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I'm Struggling With Whether There is Any Value Here


USU78

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The editorial and moderation policies of MDD, after the change in ownership and change in direction, have created a spirit that I struggle with, and I imagine I'm not the only one.

AntiMormon screeds and pro-homosexuality propaganda fill the posts, with ad hominem permitted if the recipient is a faithful poster or safely dead Mormon of some fame, and stamped out if the recipient is one of those perveying the screeds and pro-homosexuality propaganda.

I've coped with this by disappearing for months at a time, but I'm wondering if, this time, I would be better off just leaving for good and finding somewhere else where discussions are useful.

I'm reminded of Sunstone in the early days, when Paul Toscano, a professional colleague at the time, invited me to participate in the Mormon Antidefamation League project.  He represented it to me as an opportunity to respond to unfair press stories and other publications being used to defame the Church and curtail missionary work and, if possible, whittle away at the edges of the body of believers.  I attended a meeting or two, but left sorely disappointed when the only topic ever discussed was clergy malpractice.  If you've been around long enough, you'll remember what came of that.  I ended up leaving Sunstone altogether.  This place feels like that.

Thoughts?

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I agree with  your position. Certain topics, which you have brought up, appear to have the support of mods and thus take a decidedly more liberal bent than I appreciate. Consequently, and strong defense of exact doctrinal positions can get you banned from a thread.

Would I leave?  Like you, I have dropped my participation level considerably. I step back in and participate when I choose to do so, but I don't read most threads and the topics discussed have lost their interest to me.

I don't know of an alternative site affiliated with LDS. I have started to participate with Crises, a conservative Catholic ezine that allows comments. There is no real discussion, but I appreciate the articles and I read some of the comments and participate when I feel like it. Nothing like this site used to be.

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10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

The editorial and moderation policies of MDD, after the change in ownership and change in direction, have created a spirit that I struggle with, and I imagine I'm not the only one.

AntiMormon screeds and pro-homosexuality propaganda fill the posts, with ad hominem permitted if the recipient is a faithful poster or safely dead Mormon of some fame, and stamped out if the recipient is one of those perveying the screeds and pro-homosexuality propaganda.

I've coped with this by disappearing for months at a time, but I'm wondering if, this time, I would be better off just leaving for good and finding somewhere else where discussions are useful.

I'm reminded of Sunstone in the early days, when Paul Toscano, a professional colleague at the time, invited me to participate in the Mormon Antidefamation League project.  He represented it to me as an opportunity to respond to unfair press stories and other publications being used to defame the Church and curtail missionary work and, if possible, whittle away at the edges of the body of believers.  I attended a meeting or two, but left sorely disappointed when the only topic ever discussed was clergy malpractice.  If you've been around long enough, you'll remember what came of that.  I ended up leaving Sunstone altogether.  This place feels like that.

Thoughts?

I am part of the problem I'm sure. This place needs balance and maybe it's not there? You and others are the balance, so I hope you don't go far. I'm sorry, I hope for different threads to happen to keep that wonderful balance. I go on here because of the wonderful format and it's a place to get some answers from the faithful side and not all critics, even though I appear to be that. I'm in the middle, often times I long for the old days of being a believer and having everything be rosy.

I think the problem may be that there aren't the scholars or other more faithful members on any other board but here, or am I wrong? 

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57 minutes ago, bluebell said:

From my perspective, it looks like anyone who can follow the rules doesn't come up against the mods.  Those who struggle with not not following the rules are the ones that get reported.  If there is a problem with balance on the board and it's skewing more "critic" hopefully it isn't because lot of critics on the board have managed to be able to be critical without crossing civility lines, while a lot of faithful posters struggle more with that.

Whatever the issues, I don't think the mods are the problem as we get both critic and faithful posters accusing the mods of being nicer to 'the other side.'  If both sides thinks that, then it's probably a good sign that both sides are actually being treated the same and the posters are just not very self aware.

But whatever the problem is, I'm all for people doing what they believe is best for them.  If this board isn't it then that probably means that it's time to move on.  Hopefully not because I enjoy all of the posters that we have on here but people have to do what they believe is right.

Definitions:  the rules are subject to human interpretation, and provocations, like certain posters' incessant drumming their disdain of prophetic counsel and perceived aggrieved status into threads without regard to whether what they're saying is inapposite or on point, get ignored.  

There is, moreover, this:  thread bans, warnings, and thread closings are rarely explained, and then, or so it appears, only when the one being banned or warned is in the privileged class.

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9 hours ago, USU78 said:

........................

