More Word of Wisdom Discussion!

[smac97]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Quote

So you don’t think that Brigham Young or the leading quorums are prophets?

I do.

I dislike the hypocrisy with which Brigham Young is honored. 

Not sure how "hypocrisy" enters into the picture.

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Members reject huge amounts of his discourses, label them as opinions, and assign blame for many early doctrines they disavow today.

And then call him a prophet.

"Huge amounts of his discourses"?  Not sure that's accurate.

I do not define Brigham Young principally by his errors and shortcomings, since I think this virtues far exceeded them.

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

And I know the living prophet is the only one that matters. 

That is not correct.

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

But for some reason we don't see members disavowing a single word Presidents Hinckley or Monson ever taught. 

"Some reason" being that Presidents Hinckley and Monson did and said very different things than President Young?  That they benefited from the passage of time, and the added levels of prophetic precedents which they could utilize?

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

And nobody thinks anything President Nelson teaches today could possibly be wrong even though he could be disavowed 5 years from now.

That's not correct.  We do not (should not) subscribe to the notion of prophetic infallibility.

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Remember when members stood for truth instead of just agreeing with the current position? 

Yes.  God exists.  Jesus Christ is the Son of God who worked out a perfect Atonement for us.  The Priesthood is the power of God, some measure of which is delegated to God's servants.  The Restoration happened.  Joseph Smith was a prophet, as were/are his successors.  The Book of Mormon is the translation of an ancient record, provided to us through miraculous means.  The work of the Church, missionary work, temple work, humanitarian work, and so on, is the fulfillment of divine mandates.

I think members of the Church stand for these truths.  A lot.  

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Yeah, me neither.

I don't think such cynicism is warranted.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, blueglass said:

I'm ok with this.  If I understand correctly, through an evolutionary process, "a rough stone rolling" with environmental, societal corrections, and self-reflection with God's help the doctrines will become more pure and refined over time. 

Yes.  Our understanding of the doctrines will become more pure and refined.  The "principles" and "applications" will become better.

6 minutes ago, blueglass said:

I think you are saying that with medical science the word of wisdom could be updated yearly with some items added and others removed. 

I think the specifically proscribed items are probably off the table.

However, I think the "principles" and "applications" can be modified.  Consider, for example, the Church's position on medicinal marijuana.

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Which doctrines that Brigham taught do you honor and sustain?  surely some things he taught were good.  Brigham found a way to sift through the doctrine which Joseph taught and his behavior.  In his response to a preacher's railings and ad hominem attack against Joseph, he responded, "As to anything else I do not care. If he acts like a devil, he has brought forth a doctrine that will save us, if we will abide it. He may get drunk every day of his life, sleep with his neighbor's wife every night, run horses and gamble, I do not care anything about that, for I never embrace any man in my faith. But the doctrine he has produced will save you and me, and the whole world; and if you can find fault with that, find it. He said, "I have done."

I think the same can be said of the word of wisdom commandment of 1867.  If Brigham, and Woodruff, and many other prophets and apostles after 1867 did not follow the word of wisdom we should not judge them for the hypocrisy but rather sift out the weakness in ourselves and strive for better obedience to the pure doctrine. 

Beautiful way of putting things.  Thank you.

[JLHPROF]

Dupl.

Edited January 31, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Rain]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  He's the Presiding High Priest.  

God also knew that His people would live in an era where substance abuse is rampant.  And yet the Word of Wisdom says nothing about marijuana, or cocaine, or meth, or heroin, or GHB, and so on.  Why weren't any of these things mentioned in the Bible or Book of Mormon?  Or why haven't we received a canonized revelation about these substances?

The answer, I think, may be understood by applying the principles explained by Elder Bednar in two books, "Increase in Learning" and "Act in Doctrine."  This article summarizes things this way:

Here's a graphic that goes along with the above article:

To further illustrate here is  an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism entry on "Doctrine":

With these things in mind, how would you characterize the recent changes tot he CHI?  As a "doctrine," a "principle" or an "application?"

For me, I think the Word of Wisdom is "doctrine."  The "principles" we glean from the Word of Wisdom pertain to healthy living, abstaining from certain specified things (coffee, tea, tobacco), and so on.  The "application" of the Word of Wisdom will proscribe things like heroin and cocaine, because using such substances cannot be squared with either the "principles" or the "doctrine" arising from the Word of Wisdom. 

Elder Bednar asks in "Increase in Learning" not to "use the framework as a rigid set of definitions or as a formula that leads to 'correct' answers" about this, but I don't really see the Word of Wisdom as doctrine. I see the WofW and healthy living as basically the same thing and both principles. Abstaining from things in the WoW and without would be applications.

In his book he gives this example:

Doctrine: plan of salvation (before looking at the book now, the doctrine I was thinking is that we are God's children)

Principle: obedience (my thought: we want to progress and become like him) 

Applications: live the law of chastity, keep the word of wisdom, pay tithing, heed the counsel of the prophet. 

The WofW itself is not eternal or unchanging. It doesn't really pertain to eternal progression - it is more of a method to progress.

 

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Take pornography as another example.  Is pornography specifically prohibited in scripture?  No, but using it cannot be squared with the Law of Chastity (any more than using heroin can be squared with the Word of Wisdom).  Plus it has been specifically and emphatically and repeatedly condemned by modern prophets and apostles.  So the "application" of the Law of Chastity to the viewing of pornography is fairly clear-cut, even though we're speaking of principally of "application" (of a "principle" gleaned from a "doctrine").

And so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[blueglass]

46 minutes ago, Rain said:

Elder Bednar asks in "Increase in Learning" not to "use the framework as a rigid set of definitions or as a formula that leads to 'correct' answers" about this, but I don't really see the Word of Wisdom as doctrine. I see the WofW and healthy living as basically the same thing and both principles. Abstaining from things in the WoW and without would be applications.

In his book he gives this example:

Doctrine: plan of salvation (before looking at the book now, the doctrine I was thinking is that we are God's children)

Principle: obedience (my thought: we want to progress and become like him) 

Applications: live the law of chastity, keep the word of wisdom, pay tithing, heed the counsel of the prophet. 

The WofW itself is not eternal or unchanging. It doesn't really pertain to eternal progression - it is more of a method to progress.

 

 

I think the conduit of revelation opens up when we abide healthy living obedience to nutrition and exercise.

"receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;"

I also like the promise in Colossians 2:2-3

"that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, to reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and the knowledge of God's mystery, which is Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge."

[Stargazer]

On 8/20/2019 at 9:57 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You can still get Postum (since 1895) in the original or coffee flavors:

 

You can't it very easily in the UK. I just checked Amazon.co.uk and for a jar that size it said £42 !!!  One can find Caro easily, however.

[mnn727]

On 8/19/2019 at 11:59 AM, Stargazer said:

As for me, even if the Word of Wisdom was declared no longer mandatory for temple worthiness, I would still never, ever start smoking or using tobacco in any form.  I'd also not drink strong drinks, though I might drink a beer occasionally.  But I hope that the Four Horsemen of the WoW are never made voluntary.  I like things the way they are.

I'd have a glass of wine with dinner occasionally, its the only thing I actually miss from before I converted. Beer, coffee, and tea were never a temptation, and I had quit smoking 6 years before I started meeting with the missionaries.