Riot/protest that helped escalate the black priesthood controversy

[poptart]

Know a few people who don't even know this happened and still think this would have made no difference, I really have to wonder.  Thoughts?

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/mens-basketball/2015/02/15/byu-csu-basketball-riot/23448897/

Edited October 12, 2018 by poptart

[The Nehor]

It was 8 years before. Unlikely to be major contributing factor.

[jbarm]

Cause and effect with an eight year delay?

Protests didn't occur in mid 1970's so I don't know that this event had any impact at all, IMO.

Not that I supported the ban or support the reasons given right now as to why it was in place.  Mostly due to racism embedded within the Church.

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, poptart said:

Know a few people who don't even know this happened and still think this would have made no difference, I really have to wonder.  Thoughts?

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/mens-basketball/2015/02/15/byu-csu-basketball-riot/23448897/

1970 was the height of protests about everything.

University of California did not even finish the Academic Year the campus was closed due to disruptions.

There was Vietnam there was Kent State there was the Civil Rights Movement everything was focused in 1970.

Everything peaked in June 1970. We were hoping that it would carry us through the summer and the real Revolution would happen, that we would actually finally unify with the workers and the true Revolution would actually happen.

But September 1970 came and everything went back to normal.

It was kind of a rite of passage at that time. You just protested about stuff.

[poptart]

10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

1970 was the height of protests about everything.

University of California did not even finish the Academic Year the campus was closed due to disruptions.

There was Vietnam there was Kent State there was the Civil Rights Movement everything was focused in 1970.

Everything peaked in June 1970. We were hoping that it would carry us through the summer and the real Revolution would happen, that we would actually finally unify with the workers and the true Revolution would actually happen.

But September 1970 came and everything went back to normal.

It was kind of a rite of passage at that time. You just protested about stuff.

Think what sticks out most for me when I talk to cousins who grew up in the 60s and 70s was just how free society was back then.  People protested but for the most part there was still kind of a live and let live, I want those times back.

Fort Collins sure has changed though.

[Robert F. Smith]

59 minutes ago, poptart said:

Know a few people who don't even know this happened and still think this would have made no difference, I really have to wonder.  Thoughts?

https://www.coloradoan.com/story/sports/csu/mens-basketball/2015/02/15/byu-csu-basketball-riot/23448897/

Both non-Mormon Professor Jan Shipps and Mormon Apostle Le Grand Richards pointed to the same crucial pressure-point in the late 1970s as the immediate cause of a seeking for an answer by Pres Kimball:  The building of a temple in Brazil, and the problem of distinguishing people with Black African ancestry there from those without it.  Given the historical race-mixing in Brazil, that seemed impossible,  and  hence who to allow into the priesthood and into the temple became a major, insoluble issue.

As in all other cases of LDS revelation, one only receives the will of God when one asks for it.

[Glenn101]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As in all other cases of LDS revelation, one only receives the will of God when one asks for it.

Not sure that Jonah would agree with you on that. 😕

Glenn

 

[JAHS]

I remember hearing an interview with Joseph Freeman who was the first black member to receive the priesthood and he claimed that there really wasn't any recent pressure that would have caused the change to happen although there might have been in the earlier 70s.
 

[pogi]

14 hours ago, poptart said:

People protested but for the most part there was still kind of a live and let live, I want those times back.

Maybe that live and let live vibe was seen in a minority counter culture like San Francisco, but in general I think we are in more tolerant days today.  People were protesting like crazy precisely because the overall scene was NOT live and let live.

Unless you were a white, male, Christian, that was not the best time to live in.

...oh, and did I mention straight? No bueno for you my friend!

Edited October 12, 2018 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

47 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Not sure that Jonah would agree with you on that. 😕

Glenn

True, although it isn't clear whether the book of Jona is a parable rather than a historical account of an actual prophet.  He was a disobedient and angry prophet in any case, resentful that God had not destroyed Nineveh.

[RevTestament]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As in all other cases of LDS revelation, one only receives the will of God when one asks for it.

 

4 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Not sure that Jonah would agree with you on that. 😕

Glenn

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

True, although it isn't clear whether the book of Jona is a parable rather than a historical account of an actual prophet.  He was a disobedient and angry prophet in any case, resentful that God had not destroyed Nineveh.

There are times when God may speak without being asked - is that what you are referring to? Certainly Jonah didn't ask for instruction to go the Nineveh. God spoke up and told him to go. Which he disobeyed. When he finally got spat out on the beach and went, he did what God told him to. So, after all his trouble to finally do what God told him, he expected God to destroy the Ninevites like God said He would if they didn't repent. They apparently repented enough. I always found this story a bit strange. When do you send a prophet to your enemy? However, the Assyrians were Semites like the Hebrews, but their leaders were quite brutal, and had turned to pagan gods. God has always introduced Himself, and gave warning before destroying people - which is also a point of the story of Noah. 

God also made Himself known to Moses through the angel in the burning bush without being asked anything apparently. I believe He did much of the same with Adam. The announcements of John the Baptist and Yeshua were of course unsolicited. There are really many examples. The Lord first revealed Himself to me in an unsolicited fashion - I was simply reading scripture. But, yes, I agree that normally, it is us who seeks direction before receiving any.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

True, although it isn't clear whether the book of Jona is a parable rather than a historical account of an actual prophet.  He was a disobedient and angry prophet in any case, resentful that God had not destroyed Nineveh.

