Sealings toToxic people

[Duncan]

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

[The Nehor]

Anyone you would not want to be sealed to forever will not have a valid sealing post-Judgement Day.

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

In eternal Celestial glory, you will no longer be the mortal you currently are, with the long list of faults you currently have.  You're going to be a completely re-born person with a goodly character like unto Christ Himself.

Same with every other person in God's family.  So, your aunt will no longer be this desperately needing therapy person, rather a Celestial person like unto Christ Himself.  Which fo me, is a huge assurance, because I have family members that aren't remotely like Christ today.  

[Duncan]

17 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

In eternal Celestial glory, you will no longer be the mortal you currently are, with the long list of faults you currently have.  You're going to be a completely re-born person with a goodly character like unto Christ Himself.

Same with every other person in God's family.  So, your aunt will no longer be this desperately needing therapy person, rather a Celestial person like unto Christ Himself.  Which fo me, is a huge assurance, because I have family members that aren't remotely like Christ today.  

people won't change unless they want to, she and others won't be forced to change against their will

[poptart]

58 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

In eternal Celestial glory, you will no longer be the mortal you currently are, with the long list of faults you currently have.  You're going to be a completely re-born person with a goodly character like unto Christ Himself.

Same with every other person in God's family.  So, your aunt will no longer be this desperately needing therapy person, rather a Celestial person like unto Christ Himself.  Which fo me, is a huge assurance, because I have family members that aren't remotely like Christ today.  

So under Mormon theology we could all just murder each other then be Christ like afterwards? 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

So under Mormon theology we could all just murder each other then be Christ like afterwards? 

No, our attitudes and desires likely won't disappear instantly, might even be like changing in mortality....we all go through extensive therapy and teaching.  Big difference is our time to learn is most likely unlimited (as long as we need) and our 'therapist' perfect in u derstanding of our issues and how to convey that to us.

So while change may occur, if in our hearts we still desire whatever led us to murder, we won't be becoming like Christ.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Calm

[Garden Girl]

3 hours ago, poptart said:

So under Mormon theology we could all just murder each other then be Christ like afterwards? 

Calm is nicer in responding than I am...  This is a ridiculous statement... not only utterly ridiculous but untrue... and you know it...  so why make it except to slam the Church...

GG

[CV75]

11 hours ago, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

We will be healed in the resurrection, so I think we will be able to tolerate others better, and they us. I think this is part of the meaning of D&C 130:2 ("And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory, which glory we do not now enjoy."). This is also why cultivating charity is so important in dealing with difficult people.

I also see the sealing meaning several things on several levels. We are sealed up unto exaltation through marriage and parentage (whether adopted or born into the covenant) since we are exalted as families. So it really doesn't matter who we are sealed "to" -- and perhaps a better preposition in this explanation might be "through." As we develop charity we will love whoever we are sealed to or through. Of course we allow that the Lord can make adjustments as necessary.

I've sometimes wondered if we can be sealed to people who might end up in lesser kingdoms. I don't see why not, they simply choose to "enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received." (D&C 88: 32). One enjoys his or her sealing unto exaltation, and the other does not. Of course there will need to be other sealed marriage pairings to receive and enjoy that exaltation.

[changed]

12 hours ago, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

 

Have you read the great divorse by csLewis?  He describes a heaven which contains murderers and adulterers who have repented, and a hell filled with "righteous" believers who are unable to forgive.  I think I agree with Lewis, Heaven is for those who seek to be together forever with everyone.  Hell is for those who are judgemental about their company. 

[ksfisher]

12 hours ago, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

Lyrics

1. Know this, that ev’ry soul is free
   To choose his life and what he’ll be;
   For this eternal truth is giv’n:
   That God will force no man to heav’n. He’ll call, persuade, direct aright,
2. And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
   In nameless ways be good and kind,
   But never force the human mind.
3. Freedom and reason make us men;
   Take these away, what are we then?
   Mere animals, and just as well
   The beasts may think of heav’n or hell.
4. May we no more our pow’rs abuse,
   But ways of truth and goodness choose;
   Our God is pleased when we improve
   His grace and seek his perfect love.
5.  
6.  
7. Text: Anon., ca. 1805, Boston. Included in the first LDS hymnbook, 1835.
8. Music: Roger L. Miller, b. 1937. © 1985 IRI

https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/know-this-that-every-soul-is-free?lang=eng&_r=1

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, Duncan said:

people won't change unless they want to, she and others won't be forced to change against their will

In 20/20 hindsight, I should have clarified that my previous answer was written with the assumption that a person fully accepts Christ and His gifts.  Yes, that involves mega changes to who the person is.

If a person doesn't want to accept Christ, His gifts, and His re-birth, then they are choosing to reject His Celestial glory in favor of a lesser glory.  Honestly, we don't know much about Celestial eternal family members, let alone lower glory family members.  

