More Word of Wisdom Discussion!

[HappyJackWagon]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Would following it with exactness make you less healthy, do you think?

I tend to think that the portion of the Word of Wisdom that was made a criterion for temple worthiness was made so for a wise reason and was in accordance with God's will concerning the matter. We may not see this now, but I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.

It's not just a health law, in other words.  In my humble opinion.

I don't think it would make me less healthy, but it sure didn't make me more healthy either.

I see it as advice that I should consider. I believe "wisdom" comes into it when I consider the best way to apply it in my life.

 

[Deserthead]

It is not meet to be commanded in all things

But it is nice to have general guidence from the general authorities on the matter

[HappyJackWagon]

24 minutes ago, Deserthead said:

It is not meet to be commanded in all things

But it is nice to have general guidence from the general authorities on the matter

The revelation provides general guidance.

The GA's add opinion and preference and call it commandment.

[SettingDogStar]

22 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The revelation provides general guidance.

The GA's add opinion and preference and call it commandment.

That's the interesting thing. I've heard a lot of "in the spirit of the word of wisdom..XYZ cannot be eaten, drunk, or consumed" throughout the years. While I agree that their is a spiritual principle to be learned from the reception of this revelation, It's curious to me to see people using it to justify not drinking alcohol. I don't drink but the word of wisdom itself says that many beers, ales, and malts are A-Okay so we can't really say "the word of wisdom bans alcohol."

I have no problem with modern Prophets placing a more firm ban on alcohol and such, but don't cite the Wow as your source.

Unless they retroactively alter the wording of the revelation (which I also don't have a direct issue with) or add a new one we are altering the words of the scriptures. We don't need to use the Wow as our source if we would just cite the prophet (Heber J. Grant I believe?) and the revelation that finally put a total restraint on alcoholic consumption.

Edited August 19, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Would following it with exactness make you less healthy, do you think?

I tend to think that the portion of the Word of Wisdom that was made a criterion for temple worthiness was made so for a wise reason and was in accordance with God's will concerning the matter. We may not see this now, but I'd be surprised if that wasn't the case.

It's not just a health law, in other words.  In my humble opinion.

I have learned that most of the things prohibited are in fact unhealthy- and I also understand the benefits of obedience in this area for its own sake.

In retrospect I wish I had obeyed it better

If you take "hot drinks" to mean caffeinated  drinks- caffeine is definitely bad for you in increasing blood pressure and heart rate.  Over time that is not good.

If you take it literally "hot drinks" over a certain temperature range do in fact damage the esophagus and can lead to cancer.

The benefits of being vegetarian are becoming more clear daily.

Alcohol and tobacco?  Really?  Who needs it?

Long story a little bit shorter- I have lived without the WOW and know all the bad stuff you are not supposed to do, and I know them, unfortunately,  well.   I ain't going back EVER.

I have a good friend with a very high calling in church who has been a perfect earnest "choir boy" type of member for a lifetime, never taking anything outside the WOW.   He looks 20 years younger than his age.  He is 72 or so and looks like he is in his early 50's

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

The revelation provides general guidance.

The GA's add opinion and preference and call it commandment.

Holding the keys, the president has the ability to essentially make it a commandment to enter the temple - that's how I look at it. Otherwise, I would not feel a sinner to drink iced tea. But I do know that when I drank tea, it stained my teeth. I only liked it with quite a bit of sugar - coffee too - so now that I try to keep my sugar intake down, I am glad I am not habituated to it. I do drink other warm herbal teas from time to time though.

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

It's a benefit, to be sure, but c'mon, who among us is avoiding meat in the summer and only consuming it during winter or times of famine as the revelation instructs?

I think I do a pretty good job of eating meat 'sparingly'. I do buy it when I go camping -- sadly, only a few times per year -- and when I'm travelling to/from the temple each month and need to eat fast food. Otherwise, I would buy it less than 1x per month. 

But I'm 100 per cent fine with the fact that those who hold the keys over entry to the Church and the temple have made those things forbidden by the Word of Wisdom the minimum standard for those seeking these blessings.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I will admit that I no longer follow the modern interpretation of the WoW with exactness.

When you interview others for temple recommends, do you expect them to do so?

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Deserthead said:

It is not meet to be commanded in all things

But it is nice to have general guidence from the general authorities on the matter

I'd appreciate it more if the interpretation made any sense.  Coffee bad, hot cocoa good.  Iced tea bad, soda good.  Pure nonsense.

