Modern Polygamy Timeline & Purpose - not sure I follow...

[JLHPROF]

19 minutes ago, changed said:

Keturah - aka Hagar? Abraham did not have the full test - Isaac was not sacrificed, and Hagar did not raise Abraham's son with another man... not even Abraham was strong enough for that test... but in the case of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, not HF and HM, raised Jesus.  Jesus had other brothers, just as Jesus did....

We all have multiple sets of parents - earthly parents, and heavenly parents.  Imagine two other people raising your children.... I suppose that is what it is for all of us.

Keturah =Hagar is an old rabbinical tradition not evident in the text.

Remember Keturah bore Abraham six children long after the incident with the adult Isaac and Sarah's death.  And Ishmael was older than Isaac.

I don't know too many women that can have a son then 30 years later have 6 more children.

[Tacenda]

On 1/24/2019 at 9:49 AM, ttribe said:

I, for one, appreciate this admission from a defender of the faith.

Same! 

[Tacenda]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:20 PM, JLHPROF said:

The same as with any religion.

If you don't know it's true, don't follow it.  If you think Joseph was a lying, adulterous pedophile why be a Mormon?

No one sat down and told me anything about the church's history before I joined at 8. And since birth until my current age it's the only religion I've ever known, a little difficult to throw it all away without a fight.

[JLHPROF]

34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No one sat down and told me anything about the church's history before I joined at 8. And since birth until my current age it's the only religion I've ever known, a little difficult to throw it all away without a fight.

Understandable.  And I think everyone here has seen your struggle over the years.

But the point stands.  If you truly believe Joseph was those things you shouldn't be a Mormon.

It seems like we will always have members who want this or that disavowed by the Church. 

"Decanonize D&C 132, state that Joseph was all those things then we'll stay in the Church". 

It doesn't work.  Nobody expects you to throw everything out.  But Heber had it right when he said once someone loses their belief no outside influence will convince them to stay very long.  It's then entirely between them and God.

[why me]

On 1/21/2019 at 7:37 PM, SouthernMo said:

The timeline and reasons of how the idea of polygamy evolved into practice is perplexing.  It is causing me doubt how scriptures are to be obeyed, and how to trust the revelatory process.  Let's look at the pattern Joseph Smith followed:

March 1830 - Joseph Smith publishes the Book of Mormon (supposedly scripture) which contains commandments from God.  The only discussion of polygamy is found in Jacob 2, which clearly condemns the practice.  However, there is a provision given for exceptions: only to 'raise up seed' if God commands it.

The Gospel Topics Essay on Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo states that "After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith married multiple wives and introduced the practice to close associates."  The only revelation I know of on polygamy came in July 1843 (D&C 132), yet Joseph Smith had married 22 (by some count) additional wives by July 1843.

2 Big Questions:

1. What revelation did Joseph Smith receive (per the mentioned Gospel Topic Essay) before the D&C 132 revelation that told him to practice polygamy, despite the Book of Mormon's 1830 prohibition (with exception)?

2. In light of the Jacob 2:30 provision for the allowance of polygamy to "raise up seed unto me..." why are there no (known) children that emerged from Joseph Smith's plural wives?  Joseph apparently did not use polygamy to 'raise up seed.'

I am sure that with the book of mormon at the time of jacob people were told not to practice polygamy. However, we do have polygamy in the old testament. So why the discrepancy? Both were written during the old testament times. And yet, they are opposites. I would also think that if Joseph wrote the book of mormon he would know what he wrote in that chapter. My guess is simple: he was instructed to practice it to bring a restoration of whole things. I don't see him as being enthused about the practice at all. And he did stop doing it, most likely to keep family peace. But....he then started it again when he was threatened by an angel with a sword, which is also in the old testament.

If joseph did it for the sex, it was a mistake. He could have had sex with many women in neighboring counties and then come back to emma with a happy face. No reason to murky the waters with a phoney polygamy instruction and also get others involved. Also, not one of his wives ever was recorded speaking evil of him after he died. And women know when a guy is being just plain lustful. And some of his wives did not go west with the saints. So, why did these women not say anything bad about him? And yet, some take it upon it themselves now to disparage him.

Edited January 28, 2019 by why me

[MustardSeed]

This is what I just read :  You don’t support polygamy? Then you don’t support Smith. Don’t support Smith? Then you don’t belong here with us. 

I’m pretty disappointed in this approach to this discussion. This topic creates major cognitive dissonance for many people.  Is that such a stretch? Many people value monogamy and can’t fathom any other option as Godly regardless of ancient history.  