Thoughts?

Sounds like a bad case of the summer doldrums, the dog days of August, and some ennui thrown in for good measure.  Hey, but nothing has really changed, and here's the evidence:

Elise Solé, “Church leader fired for secretly photographing woman inside H&M dressing room,” Yahoo Lifestyle, Aug 20, 2019, online at https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/church-leader-fired-for-secretly-photographing-woman-inside-hm-dressing-room-202624903.html ,
"A Mormon church member was fired for covertly photographing a woman in a dressing room inside H&M."

The richest person in Utah is Gail Miller, at $1.5 billion – her late husband was Larry Miller. https://www3.forbes.com/billionaires/the-richest-person-in-every-state-2019/10/  .
 

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8 hours ago, USU78 said:

Definitions:  the rules are subject to human interpretation, and provocations, like certain posters' incessant drumming their disdain of prophetic counsel and perceived aggrieved status into threads without regard to whether what they're saying is inapposite or on point, get ignored.  

There is, moreover, this:  thread bans, warnings, and thread closings are rarely explained, and then, or so it appears, only when the one being banned or warned is in the privileged class.

I am a privileged class now? Woohoo!

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I think one’s level of social skill will have an impact on how their thoughts are received in any format.   Sometimes it’s not about the content but rather in the way it is presented. 

I find value here in learning about myself.  Sometimes I’m out of line and am quickly corrected.  I can learn from this. 

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:30 AM, USU78 said:

The editorial and moderation policies of MDD, after the change in ownership and change in direction, have created a spirit that I struggle with, and I imagine I'm not the only one.

AntiMormon screeds and pro-homosexuality propaganda fill the posts, with ad hominem permitted if the recipient is a faithful poster or safely dead Mormon of some fame, and stamped out if the recipient is one of those perveying the screeds and pro-homosexuality propaganda.

I've coped with this by disappearing for months at a time, but I'm wondering if, this time, I would be better off just leaving for good and finding somewhere else where discussions are useful.

I'm reminded of Sunstone in the early days, when Paul Toscano, a professional colleague at the time, invited me to participate in the Mormon Antidefamation League project.  He represented it to me as an opportunity to respond to unfair press stories and other publications being used to defame the Church and curtail missionary work and, if possible, whittle away at the edges of the body of believers.  I attended a meeting or two, but left sorely disappointed when the only topic ever discussed was clergy malpractice.  If you've been around long enough, you'll remember what came of that.  I ended up leaving Sunstone altogether.  This place feels like that.

Thoughts?

Hi USU. You mean you don't enjoy always being wrong?

It would make me less inclined to stay if you go.

I will never forget your compassionate response to my post on "the duty parade". My hearty thanks for your empathy.  

All the best, whatever you decide. God bless.

Rory

   

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Sometimes, I think some mods worry about where a thread may end up. About a month or two ago, I did something I don’t get to do often. I sat up at my dinning room table, and created a thread. Because of my back problems, it is very difficult to post paragraphs of comments or opinions. So, I wrote, re-read, wrote more, re-read and wrote more, in an effort to make a defense of the Church, it’s policies concerning a few issues. I took great care in making sure that I did not post inflammatory remarks, or go to far left or to far right in my opinions. I even researched data, and drew from personal and other information an opinions. When I felt as if I was evenhanded in my approach, waiting until the next day, to read it again with fresh eyes, I posted. 

The thread was locked that day, without any replies. When it was closed, I did not receive a warning, I was not chastised for having submitted it, nothing happened, it just got closed. So, I guess the mod who closed it felt that it was not a topic that needed to be discussed. Someone might have complained, I am not sure. It was due to subject matter, as many thread weekly discuss the issue, so it remains a mystery to me. Someone did PM me, wanting to know what happened, but I did not know. But, I don’t have the burden of policing the board, so I will not judge. I wish I had saved the thread on my laptop, so I could go back and see it, or try to change parts of it, but I can’t. I seldom ever post on my laptop, it is just too taxing for me, sitting in straight back chairs. 

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On 8/20/2019 at 11:39 AM, Storm Rider said:

I agree with  your position. Certain topics, which you have brought up, appear to have the support of mods and thus take a decidedly more liberal bent than I appreciate. Consequently, and strong defense of exact doctrinal positions can get you banned from a thread.

Would I leave?  Like you, I have dropped my participation level considerably. I step back in and participate when I choose to do so, but I don't read most threads and the topics discussed have lost their interest to me.

