Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

Maybe, the only ones who are tired of it are the ones who are consistently trying to defend the patriarchy.  Just a little food for thought.

Empty calories. Ad hominem.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Empty calories. Ad hominem.

If we are going to be using food analogies now, can I claim "gristle" for use of the phrase "Feminist Agenda"?

[BlueDreams]

57 minutes ago, pogi said:

I agree with a lot of this, but I think that we need to acknowledge that while some men will be triggered by almost anything (we can't please everyone), I think you would likely acknowledge that there is still a line that you wouldn't and shouldn't cross.  Some outfits would absolutely be inappropriate for you to wear to work because of what it says about you, and how it might influence men - and we absolutely are accountable for not crossing that line.  I get it, the line is different for everyone, and you can't read minds, and you are not accountable for how some men might react etc., but I think we all know that there is still a line.  I think we all know and understand that, which is why I am confused at the seeming lack of any moral accountability for how we dress on the part of some women.  I don't think that it is true that we can say and/or do whatever we want, and if it affects others negatively, that we will never be accountable for our influence.  If it is true in other areas, why not with how we dress?   It absolutely is our burden to be our brothers keeper, to the best of our ability and according to our own conscience.  This in no way shifts the burden from the man in managing and being accountable for his own thoughts, words, and actions. 

I think this is where a lot of people keep getting hung up.  The general idea I keeping hearing on this thread from women is that because we can't please everyone, we shouldn't try to please anyone - that we are not accountable or responsible in ANY way for how we might influence or trigger others through our dress.   I think that is wrong. 

The bold are the parts I don’t agree with. I dress based on the cultural customs for what is expected in an therapy office setting regardless of gender relarions: professional but slightly casual. And that it fits my temple garments. The end. With older couples i veer a little more professional to make up for a young looking face. If the cultural custom for my job was to wear scuba gear, i’d be wearing scuba gear. I do not take into consideration what may “influence men.” I’m tired of placating an impossible standard, so I haven’t thought about that in years. And real-life implications means that the “standard” is perpetually shifting and often individually contrived. Even in the best circumstances, it’s felt invasive and like having your body up for social scrutiny while trying to do mundane tasks. So I’m done trying to fit it. Breastfeeding is also uncomfortable for a number of men (and my mother, for that matter). I don’t care.  They can squirm while i feed my baby in the way I’m comfortable with and work through their own cultural baggage surrounding s*xual boundaries and ideas of propriety.

“I am glad you acknowledge that, but why does that apply in every areas except how we dress?”

(on my cellphone) 

there’s a fine line between helping, enabling, and inevitably handicapping. A lot of this “helping” the men out to me in real-life implications have veered toward enabling and handicapping. Instead of learning to manage themselves they end up relying on others to keep them in check. They learn that their thoughts are hard to control. They assume their desires are more potent than women’s and thus need extra hands (and greater skirt lengths) to curb it. There’s little/no accountability, little/no self-determination, and an excessive burden on women who are expected to “help them” by maintaining a dress code and manner of conduct not really expected of them (at least not to the extent women are often monitored for the same behavior). It also keeps many women who buy these messages From embracing their own s*xuality and being comfortable with men. Oh, and i believe it’s not all that scriptural, our current interpretation. 
 

When I picture teaching my future sons about this, i picture helping normalize the human body and to recognize human autonomy. To respect people in their choice of dress.. and how to generally treat people. I’d teach my daughters the same. That others may expect or assume they “should” look a certain way...but if they feel comfortable and that they are living up to the values we’ve taught them, it doesn’t matter. Helping in this virtue looks the same as helping in others. Teach the principal and let them grow govern themselves. I don’t have a need to monitor them past that. 
 

with luv, 
BD 

[rpn]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

There are no circumstances under which a youth should receive guidance about proper dress and deportment from a parent (or, perhaps, an aunt, or grandmother, or a YW president, or perhaps even a bishop)?