[rpn]

God judges differently than mortals do.    That is just a fact. 

[CA Steve]

13 hours ago, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

It is really an interesting question which, I think, goes much deeper than we know.

I am a great guy, and everybody I know likes me except for those who don't and that is clearly their fault. I know in the next life, those people who don't like me will see the light and change and we will all get along just fine after they go through a transition period of a few million years or so.

Obviously there are some problems with that statement. 

Issues I have with other people are probably as much my fault as theirs. And yet there is this expectation that in the next life our differences, which cause these conflicts, will go away. I wonder sometime is HF & HM ever disagree, about anything? If not, what is it that makes such a relationship desirable? I have been married for many decades and what has made that relationship with my wife work is as much about how we differ as it is about how we agree. My wife's mother sounds remarkably similar to your aunt and yet within a few weeks of her death, her daughters had themselves sealed to her for eternity. I asked my wife why, since her mom was not a person we could even spend a weekend with, did she really want to be with her forever. (Side note: I honestly think we have no idea what "forever means" and throw that word around way too much.) My wife replied that she was certain her mom's bad characteristics would be corrected in the next life. I replied that she would be a completely different person than she is now and my wife could not know if that person is someone to whom she wanted to be sealed?

 

I look at it this way. I don't want to be perfect, not even close. The person that is me now looks forward to getting up on that darn dogleg left 8th tee and slicing the bar into the rough 9 times out of 10, because that awesome shot on the 10th time makes the other 9 times worth while. So when others say that when we are eternal we will enjoy different things that it make it worth while, that we will all get along, I don't know who that person is. It certainly isn't me and why would I want to work toward being someone so completely different from who I am now?

 

I don't know your aunt, but for all we know she may be looking forward to an future existence where you and your dad and mom are the ones who get changed.

[poptart]

8 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

Calm is nicer in responding than I am...  This is a ridiculous statement... not only utterly ridiculous but untrue... and you know it...  so why make it except to slam the Church...

GG

No, actually that was an honest question, a blunt one but an honest one.  Here, let me remove the mormon label and replace it with Christian and expound on what I was really getting at.  I know one of the pillars of the religion is forgiveness but where does it end?  Where's the accountability?  Case in point the sealing, the idea of someone being Christlike right after living a rotten life sounds really wrong to me.  If someone's lived a rotten life, assuming there is an afterlife/reincarnation afterwards they would most likely continue being so.  Change takes work and motivation, the idea of someone magically being changed to me strikes me as something you'd see in the pagan belief systems, even Buddhism for that matter.  Case in point, in the Lotus Sutra, one of the highest (in some schools the highest) teaching there is one of the Dragon kings daughters uses the highest teachings of Buddha to gain enlightenment in a second to prove a few points, in addition to being denied enlightenment for being female and one of the dragon kings daughters through proper buddhist teachings all are capable of enlightenment. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longnü

A lot of buddhist sutras are full of fantastic illustrations because at first they catered to a Brahman culture which is full of fantastic stories like that.  Once Buddhism reached China and Japan, they distilled it to make sense to a more pragmatic people. 

Guess I was a bit too blunt, my bad.  It was a serious question because for the most part i've seen Christians here stateside say one thing yet in practice do quite the opposite so really I have to wonder about their doctorine, what's the engine that drives it?

9 hours ago, Calm said:

No, our attitudes and desires likely won't disappear instantly, might even be like changing in mortality....we all go through extensive therapy and teaching.  Big difference is our time to learn is most likely unlimited (as long as we need) and our 'therapist' perfect in u derstanding of our issues and how to convey that to us.

So while change may occur, if in our hearts we still desire whatever led us to murder, we won't be becoming like Christ.

Should have read your reply first, that makes sense.  I was talking to a Mormon friend (TBH the only one who really did care out of the whole ward) about just this.  He does notice quite a bit more entitlement among his friends and even his family, this "Elect" mentality that we can do no wrong and are better than everyone else, yet are terrified at the recent backlash against churches, notably the violent ones.   I look at my Uncle who just passed, man totally lived his religion and did nothing but contribute, yet his entitled grandkids are doing a wonderful job of ruining the family.  I've seen so much of that from people here in the mainland and have to wonder if they'll ever figure out you have to work on you, be like the people who came before you to make your religion work.  As a Buddhist and a Pagan we're very much about that.  Case in point I was a bit blunt, my bad.  Anyway, hope I did a better job of explaining myself this time.

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by poptart

[pogi]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

"And that same sociality which exists among us here will exist among us there, only it will be coupled with eternal glory..."

So, we will live in glorified dysfunction? ...can't wait. 

[The Nehor]

59 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

It is really an interesting question which, I think, goes much deeper than we know.