All polygamy disgusts me.  Not all polygamists were or are evil but I do believe I would not enjoy the company of smith or young today. If I don’t belong, that’s unfortunate but I get a lot out of the gospel and I give a lot as well.  I’m not black and white.  Life is messy. The church is messy.  I’m messy and so are you.  But if only those who revere smith and every action he took belong....according to you.....then I guess we disagree. 

[JLHPROF]

29 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

This is what I just read :  You don’t support polygamy? Then you don’t support Smith. Don’t support Smith? Then you don’t belong here with us. 

But if only those who revere smith and every action he took belong....according to you.....then I guess we disagree. 

"Belong" where?  In the Church that Joseph established?

Nobody is saying you have to love polygamy to be a Mormon.  But those stating Joseph was an adulterer, a pedophile, etc?

Talk about cognitive dissonance.  How can anyone believe God's chosen prophet through whom the entire remaining elements of the gospel were revealed was guilty of such major sins throughout the whole process?

Those who would disavow Joseph as such an evil sinner don't belong.  Sorry.

Edited January 28, 2019 by JLHPROF

[SouthernMo]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Those who would disavow Joseph as such an evil sinner don't belong.  Sorry.

With such an attitude, can you be surprised that people are leaving the church?

Christ taught that one should go after the lost sheep.

Your attitude seems to convey that any sheep whose ideas have caused them to wander from the fold of ‘truth’ should just stay away because they don’t belong.  The unity of faith in the LDS church is more important than inviting those who don’t share that unity to stay and help them grow that unity?

[MustardSeed]

Ok.   There’s an attitude that layers the words that I just cannot get behind.  Sorry. 

[CA Steve]

10 hours ago, why me said:

If joseph did it for the sex, it was a mistake. He could have had sex with many women in neighboring counties and then come back to emma with a happy face. No reason to murky the waters with a phoney polygamy instruction and also get others involved.

It's was a well known fact that the neighboring counties around Joseph had lots of women who were willing to have sex with married men, even famous married men, and not say a word about it. This is a totally believable option.

🙄

 

[JLHPROF]

7 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

With such an attitude, can you be surprised that people are leaving the church?

Christ taught that one should go after the lost sheep.

Your attitude seems to convey that any sheep whose ideas have caused them to wander from the fold of ‘truth’ should just stay away because they don’t belong.  The unity of faith in the LDS church is more important than inviting those who don’t share that unity to stay and help them grow that unity?

Going after the lost sheep is a true gospel principle - encouraging those who wander/wonder to return.  Inviting them to believe again.

When that sheep continues to choose to leave nothing will make them stay so cries of "people are leaving" don't carry much weight nor should they.

The false doctrine is that the Church needs to embrace those who don't share their beliefs into their membership, or worse to change the Church to keep everyone happy and comfortable.

But specific to Mustardseed's post I would argue that a fundamental belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God is a prerequisite for Church members.  You can't really be a Christian and reject Christ either.

If Joseph was an evil sinner what on earth would you be doing following him.

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Ok.   There’s an attitude that layers the words that I just cannot get behind.  Sorry. 

You don't have to agree with me.  But I'd like some explanation of a position that I may not be aware of.

Edited January 29, 2019 by JLHPROF

[SouthernMo]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

The false doctrine is that the Church needs to embrace those who don't share their beliefs into their membership,

What is the doctrine that all members need to be embrace?

[JLHPROF]

18 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

What is the doctrine that all members need to be embrace?

Very cleverly worded.

You attempt to create division.  The members of the Church embrace people in all walks of life at all stages of personal journey.  And it's right that they do so.

However membership in ANY religion should require a belief in core teachings and tenets of that religion.  And a religion should never be expected to change, disavow, or remove a core tenet just so those who don't believe want to become or remain a member. 

Such behavior by any Church would be a sign of moral cowardice and a lack of testimony.  I wouldn't want to follow a Church who were willing to sacrifice their beliefs to keep me a member.

[SouthernMo]

56 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Very cleverly worded.

You attempt to create division.  The members of the Church embrace people in all walks of life at all stages of personal journey.  And it's right that they do so.

However membership in ANY religion should require a belief in core teachings and tenets of that religion.  And a religion should never be expected to change, disavow, or remove a core tenet just so those who don't believe want to become or remain a member. 

Such behavior by any Church would be a sign of moral cowardice and a lack of testimony.  I wouldn't want to follow a Church who were willing to sacrifice their beliefs to keep me a member.

You made the claim.  I’m asking you to back it up by being specific. If you can’t, it’s hard for me to take your belief as well thought out.