I'd say that there are very few times when anyone should say anything to someone at church who is dressed in a way that makes them uncomfortable.   Parents have an obligation to teach (which includes helping them understand that what they choose to wear others read things into.  Having done that, under inspired instruction, parents should probably then limit their objections to refusing to buy objectionable clothes (or as I did for several years until one of my teens realized they'd make money doing it, buy back the objectionable items so it was no longer in their wardrobe),  and/or refusing to allow them to keep inappropriate items in our home and/or transport them to buy such items.    

Leaders and members at church have an obligation to love and overlook everything they don't like.  Yes they can teach the FTSOY standards.   But they shouldn't be interpreting them for individuals.   There is NO doctrine of exactly what is acceptable to God when.  In any group of leaders/members there are big differences in what clothing they deem acceptable or not.   And it is the individual's job to learn figure out their own discipleship. 

Yes, if I were a leader, I might stash somewhere a real classy bolero or shawl in case anyone wanted to borrow it.  But I'd only ask if someone looked like they were cold (or if the Holy Ghost specifically told me to do so and I confirmed that it was He and not my own feelings.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Raingirl said:

I’ve never known a woman to buy petite for the reasons you state. It really doesn’t make any sense

It occurs to me now you are saying there is no difference say in waist or hip size with petite, but only the length of leg and maybe length of crotch to waist.  If that is the way garments are currently sized, I get your complaint.  The women that complained to me were some time ago iirc and were very, very slender (painfully so for one as getting up in years, iirc, and she was freezing all the time).  It may have to do with a particular cut.  I found out the same size in a low waist it tighter than the size in a regular waist.  I may be misremembering petite for when they meant smaller regular size.

My mom gets petite now because she is shrinking big time, and didn't like the fit of regular as she has put on too much weight since she sits in her walker all the time and lost the ability to control her appetite...plus dangerous in other ways to diet...anyway.  I tried on some of her 'no thanks' as we home-shopped (buy, return if don't like) for the right size by trial and error (she tells me she wants large when she wants tiny, hard to pin down what will work so lots of returns...or nots if she has cut tags or waistbands to make them fit)  and it felt smaller in fit than the same size in regular.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

dup

Edited October 25, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

dup

Edited October 25, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

47 minutes ago, rpn said:

were a leader, I might stash somewhere a real classy bolero or shawl in case anyone wanted to borrow it

I think this is a nice idea, something attractive rather than the hall of shame treatment.

[Tacenda]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

It occurs to me now you are saying there is no difference say in waist or hip size with petite, but only the length of leg and maybe length of crotch to waist.  If that is the way garments are currently sized, I get your complaint.  The women that complained to me were some time ago iirc and were very, very slender (painfully so for one as getting up in years, iirc, and she was freezing all the time).  It may have to do with a particular cut.  I found out the same size in a low waist it tighter than the size in a regular waist.  I may be misremembering petite for when they meant smaller regular size.

My mom gets petite now because she is shrinking big time, and didn't like the fit of regular as she has put on too much weight since she sits in her walker all the time and lost the ability to control her appetite...plus dangerous in other ways to diet...anyway.  I tried on some of her 'no thanks' as we home-shopped (buy, return if don't like) for the right size by trial and error (she tells me she wants large when she wants tiny, hard to pin down what will work so lots of returns...or nots if she has cut tags or waistbands to make them fit)  and it felt smaller in fit than the same size in regular.

I jusy bought the longer length garment that goes to the mid calf, last week. I like that I'm not constantly worrying if lines show on my thighs, and sometimes even the markings show through. I wore leggings today with a longer sweater and it was nice not worrying about any lines, and they kept me cozy warm. Would your mom like these? They are the stretch cotton ones, I believe.

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think this is a nice idea, something attractive rather than the hall of shame treatment.

I distinctly remember while in my younger teens showing up to play church volleyball and the ref or someone, made me go home and change out of a tank that wasn't immodest. I felt so embarrassed, luckily my mutual teacher came to my aid and hugged me and made me feel a lot better, but will never forget how bad I felt. 