I don't know of an alternative site affiliated with LDS. I have started to participate with Crises, a conservative Catholic ezine that allows comments. There is no real discussion, but I appreciate the articles and I read some of the comments and participate when I feel like it. Nothing like this site used to be.

Hi Storm Rider. In 2017 or 2018, I started a thread titled "My New Mormonism", to reflect my perception that beliefs and practices that were unacceptable for Mormons here in 2004, had become acceptable in a very short time, less than a generation. I have never tried to know what it means, but I am pretty sure it isn't good to display hubris as I supposedly did. It seems that few participants here will admit that there has been a seachange, which in my alleged hubris, I still believe. 

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6 hours ago, 3DOP said:

It seems that few participants here will admit that there has been a seachange,

There has definitely been a change in how things are talked about, imo, but overall I would say a number of doors have been opened, but few have been shut.

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11 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Storm Rider. In 2017 or 2018, I started a thread titled "My New Mormonism", to reflect my perception that beliefs and practices that were unacceptable for Mormons here in 2004, had become acceptable in a very short time, less than a generation. I have never tried to know what it means, but I am pretty sure it isn't good to display hubris as I supposedly did. It seems that few participants here will admit that there has been a seachange, which in my alleged hubris, I still believe. 

Dear Friend, it was not hubris, but rather a prophetic announcement of reality. I think there are a number of reasons why this exists. It is difficult to discuss because it is so multifaceted and layered in reasons depending upon the individual. 

What is most sad to me is that so many of those who claim a faith crisis are those who doubt their own spiritual experiences. They have forgotten the times their hearts burned within them as the ancient disciples described on their road to Emmaus. They have forgotten all of the things that Joseph and so many of the prophets have accomplished by the hand of God firmly guiding them.

Most fundamentally, I think two things have occurred:  they have closed themselves off from the Holy Spirit to work in areas of truth and focused on that which comforts them. Too many humans find comfort in protest, comfort in problems, and comfort being a victim. 

On another note, this experience among the Latter-day Saints has not occurred unilaterally, but can be found in most Christian religions. Catholicism has undergone a sea change, but it started much earlier and though many members have identified it, the Catholic Church as a whole still has not. The Protestants are still befuddled and striving to find their own answers.

None of this is new, novel, or unexpected. These days were prophesied of old. 

As an aside, I have come to intensely dislike the use of the word "love". Far too often those that have no understanding of the term use it to dress up those things, actions, and thoughts that are anything but love. Love is not about personal or mutual satisfaction, but about what brings man closer to God.

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12 hours ago, Calm said:

There has definitely been a change in how things are talked about, imo, but overall I would say a number of doors have been opened, but few have been shut.

I agree....you express things so well!!

Also, regarding the OP....

I think each of us has to decide if we find any value in participating on this forum.  I tend to come and go depending on what I have going on in real life.  I enjoy reading and learning from others here and I also enjoy discussing certain topics.  I do tend to avoid certain threads and maybe that would help you to try, USU78?

I do feel the mods do an excellent job here and I think they are fair.  I appreciate the time they are willing to put in as well.

Edited by ALarson
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Smac97 was compelled to walk back parts of a perfectly innocuous post in a highly contentious thread last week in which he was the recipient of some pretty snotty attacks, IMO.  I reached out to him to express my sorrow at the unfairness, etc.  He's more patient that I, though my impatience probably arises from having participated in the wars going back to the late 70s, and online from the early '90s.  This treatment of him under those circumstances was beyond beyond.  After stewing on my exchange with him and his treatment, I decided to post the OP.

I know a seachange when I feel it in my bones, and this feels like that.   It's no longer me watching my then friend Peggy herding the then Sunstone cats-of-all-stripes while she struggled with her own feelings of ambivalence while I struggled with mine.  This is feeling, like I posted above, like enemy territory, with the mods and the mob on one side, with the precious few on the other.  I don't much respect what's happened, and how things are.  Room full of passive-aggressive narcs and mother hens.  Yuck.

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20 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Smac97 was compelled to walk back parts of a perfectly innocuous post in a highly contentious thread last week in which he was the recipient of some pretty snotty attacks, IMO.  I reached out to him to express my sorrow at the unfairness, etc.  He's more patient that I, though my impatience probably arises from having participated in the wars going back to the late 70s, and online from the early '90s.  This treatment of him under those circumstances was beyond beyond.  After stewing on my exchange with him and his treatment, I decided to post the OP.