[Hamba Tuhan]

30 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I'd appreciate it more if the interpretation made any sense.  Coffee bad, hot cocoa good.  Iced tea bad, soda good.  Pure nonsense.

Precisely. It's like that whole crazy thing about lamb good, pork bad. Linen or wool good, linen plus wool bad. Pure nonsense.

By the way, where does the most up-to-date (or any) interpretation of the Word of Wisdom teach that hot chocolate or soft drink is good?

Edited August 20, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[JLHPROF]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Precisely. It's like that whole crazy thing about lamb good, pork bad. Linen or wool good, linen plus wool bad. Pure nonsense.

Pretty much.  Obedience above all.  First law of heaven.

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

When you interview others for temple recommends, do you expect them to do so?

Back in the day when I interviewed people, I followed it with exactness and expected them to as well.

12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Holding the keys, the president has the ability to essentially make it a commandment to enter the temple - that's how I look at it. Otherwise, I would not feel a sinner to drink iced tea. But I do know that when I drank tea, it stained my teeth. I only liked it with quite a bit of sugar - coffee too - so now that I try to keep my sugar intake down, I am glad I am not habituated to it. I do drink other warm herbal teas from time to time though.

IMO- God establishes commandments. Men don't. A man might say something is a commandment, but that doesn't mean it is.

[RevTestament]

5 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Back in the day when I interviewed people, I followed it with exactness and expected them to as well.

IMO- God establishes commandments. Men don't. A man might say something is a commandment, but that doesn't mean it is.

A requirement to enter the temple is not a commandment from that perspective. As I said, I don't believe drinking a cup of tea is a sin. It will just keep me out of the temple. Whether that is appropriate is another question. Is that what we want to do? Does the president have that power? I believe he does. Does he have the power to require you to wear clothes to be able to enter the temple? I believe he does. He holds the keys of authority to run the Church, and guide the priesthood.  

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

A requirement to enter the temple is not a commandment from that perspective. As I said, I don't believe drinking a cup of tea is a sin. It will just keep me out of the temple. Whether that is appropriate is another question. Is that what we want to do? Does the president have that power? I believe he does. Does he have the power to require you to wear clothes to be able to enter the temple? I believe he does. He holds the keys of authority to run the Church, and guide the priesthood.  

Yes, the president has the power to set and enforce policies, such as temple worthiness expectations, BUT that doesn't mean it's a God-given commandment. IMO- I think we should be concerned about conflating commandments from God with policies, preferences, or commandments of men, even if they have the power to enforce them for the church.

[CV75]

33 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

A requirement to enter the temple is not a commandment from that perspective. As I said, I don't believe drinking a cup of tea is a sin. It will just keep me out of the temple. Whether that is appropriate is another question. Is that what we want to do? Does the president have that power? I believe he does. Does he have the power to require you to wear clothes to be able to enter the temple? I believe he does. He holds the keys of authority to run the Church, and guide the priesthood.  

26 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, the president has the power to set and enforce policies, such as temple worthiness expectations, BUT that doesn't mean it's a God-given commandment. IMO- I think we should be concerned about conflating commandments from God with policies, preferences, or commandments of men, even if they have the power to enforce them for the church.

I think the personal qualities of a saint in Zion makes it evident that God wants us to abide by that which He has given His servants to administer through delegation (as in the phrase “as seemeth him/you good”) as well as by revelation. For example, see D&C 124; 58:51; 48:3; 60:5; 62:5. The attributes are the same, and these come by way of the companionship of the Holy Ghost through faith and obedience to the baptism, confirmation and subsequent ordinances. Discerning the difference between what is delegated and revealed is inconsequential to becoming like Christ. What "seemeth Him good" and what He commands are the same, including opportunities for His servants to delegate and His disciples to abide those decisions, as they will have to learn to do what seemth them good as gods as well.

[RevTestament]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Yes, the president has the power to set and enforce policies, such as temple worthiness expectations, BUT that doesn't mean it's a God-given commandment. IMO- I think we should be concerned about conflating commandments from God with policies, preferences, or commandments of men, even if they have the power to enforce them for the church.