I am a great guy, and everybody I know likes me except for those who don't and that is clearly their fault. I know in the next life, those people who don't like me will see the light and change and we will all get along just fine after they go through a transition period of a few million years or so.

Obviously there are some problems with that statement. 

Issues I have with other people are probably as much my fault as theirs. And yet there is this expectation that in the next life our differences, which cause these conflicts, will go away. I wonder sometime is HF & HM ever disagree, about anything? If not, what is it that makes such a relationship desirable? I have been married for many decades and what has made that relationship with my wife work is as much about how we differ as it is about how we agree. My wife's mother sounds remarkably similar to your aunt and yet within a few weeks of her death, her daughters had themselves sealed to her for eternity. I asked my wife why, since her mom was not a person we could even spend a weekend with, did she really want to be with her forever. (Side note: I honestly think we have no idea what "forever means" and throw that word around way too much.) My wife replied that she was certain her mom's bad characteristics would be corrected in the next life. I replied that she would be a completely different person than she is now and my wife could not know if that person is someone to whom she wanted to be sealed?

 

I look at it this way. I don't want to be perfect, not even close. The person that is me now looks forward to getting up on that darn dogleg left 8th tee and slicing the bar into the rough 9 times out of 10, because that awesome shot on the 10th time makes the other 9 times worth while. So when others say that when we are eternal we will enjoy different things that it make it worth while, that we will all get along, I don't know who that person is. It certainly isn't me and why would I want to work toward being someone so completely different from who I am now?

 

I don't know your aunt, but for all we know she may be looking forward to an future existence where you and your dad and mom are the ones who get changed.

Someone who is convinced that everyone who dislikes them has the problem are doing it wrong. People dislike me and I know at least partially why and a lot of it is my fault. Part of it is actually moral flaws, part of it is just being a clueless idiot mortal, and part of it is their problem. The first I hope the Savior will fix with my permission. The latter two I expect everyone getting out of these flawed bodies will solve.

I would urge you not to define your uniqueness by your flaws. The things that make celestial beings unique are very real but they are not so pedestrian and well, flawed. The things that make you unique now are only pale shadows and hints of what truly makes you unique in eternity.

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Someone who is convinced that everyone who dislikes them has the problem are doing it wrong. People dislike me and I know at least partially why and a lot of it is my fault. Part of it is actually moral flaws, part of it is just being a clueless idiot mortal, and part of it is their problem. The first I hope the Savior will fix with my permission. The latter two I expect everyone getting out of these flawed bodies will solve.

I would urge you not to define your uniqueness by your flaws. The things that make celestial beings unique are very real but they are not so pedestrian and well, flawed. The things that make you unique now are only pale shadows and hints of what truly makes you unique in eternity.

I have a lot of problems, a few of em kept me out of the military.  Funny, someone can identify as transgender and get right in, but if you've been in therapy for longer than 6 months and took antidepressants?  Nope, no military for you.  That being said, yeah I can be a real pain to deal with once you get to know me, thing is i'm honest about it.  Little food for thought, more often than not, it's not always you.  People as a rule have problems, look at mental health in the USA, how many Americans are on anti-depressants of some kind.  Also our drug and alcoholism problem, esp. opioids, I've always been a firm believer that one of the main causes of a lot of that stuff is family disfunction. 

I always liked the idea of polishing one's inner mirror, to me it always made sense.  I never understood the idea of just praying to some diety and through following exact rites and what not, my soul is clean.  Even the idea of sin was always strange, always preferred ignorance.  Look at something like body fat, you can ignore it all you like but it's always there for the whole world to see, only way it's going away is with diet and exercise.  Oh and surgery. 

As far as I can tell, you're one of the more moral individuals here, no snarky judgement, no using religion/dogma as a shield or quoting from your holy text as a means of deflection, you just come right out and say what's on your mind, nothing wrong with that.

[poptart]

16 minutes ago, pogi said:

So, we will live in glorified dysfunction? ...can't wait. 

See, that's why I came out and asked if we just murdered each other if we'd be perfect in the afterlife.  Doesn't make sense to me that one can live a "sinful" life and have it all magically go away.  Look at the Heavenly realms of the gods, both east and west and you'll see all kinds of disfunction.   Character development takes work.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, poptart said:

I have a lot of problems, a few of em kept me out of the military.  Funny, someone can identify as transgender and get right in, but if you've been in therapy for longer than 6 months and took antidepressants?  Nope, no military for you.  That being said, yeah I can be a real pain to deal with once you get to know me, thing is i'm honest about it.  Little food for thought, more often than not, it's not always you.  People as a rule have problems, look at mental health in the USA, how many Americans are on anti-depressants of some kind.  Also our drug and alcoholism problem, esp. opioids, I've always been a firm believer that one of the main causes of a lot of that stuff is family disfunction. 