I know a seachange when I feel it in my bones, and this feels like that.   It's no longer me watching my then friend Peggy herding the then Sunstone cats-of-all-stripes while she struggled with her own feelings of ambivalence while I struggled with mine.  This is feeling, like I posted above, like enemy territory, with the mods and the mob on one side, with the precious few on the other.  I don't much respect what's happened, and how things are.  Room full of passive-aggressive narcs and mother hens.  Yuck.

Mother hens?  Do you care to elaborate? 

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26 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Smac97 was compelled to walk back parts of a perfectly innocuous post in a highly contentious thread last week in which he was the recipient of some pretty snotty attacks, IMO.  I reached out to him to express my sorrow at the unfairness, etc.  He's more patient that I, though my impatience probably arises from having participated in the wars going back to the late 70s, and online from the early '90s.  This treatment of him under those circumstances was beyond beyond.  After stewing on my exchange with him and his treatment, I decided to post the OP.

I know a seachange when I feel it in my bones, and this feels like that.   It's no longer me watching my then friend Peggy herding the then Sunstone cats-of-all-stripes while she struggled with her own feelings of ambivalence while I struggled with mine.  This is feeling, like I posted above, like enemy territory, with the mods and the mob on one side, with the precious few on the other.  I don't much respect what's happened, and how things are.  Room full of passive-aggressive narcs and mother hens.  Yuck.

Do you think the mods have gone anti-Mormon? 

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37 minutes ago, MorningStar said:

Do you think the mods have gone anti-Mormon? 

No.  I think they are so worried about the attackers being offended that they go overboard motherhenning the more faithful types.  This place used to be unapologetically friendlier to faithfulness, with the attackers nowadays getting quite a long leash, especially if they've been around for a while.  Now the faithful are compelled to go overboard in their innocuousness.  They are utterly defanged.

And, yes, the overall effect is to create a venue not particularly friendly to the faithful poster.  Smac97, of all people, being stagemanaged so he doesn't offend people who're being decidedly snotty to him.  Imagine.

Edited by USU78
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44 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Mother hens?  Do you care to elaborate? 

See my next prior post.

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9 minutes ago, USU78 said:

No.  I think they are so worried about the attackers being offended that they go overboard motherhenning the more faithful types.  This place used to be unapologetically friendlier to faithfulness, with the attackers nowadays getting quite a long leash, especially if they've been around for a while.  Now the faithful are compelled to go overboard in their innocuousness.  They are utterly defanged.

And, yes, the overall effect is to create a venue not particularly friendly to the faithful poster.  Smac97, of all people, being stagemanaged so he doesn't offend people who're being decidedly snotty to him.  Imagine.

I only saw where he and another poster worked things out on their own (which was good).  Did Smac97 get banned or reprimanded by a mod?  If so, I missed it!

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15 hours ago, Calm said:

There has definitely been a change in how things are talked about, imo, but overall I would say a number of doors have been opened, but few have been shut.

Calm. I trust you won't be embarrassed, but you once asked me, perhaps on a whim, to have a Mass said for you. I don't think you knew what that meant. It probably meant more to me. But it was done. A Traditional Latin Mass! It gives me hope. It couldn't be for nothing. God bless you now and always. 

John XXIII famously opened the windows of the Church to the world. The world is so great isn't it? It so leads us to truth and goodness and everything we could ever want (sarcasm, not very PC).Vatican II opened "windows" in the 60's. Modern Mormons opened "doors" in the 2010's. 50 years late, but not much difference. Now "Catholics" and "Mormons" can believe whatever they want and behave however they want. Who is anybody to judge? We have a pope who won't genuflect before the Holy Eucharist (the Lord Jesus Christ) on one knee, but goes down on both knees to politicians (Communists/Globalists) he admires.   

I don't need to, but I if pressed, I would follow Bruce McConkie and Dan Petersen ahead of Jorge Bergoglio. I like Old Mormonism, but I have Eternal Rome. The democracy of the dead. Hundreds of good dead popes against one living infidel. Let all souls vote, dead or alive. I know that I know the result. Gay Francis and his queer cronies lose. Bergoglianism could never build the monuments of Rome or the liturgical splendour that has supplied the spiritual nourishment of saints for 2,000 years. I support Mormons who oppose Pope Francis over Catholics who support him. I don't say it saves sacramentally, but I would have more extra-sacramental hope for pre-Vatican II Mormonism, than post Vatican II Catholicism.     

Have I lured you out of hiding Miserere Nobis? You are welcome to "balance me out" (correct my rant). But except that you are a little bit of a lefty politically...I don't see how you can't agree with much/most of what I say. But correct me. I am listening.   

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