Whether you wish to call it a policy or a commandment the effect is the same. I think I made it clear that I don't consider not drinking tea as a commandment from God. I do believe that is given as a promise that the Lord will bless those who will follow. One promise is those who follow will run and not be weary, and walk and not faint. Even though I do not regard drinking tea as a sin, I do believe the Lord has blessed me, and kept this promise. I have terribly flat feet, which used to give me lots of problems - I had pain with walking and terrible shin splints trying to play basketball. Since being fully dedicated to the gospel, I can honestly say these problems have simply gone away. I did faint once but that was because I forgot my water, and had a bit of heat exhaustion. I walk much more than I ever did without pain. In fact I removed my arch supports from my shoes. So I regard the promise as literally real. These promises are also extended in the temple, so I have to say that I don't see a policy of requiring one to follow the word of wisdom to enter the temple as being inappropriate. I too don't like calling it a commandment, because that confuses it with commandments of the Lord involving sin, but otherwise I am fine with the current status of things.

[HappyJackWagon]

7 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

Whether you wish to call it a policy or a commandment the effect is the same. I think I made it clear that I don't consider not drinking tea as a commandment from God. I do believe that is given as a promise that the Lord will bless those who will follow. One promise is those who follow will run and not be weary, and walk and not faint. Even though I do not regard drinking tea as a sin, I do believe the Lord has blessed me, and kept this promise. I have terribly flat feet, which used to give me lots of problems - I had pain with walking and terrible shin splints trying to play basketball. Since being fully dedicated to the gospel, I can honestly say these problems have simply gone away. I did faint once but that was because I forgot my water, and had a bit of heat exhaustion. I walk much more than I ever did without pain. In fact I removed my arch supports from my shoes. So I regard the promise as literally real. These promises are also extended in the temple, so I have to say that I don't see a policy of requiring one to follow the word of wisdom to enter the temple as being inappropriate. I too don't like calling it a commandment, because that confuses it with commandments of the Lord involving sin, but otherwise I am fine with the current status of things.

I'm glad those promises were fulfilled for you, but have you ever thought about all of the people for whom the "promise" was not kept? What about those people who have never smoked a cigarette in their life yet get lung cancer, or those who eat healthy, exercise regularly, and then die of a heart attack at age 35? Clearly the promise isn't kept universally. I heard someone in the temple once defend the universality of the promise being kept by saying something like "for those who die young, or have serious health conditions in this life, the promises of keeping the WoW will be realized in the next life." Really? So after resurrection people won't be sick, or die? Who would'a thunk it

But even so, if God makes a promise, and then others add to that promise additional restrictions, are they making new promises on God's behalf? Are they accountable if the promise isn't kept, or is God?

IMO the WoW is well-intentioned advice, some of which may be good, some bad, and some neither good or bad.

[RevTestament]

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm glad those promises were fulfilled for you, but have you ever thought about all of the people for whom the "promise" was not kept? What about those people who have never smoked a cigarette in their life yet get lung cancer, or those who eat healthy, exercise regularly, and then die of a heart attack at age 35? Clearly the promise isn't kept universally. I heard someone in the temple once defend the universality of the promise being kept by saying something like "for those who die young, or have serious health conditions in this life, the promises of keeping the WoW will be realized in the next life." Really? So after resurrection people won't be sick, or die? Who would'a thunk it

There is no promise that one won't die. Most of us on this earth die - with few exceptions to date - often from diseases or various maladies. There is no promise that we won't get diseases. There is a fair amount of air pollution in cities, and second-hand smoke is enough to cause cancer. I think the promise is not meant to apply to heavenly kingdoms but is a general promise that those who follow will be able to do the Lord's work. It doesn't mean a paraplegic will be cured and be able to walk. It doesn't mean I will never faint. It means the Lord will bless us to go about and do his work without being stopped by pain - until our appointed time is come. I have a son with my flat feet - even worse - surgery was recommended. He has had pain. He went on a mission, and has been able to do the work without undue pain. I think you are right - we will not suffer pain and maladies in the heavenly kingdoms in our immortal state.

 

19 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But even so, if God makes a promise, and then others add to that promise additional restrictions, are they making new promises on God's behalf? Are they accountable if the promise isn't kept, or is God?

IMO the WoW is well-intentioned advice, some of which may be good, some bad, and some neither good or bad.

I don't see any bad advice. I interpret the meat thing as saying to eat meat sparingly except in times of famine or drought. How would you eat meat sparingly then when there is nothing else? I believe modern medicine has found support for the assertions of the word of wisdom that certain things "are not good." 