Please list those ‘core teachings and tenets’ of Mormonism that if one does not believe should be excluded (as you claim).

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

You made the claim.  I’m asking you to back it up by being specific. If you can’t, it’s hard for me to take your belief as well thought out.

Please list those ‘core teachings and tenets’ of Mormonism that if one does not believe should be excluded (as you claim).

There are many I could list.  I could also just copy and paste the baptismal interview questions.

For the purpose of this thread tangent one of the questions asks "Do you believe that the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith?"

If the answer is no then why would you want baptism or membership.

Since when is requiring a testimony in order to be baptized so strange?

[SouthernMo]

35 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There are many I could list.  I could also just copy and paste the baptismal interview questions.

For the purpose of this thread tangent one of the questions asks "Do you believe that the Church and gospel of Jesus Christ have been restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith?"

If the answer is no then why would you want baptism or membership.

Since when is requiring a testimony in order to be baptized so strange?

So one only has to believe the baptismal questions as is?  Those who don’t should believe be excluded from the church?

Just trying to get a complete picture of your belief.

[why me]

On 1/28/2019 at 10:40 PM, CA Steve said:

It's was a well known fact that the neighboring counties around Joseph had lots of women who were willing to have sex with married men, even famous married men, and not say a word about it. This is a totally believable option.

🙄

 

Joseph was on the road quite often. And there were women who would take money for sex. I just can't see Joseph being itchy and enacting polygamy to have sex. And then have others follow his lead. In other words, there were easier ways to have sex outside of marriage.

Edited January 29, 2019 by why me

[CA Steve]

5 minutes ago, why me said:

Joseph was on the road quite often. And there were women who would take money for sex. I just can't see Joseph being itchy and enacting polygamy to have sex. And then have others follow his lead. In other words, there were easier ways to have sex outside of marriage.

This is really a silly defense and in no way necessary to defend Joseph. The thought that a well known leader of a religious sect could just wander off to a nearby town or county by himself, pay for sex on a regular basis, not be recognized and no one find out about it is beyond belief. But let's say for a moment that somehow this was possible and available for Joseph, for all you know he may have been availing himself anyways.

[Gray]

On 1/28/2019 at 7:51 AM, JLHPROF said:

"Belong" where?  In the Church that Joseph established?

Does that church exist anymore? If it did, which one would it be and how could you tell?

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Does that church exist anymore? If it did, which one would it be and how could you tell?

Good question.  Joseph would be excommunicated so quickly today.  I  don't believe he'd follow the changes that have created today's Church.  Not without one heck of a confirming vision.

[SouthernMo]

20 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

So one only has to believe the baptismal questions as is?  Those who don’t should believe be excluded from the church?

Just trying to get a complete picture of your belief.

@JLHPROF - eagerly awaiting your response!

[Tacenda]

On 1/28/2019 at 3:27 AM, why me said:

I am sure that with the book of mormon at the time of jacob people were told not to practice polygamy. However, we do have polygamy in the old testament. So why the discrepancy? Both were written during the old testament times. And yet, they are opposites. I would also think that if Joseph wrote the book of mormon he would know what he wrote in that chapter. My guess is simple: he was instructed to practice it to bring a restoration of whole things. I don't see him as being enthused about the practice at all. And he did stop doing it, most likely to keep family peace. But....he then started it again when he was threatened by an angel with a sword, which is also in the old testament.

If joseph did it for the sex, it was a mistake. He could have had sex with many women in neighboring counties and then come back to emma with a happy face. No reason to murky the waters with a phoney polygamy instruction and also get others involved. Also, not one of his wives ever was recorded speaking evil of him after he died. And women know when a guy is being just plain lustful. And some of his wives did not go west with the saints. So, why did these women not say anything bad about him? And yet, some take it upon it themselves now to disparage him.

“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195

[katherine the great]

On 1/26/2019 at 9:18 PM, JLHPROF said:

I don't know too many women that can have a son then 30 years later have 6 more children.

Lol! You're trying to be logical about this? I don't know too many women who can have a baby at age 90 or men who live to be 175! 😂

[katherine the great]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195

Ugh. Don't even get me started on Orson Pratt's polygamy. The most irresponsible polygamist ever!

[why me]

On 1/30/2019 at 7:00 AM, Tacenda said:

“This law of monogamy, or the monogamic system, laid the foundation for prostitution and the evils and diseases of the most revolting nature and character under which modern Christendom groans…”

- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 195

There is some truth in this. Islam does allow polygamy for this very reason. Of course there are other reasons why Islam allows up to 4 wives. However, when a man marries over 30 women, sex will probably not be the issue for marrying so many women.