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I jusy bought the longer length garment that goes to the mid calf, last week. I like that I'm not constantly worrying if lines show on my thighs, and sometimes even the markings show through. I wore leggings today with a longer sweater and it was nice not worrying about any lines, and they kept me cozy warm. Would your mom like these? They are the stretch cotton ones, I believe.

Thanks for offering the idea, but she now only wears tops these days as she has to full time wear of incontinence aides and the extra layer makes it difficult for her.  I got her some like that when she was younger, all cotton in the "thermal cut" fashion.

I probably should get some for my cold days...it's more feet, but life legs are warm it can help the neuropathy in the feet.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I distinctly remember while in my younger teens showing up to play church volleyball and the ref or someone, made me go home and change out of a tank that wasn't immodest. I felt so embarrassed, luckily my mutual teacher came to my aid and hugged me and made me feel a lot better, but will never forget how bad I felt. 

If it could be approached more as "styling up" adding to what was nice to make it better, I think it could be helpful.  Also a church rule only leaders could talk to the girls or boys about such things in public so it would be so obvious.  

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Thanks for offering the idea, but she now only wears tops these days as she has to full time wear of incontinence aides and the extra layer makes it difficult for her.  I got her some like that when she was younger, all cotton in the "thermal cut" fashion.

I probably should get some for my cold days...it's more feet, but life legs are warm it can help the neuropathy in the feet.

Yes, I understand, my mom wasn't able to wear bottoms either in the care center because of incontinence, just her garment top. Bless you and bless your mom through all of this. 

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Empty calories. Ad hominem.

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

If we are going to be using food analogies now, can I claim "gristle" for use of the phrase "Feminist Agenda"?

It was in response to a silly comment that was supposed to be “food for thought.”

Of course you can have “gristle. ” Can I can have milk, honey, and locusts for the patriarchy? Oh...and pomegranates?

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Has anyone read Wendy Shalit’s book A Return to Modesty?

Quote

“The best protection against rape, stalking, and domestic violence is to raise men who both understand that women are different, and would never dare take advantage of this difference.” 

 

[cherryTreez]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I distinctly remember while in my younger teens showing up to play church volleyball and the ref or someone, made me go home and change out of a tank that wasn't immodest. I felt so embarrassed, luckily my mutual teacher came to my aid and hugged me and made me feel a lot better, but will never forget how bad I felt. 

I wouldn't have gone back. I was told to change my shirt playing basketball. I pointed out that half the boys/ men were shirtless and other girls had on less. I was told that it looked different on me. My dad and  leaders came to my defense. My crime? You could see the straps to my sports bra around my neck and it let the boys know that I was wearing a bra.   It was a joke. They wondered why most of the youth in that ward went inactive.  I could tell you why. It's stuff like this. My friends were horrified by it and hurt too because they had bra straps showing as well.  

[mfbukowski]

On 10/23/2019 at 3:53 PM, pogi said:

While I totally agree with this, I think both ends need to be addressed - not just one or the other.  If a woman knowingly influences the opposite sex through inappropriate dress, she is accountable for her influence.  The man is also accountable for his reaction.  We have influence in all of our actions, dress is just one aspect of what we are accountable for in how we influence others for good or bad. 

Why do women buy shoes with 6 inch heels?

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, filovirus said:

The problem doesn't stem from the running community. Rarely does a male runner say a female should not run in just a sports bra. And I agree.

The complaints come from outside the running community. People who don't understand that it is appropriate attire for hot sweaty outdoor events.

It's more that we just complain with each other that some people just don't understand.

One of the biggest complaints is that they (women wearing sports bras only) feel as if they are being gazed at incessantly by "creeps". And complaints of the obnoxious cat calls they get all the time that they usually don't get while wearing a shirt.

Honest question...

If this is so, why the disparity in the modesty of men’s and women’s sport and cheerleading wear? Do the ladies sweat more? Indoor events can be hot and sweaty, too.