[HappyJackWagon]

6 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

There is no promise that one won't die. Most of us on this earth die - with few exceptions to date - often from diseases or various maladies. There is no promise that we won't get diseases. There is a fair amount of air pollution in cities, and second-hand smoke is enough to cause cancer. I think the promise is not meant to apply to heavenly kingdoms but is a general promise that those who follow will be able to do the Lord's work. It doesn't mean a paraplegic will be cured and be able to walk. It doesn't mean I will never faint. It means the Lord will bless us to go about and do his work without being stopped by pain - until our appointed time is come. I have a son with my flat feet - even worse - surgery was recommended. He has had pain. He went on a mission, and has been able to do the work without undue pain. I think you are right - we will not suffer pain and maladies in the heavenly kingdoms in our immortal state.

 

I don't see any bad advice. I interpret the meat thing as saying to eat meat sparingly except in times of famine or drought. How would you eat meat sparingly then when there is nothing else? I believe modern medicine has found support for the assertions of the word of wisdom that certain things "are not good." 

Do you accept that there are people who follow the WoW with exactness, yet still are stopped by pain, or disease, or illness? Do you recognize that there are those who do faint, who can't walk without being weary after 2 steps? Sorry, it just doesn't hold up.

Regarding the "bad advice"- I wonder if in the era the WoW was given, there would have been less sickness and death if more people drank "hot drinks" from purified water. Boiling water seems like it could have purified water and maybe could have helped people be more healthy or even live longer lives, which is not to say they should have drinks so hot it burns their esophagus. It does seem like wisdom not to hurt oneself, but avoiding "hot drinks" doesn't seem too useful. I don't know. I haven't seen any massive health benefits from abstaining from coffee and tea

[Ahab]

On 8/19/2019 at 10:23 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

What about a cup of hot postum?

They don't make it anymore but Kaffree Roma is a pretty good substitute, made the same way from: Roasted Barley, Roasted Malt Barley, Roasted Chicory, and Roasted Rye.  (and that's all)

For beer and wine I prefer the versions without alcohol, or as little as possible, and I believe the "best" wine referred to in the scriptures, which our Lord made from water, was wine which had not fermented yet.

In some places it is just not safe to drink the water there.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

They don't make it anymore.......................................

You can still get Postum (since 1895) in the original or coffee flavors:

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

For beer and wine I prefer the versions without alcohol, or as little as possible, and I believe the "best" wine referred to in the scriptures, which our Lord made from water, was wine which had not fermented yet.

Jesus and Joseph Smith both drank actual alcoholic wine.  Jews sometimes added water to it.

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

In some places it is just not safe to drink the water there.

Where is that?  The Holy Land?

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

They don't make it anymore but Kaffree Roma is a pretty good substitute, made the same way from: Roasted Barley, Roasted Malt Barley, Roasted Chicory, and Roasted Rye.  (and that's all)

For beer and wine I prefer the versions without alcohol, or as little as possible, and I believe the "best" wine referred to in the scriptures, which our Lord made from water, was wine which had not fermented yet.

In some places it is just not safe to drink the water there.

On what do you base your supposition that the wine at Cana was unfermented?

[JAHS]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

They don't make it anymore but Kaffree Roma is a pretty good substitute, made the same way from: Roasted Barley, Roasted Malt Barley, Roasted Chicory, and Roasted Rye.  (and that's all)

For beer and wine I prefer the versions without alcohol, or as little as possible, and I believe the "best" wine referred to in the scriptures, which our Lord made from water, was wine which had not fermented yet.

In some places it is just not safe to drink the water there.

On what do you base your supposition that the wine at Cana was unfermented?

I think it probably was fermented.  The fact that the bridegroom was asked why he saved the "good" wine (John 2: 10) for the last is an indication that Jesus not only changed the water to grape juice, but that he also caused it to instantly turn to the fermented alcohol-containing beverage. It would still be a miracle to change water to grape juice; but it makes it even more so a miracle to change it to wine, which would normally require a lot of time for the fermentation process to produce the alcohol. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by JAHS

[Calm]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think it probably was.  The fact that the bridegroom was asked why he saved the "good" wine (John 2: 10) for the last is an indication that Jesus not only changed the water to grape juice, but that he also caused it to instantly turn to the fermented alcohol-containing beverage. It would still be a miracle to change water to grape juice; but it makes it even more so a miracle to change it to wine, which would normally require a lot of time for the fermentation process to produce the alcohol. 

And while grape juice tastes great, we are talking party value as in 'lifting of the spirits' and that takes fermentation. Grape juice just gives a sugar high.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Back in the day when I interviewed people, I followed it with exactness and expected them to as well.

Aren't you currently serving as a stake president?