I always liked the idea of polishing one's inner mirror, to me it always made sense.  I never understood the idea of just praying to some diety and through following exact rites and what not, my soul is clean.  Even the idea of sin was always strange, always preferred ignorance.  Look at something like body fat, you can ignore it all you like but it's always there for the whole world to see, only way it's going away is with diet and exercise.  Oh and surgery. 

As far as I can tell, you're one of the more moral individuals here, no snarky judgement, no using religion/dogma as a shield or quoting from your holy text as a means of deflection, you just come right out and say what's on your mind, nothing wrong with that.

The weakness comes when you just accept your flaws instead of figuring out ways to overcome them or compensate for them. Elder Holland once said that “this is just the way I am” is the phrase most likely his blood boil because it denies all possibility of progress.

Oh, and “no snarky judgement”? While I appreciate the compliment I doubt I earned that one.  

 

[SeekerB]

15 hours ago, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

If you make the Celestial Kingdom and your aunt does not, problem solved. Forever.

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, poptart said:

See, that's why I came out and asked if we just murdered each other if we'd be perfect in the afterlife.  Doesn't make sense to me that one can live a "sinful" life and have it all magically go away.  Look at the Heavenly realms of the gods, both east and west and you'll see all kinds of disfunction.   Character development takes work.

The important thing is to distinguish between regular mortal weaknesses and injuries and real moral defects. The former die with the body. The latter can damn or exalt you. President Hinckley once said that the path to exaltation is to try. If you desire to be better that is enough. Note that it cannot be a kind of daydreaming desire that prompts no action. It has to be the kind with some grit and determination and desire and hope.

[CA Steve]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Someone who is convinced that everyone who dislikes them has the problem are doing it wrong. People dislike me and I know at least partially why and a lot of it is my fault. Part of it is actually moral flaws, part of it is just being a clueless idiot mortal, and part of it is their problem. The first I hope the Savior will fix with my permission. The latter two I expect everyone getting out of these flawed bodies will solve.

I would urge you not to define your uniqueness by your flaws. The things that make celestial beings unique are very real but they are not so pedestrian and well, flawed. The things that make you unique now are only pale shadows and hints of what truly makes you unique in eternity.

Thanks Nehor, but I want to keep a lot of my flaws, even some of the ones that make my life more difficult.

I like the golf analogy here, so I am going to expand it a bit. My best friend and I play golf together frequently, and have so for years. He is left handed and I am right and we both have the same basic problem when it comes to hitting a driver. We draw the face of the club head across the ball so that it puts unwanted spin on it. In my case it makes the ball go right and in his case, since he is left handed, it goes left. We have an ongoing joke about our game that due to the way we hit the ball, even though we are playing together we rarely see each other until we eventually get on the green. And while we have improved over the years, it still happens often enough to make us laugh at each other off searching in the weeds for a ball and also make us feel good about our game when we both manage to stay on the fairway.

So let's compare that to your posting habits. You have people here who think you are the second coming of Jason from Halloween and others who on a consistent basis up vote your posts. Were you to tone down your posting style in any significant way, you wouldn't be The Nehor anymore. Maybe that's a good thing (Jason, I am sure is tired of the competition). Maybe that's a bad thing as I am sure there are some here who would be disappointed, I mean how boring would heaven be if The Nehor wasn't around to spread his unique brand of cheer?

[Anijen]

12 hours ago, poptart said:

So under Mormon theology we could all just murder each other then be Christ like afterwards? 

Well, under evangelical theology we could murder each other receive grace and are saved. Why is one acceptable and not the other?

Note: I am NOT advocating murder, I am advocating being Christ like.

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Well, under evangelical theology we could murder each other receive grace and are saved. Why is one acceptable and not the other?

Note: I am NOT advocating murder, I am advocating being Christ like.

That's kind of the point, did expand on that a bit to include Christian theology.  Hearing about the toxic sealings part bothered me, I know getting sealed in the temple isn't an easy matter, lots of work goes into it so having to endure someones bad behavior and having it magically go away bothered me.  Yeah, it did sound just like something some evangelicals would justify.  Will never forget when the Iraq war started, how these people would cheer the military bombing campaigns as a crusade against evil, that we're doing the Lords work, even if it ment a lot of innocent people who had nothing to do with the war on terror were killed.

[poptart]

13 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The important thing is to distinguish between regular mortal weaknesses and injuries and real moral defects. The former die with the body. The latter can damn or exalt you. President Hinckley once said that the path to exaltation is to try. If you desire to be better that is enough. Note that it cannot be a kind of daydreaming desire that prompts no action. It has to be the kind with some grit and determination and desire and hope.

I've been a big fan of karma.  Little things can be fixed but big things can not only ruin you, but also family and beyond.  With karma, it's all on you and no one else, you damn yourself to hell.  Trying sounds nice but in the end it's all on you.