[bsjkki]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Honest question...

If this is so, why the disparity in the modesty of men’s and women’s sport and cheerleading wear? Do the ladies sweat more? Indoor events can be hot and sweaty, too.

I agree. The men should wear short skirts too...for their own comfort. That is a completely sexist double standard. 

[Bernard Gui]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I agree. The men should wear short skirts too...for their own comfort. That is a completely sexist double standard. 

They do in the cabar toss. 

Compare the gear for cheerleading, volleyball, track, tennis, soccer, gymnastics, skating, beach volleyball, and some others sports. They have to expose themselves more than the men. The ladies suffer from the double standard. Why is that?

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[bsjkki]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

They do in the cabar toss. 

Compare the gear for cheerleading, volleyball, track, tennis, soccer, gymnastics, skating, beach volleyball, and some others sports. They have to expose themselves more than the men. The ladies suffer from the double standard. Why is that?

We did this like 3 years ago...I know, you think women should compete in burkas. Because, really,  there are no historical differences in women’s sporting attire and the sexes should dress exactly the same.

But, this thinking is where the ‘free the nipple’ campaign came from so I guess, you would sign on? 🤔

Edited October 25, 2019 by bsjkki

[sunstoned]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I distinctly remember while in my younger teens showing up to play church volleyball and the ref or someone, made me go home and change out of a tank that wasn't immodest. I felt so embarrassed, luckily my mutual teacher came to my aid and hugged me and made me feel a lot better, but will never forget how bad I felt. 

This is very sad, and I am sorry you had to go through this.  No church leader should act this way. It is shaming, and it is wrong.

[rchorse]

The real issue in church culture (I've found no actual doctrine to support it), in my opinion, is that women are portrayed as spiritual and men as carnal. I can't count how many times I've heard in priesthood and other meeetings that women are just plain superior to men when it comes to spiritual things.

The main problem that I see with this is that it just ends up excusing bad behavior by men. Organizations, especially religious ones, typically get out of people what they expect from them. In American church culture, at least, women are expected to be perfect and righteous, while the expectation of men is that they are lazy and can't get anything right. In my last ward, we assigned the Elders Quorum to handle the ward Christmas party, and everyone in the ward was convinced it would be a disaster because you just can't rely on the men for things like that. In reality, it turned out just as well as any other Christmas party.

I think the whole modesty discussion is a symptom of the larger problem mentioned above. Those loser men just can't handle their thoughts, so it's up to the women to fix it again. Men need to take responsibility for their own thoughts and requiring extreme levels of modesty from women just handicaps them, as has been said.

We need to start expecting more of men in the church and in society and not just offload responsibility to the women.

[Bernard Gui]

Some missionaries in my foreign mission (including myself) experienced unwanted sexual harassment. For the Elders, It usually came from young ladies around our age or from prostitutes, mostly in the form of looks, immodesty, suggestive comments, gestures, propositions, or some touching. It was relentless for some including one of my companions who had Robert-Redford-Hollywood good looks. For most Elders this was an annoyance, but to be truthful, some were flattered by this kind of attention that they had never experienced back home. Unfortunately, for a few it became a problem that resulted in some serious consequences.

The sister missionaries faced far more unwanted, aggressive, and frequent harassment, especially if they were fair with light colored hair. Sometimes this limited their hours, the areas in which they could serve, or required them to be in the company of elders. My daughter Bellalindissima had similar negative  experiences when she lived in Europe for a year (not a missionary). I don’t recall any sister ever saying that this was a pleasant thing for them. 

One of my sons served his mission in Boulder, Colorado. It was not uncommon when tracking in the University area to have the door opened by coeds who thought it was funny to flash the Elders. “Eyes right, Companion!” 

Although my experiences cannot compare with those of the sisters I knew or other women who face harassment, I did get a small taste of what it must be like. I came away resolved never to treat girls or women with such disrespect,  and hopefully to teach my sons proper behavior.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui