. I'm not sure they have a "moral ideology." Instead, they've mashed together a variety of ideas and concepts, several of which conflict with each other. 57 minutes ago, pogi said: They are like the extreme moral absolutist version of New Age. I don't think New Agers would want to be associated with them, and I don' think they would want to be associated with New Agers either - they are WAY ABOVE that (along with everything else too). I think pretty much all Latter-day Saints don't want to be associated with them, either. And I wasn't claiming an association. I think Daybell and Vallow have just borrowed concepts from all over. Thanks, -Smac Link to comment
Bane Posted April 15, 2022 Share Posted April 15, 2022 On 4/12/2022 at 12:01 PM, Calm said: His rating system sounds like jedis versus sith lords, only there are equal numbers of masters. To me it seems plucked wholesale from an old HBO show titled "Carnivale." Link to comment
Calm Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/04/lori-vallow-daybell-does-not-enter-a-plea-during-arraignment/ https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/04/prosecutors-have-60-days-to-file-death-penalty-notice-in-lori-vallow-daybell-case-as-trial-date-is-set/ Looks like the cases are going to be severed because CD waved his right to a speedy trial and they decided sometime in 2023, January maybe but LVD’s is starting Oct 11th because she did not waive her right. That is unfortunate in my view, but smart tactics if her attorneys have enough time to prepare. I don’t understand how Prior is going he didn’t have enough time when he has been the attorney all along, but the relatively new attorney, Archibald, thinks they can do it. I think her case is suppose to take longer too (10 weeks vs 6 iirc, but it has been awhile so I may be off). Edited April 22, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 This shows you all how much I have been following the case (not much, aside from peeking in here from time to time and reading the odd reference included here), but I was surprised to learn that she has been charged with Tammy Daybell's murder, as well. Link to comment
longview Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: This shows you all how much I have been following the case (not much, aside from peeking in here from time to time and reading the odd reference included here), but I was surprised to learn that she has been charged with Tammy Daybell's murder, as well. It seems apparent that Lori and Chad worked together in a conspiracy to do away with their respective spouses. She involved her brother Alex Cox in killing her fourth husband Charles Vallow. I believe she gradually warmed up Chad into giving Tammy slow increments of poison. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: This shows you all how much I have been following the case (not much, aside from peeking in here from time to time and reading the odd reference included here), but I was surprised to learn that she has been charged with Tammy Daybell's murder, as well. I am pretty sure it is a new charge, I have lost track of what they actually charged her with earlier and what was anticipated she be charged with though. It is understandable that you would be surprised, it is the one death that could have been reasonably done by just one person (death of Vallow had multiple witnesses, CD couldn’t have disappeared the kids from her place and bury them at his without her awareness and Alex Cox’s phone shows him at the right place in the right time). They likely have communications discussing Tammy’s death between them. Unless it is not unusual to tack on charges they can’t really prove for one defendant, but can for another if they are involved in a conspiracy. Edited April 22, 2022 by Calm 1 Link to comment
Kenngo1969 Posted April 22, 2022 Share Posted April 22, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, longview said: It seems apparent that Lori and Chad worked together in a conspiracy to do away with their respective spouses. She involved her brother Alex Cox in killing her fourth husband Charles Vallow. I believe she gradually warmed up Chad into giving Tammy slow increments of poison. ... Makes sense. After all, Tammy was "dark," right (like, "Dark 35", maybe?) One thing's for sure: After seeing that diagram, I wouldn't want to get within a Country Mile of either one of them! Edited April 22, 2022 by Kenngo1969 Link to comment
katherine the great Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 On 4/22/2022 at 11:05 AM, longview said: It seems apparent that Lori and Chad worked together in a conspiracy to do away with their respective spouses. She involved her brother Alex Cox in killing her fourth husband Charles Vallow. I believe she gradually warmed up Chad into giving Tammy slow increments of poison. That picture though: Sister Stacey died of complications from uncontrolled type one diabetes. I don’t think Lori Vallow had anything to do with that particular death. 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted April 24, 2022 Share Posted April 24, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, katherine the great said: That picture though: Sister Stacey died of complications from uncontrolled type one diabetes. I don’t think Lori Vallow had anything to do with that particular death. The only issue with it was the family was encouraging her in paranoia to use some extreme, unproven methods that than led to her long term deterioration as well as some health issues of her daughter if her ex husband’s account was correct. And Alex Cox used her credit card hours after her death, but she could have given it to him and he just wasn’t thinking. I don’t remember if anyone explained how we even know about his purchase, was it in a police report or was a family story for some reason. Plus Alex Cox’s autopsy was finished and pronounced natural causes (pulmonary embolism iirc, he had been a long distance trucker even though he hadn’t been working recently). There is a lot of speculation that there was a poison that wasn’t typically tested for, but given the circumstances I would think such tests would likely be done except for the really unusual stuff. Edited April 24, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
Calm Posted May 3, 2022 Share Posted May 3, 2022 (edited) They will go for death penalty if she is convicted. Hoping to keep trials together https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/05/prosecutors-seek-death-penalty-against-lori-vallow-daybell-ask-judge-to-hold-trials-together/ Edited May 3, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
Calm Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 (edited) Daybell and Daybell’s trial will be together in January, rather than hers earlier in October. I approve. https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/05/lori-vallow-daybell-and-chad-daybell-will-be-tried-together-in-january-judge-rules/ Edited May 27, 2022 by Calm Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 She's smiling way too much for being responsible for many deaths, IMO. Link to comment
bluebell Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 16 minutes ago, Tacenda said: She's smiling way too much for being responsible for many deaths, IMO. Is there no sound? Link to comment
Tacenda Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 1 minute ago, bluebell said: Is there no sound? I had sound but it was kind of low and couldn't hear it well when I had noise in the background. Link to comment
bluebell Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 2 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I had sound but it was kind of low and couldn't hear it well when I had noise in the background. Ok. I'm not hearing anything on the video so wanted to check since it seemed weird to not have any sound. And she is obviously crazy. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 25 minutes ago, bluebell said: Ok. I'm not hearing anything on the video so wanted to check since it seemed weird to not have any sound. And she is obviously crazy. Seems like it to me. Has she been deemed competent to stand trial? Link to comment
bluebell Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Seems like it to me. Has she been deemed competent to stand trial? I believe she has. I think because she even though she's deluded, she's mentally capable of knowing that what she was doing/did was against the law. Lots of different kinds of crazy out there. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2022 Share Posted August 16, 2022 1 minute ago, bluebell said: I believe she has. I think because she even though she's deluded, she's mentally capable of knowing that what she was doing/did was against the law. Lots of different kinds of crazy out there. The line between crazy and evil is sometimes pretty blurry. 1 Link to comment
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