To be fair who does not like a good old-fashioned city destroying event?

[Robert F. Smith]

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

There are times when God may speak without being asked - is that what you are referring to? Certainly Jonah didn't ask for instruction to go the Nineveh. God spoke up and told him to go. Which he disobeyed. When he finally got spat out on the beach and went, he did what God told him to. So, after all his trouble to finally do what God told him, he expected God to destroy the Ninevites like God said He would if they didn't repent. They apparently repented enough. I always found this story a bit strange. When do you send a prophet to your enemy? However, the Assyrians were Semites like the Hebrews, but their leaders were quite brutal, and had turned to pagan gods.

Pagan gods were the norm in the ancient Near East, and so were prophets --- which could be found in every nation.

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

 God has always introduced Himself, and gave warning before destroying people - which is also a point of the story of Noah. 

Yes.  Apostasy is normal, and one dispensation after another has been ended unhappily for those not obeying God.

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

God also made Himself known to Moses through the angel in the burning bush without being asked anything apparently.

But Moses went into the mountain because he was seeking God.  He found what he was looking for.

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I believe He did much of the same with Adam. The announcements of John the Baptist and Yeshua were of course unsolicited.

John was the son of the high priest Zechariah, thus making John a high priest by birth.  Responsibility goes with the territory, and John was a God intoxicated man.  So, yes, God does reach out and grab available talent when He needs something done.  The Plan does have a schedule.

28 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

There are really many examples. The Lord first revealed Himself to me in an unsolicited fashion - I was simply reading scripture. But, yes, I agree that normally, it is us who seeks direction before receiving any.

You were reading Scripture.  I went to the L.A. Temple Visitor's Center one day and rec'd a witness of the Spirit.  We might not have been seeking anything in particular, but each of us took that crucial step in His direction.  I was very surprised.

[cdowis]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

 

There are times when God may speak without being asked

There were several who received dreams and did not know their meaning until later == an example is my nonmember brother who saw the Atlanta Temple with shafts of light coming from and going to the heavens.  He only recognized it when I took him to the open house -- as we were crossing the street, he suddenly stopped dead in his tracks in amazement.

Edited October 13, 2018 by cdowis

[RevTestament]

18 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

But Moses went into the mountain because he was seeking God.  He found what he was looking for.

You were reading Scripture.  I went to the L.A. Temple Visitor's Center one day and rec'd a witness of the Spirit.  We might not have been seeking anything in particular, but each of us took that crucial step in His direction.  I was very surprised.

Thank you for sharing that Robert. i have always loved conversion stories, and hearing the workings of God in our lives. 

Not to be argumentative, but wasn't Moses just keeping the sheep? Is there some scripture or story I don't know about here?

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

To be fair who does not like a good old-fashioned city destroying event?

Depends on one's location in respect to the city. I doubt that the denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were not especially thrilled.

 

[carbon dioxide]

The priesthood is not a right given by government.  It is power and authority given by God.  Its existence in the LDS Church is dependent on the claim that John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John appeared to Joseph Smith and ordained him to the priesthood.  For anyone to claim that it was wrong for the Church to not allow blacks to be ordained means these people are a admitting that these individuals did in fact appear to Joseph Smith and that the authority was given to him and has been passed along every since.   It simply is absurd for a person on one hand to declare the LDS claims to the priesthood to be false but on the other hand believe that it was wrong for the Church to not give to certain people a power and authority that did not really exist.   It would be like if some of my friends and I decided we had the authority to write parking tickets but we denied this "authority" to some of our Mexican friends.  People then declare we are racists for denying these people the ability to pass out our fake parking tickets?  Does that really make sense?

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Depends on one's location in respect to the city. I doubt that the denizens of Sodom and Gomorrah were not especially thrilled.

 

There is that I suppose but is death really so bad?

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

..............................................

Not to be argumentative, but wasn't Moses just keeping the sheep? Is there some scripture or story I don't know about here?

You are correct.  Moses seems to have been simply herding the sheep.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/11/2018 at 10:19 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Both non-Mormon Professor Jan Shipps and Mormon Apostle Le Grand Richards pointed to the same crucial pressure-point in the late 1970s as the immediate cause of a seeking for an answer by Pres Kimball:  The building of a temple in Brazil, and the problem of distinguishing people with Black African ancestry there from those without it.  Given the historical race-mixing in Brazil, that seemed impossible,  and  hence who to allow into the priesthood and into the temple became a major, insoluble issue.

As in all other cases of LDS revelation, one only receives the will of God when one asks for it.

I’m not convinced the prophets hadn’t bothered to ask for it before this “pressure-point” was reached. My intuition tells me that revelation most often results when the desire of the receiver(s) to receive it reaches a point of convergence with the readiness of the Giver to grant it. 

[strappinglad]

In Matthew12 Jesus discusses Jonah and it doesn't SOUND like He treated the story like a parable.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:49 PM, poptart said:

Think what sticks out most for me when I talk to cousins who grew up in the 60s and 70s was just how free society was back then.  People protested but for the most part there was still kind of a live and let live, I want those times back.

Fort Collins sure has changed though.

I remember it being s time of great division and polarization. It was what I hated most about the time period of my youth. 

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not convinced the prophets hadn’t bothered to ask for it before this “pressure-point” was reached. My intuition tells me that revelation most often results when the desire of the receiver(s) to receive it reaches a point of convergence with the readiness of the Giver to grant it. 

True, and we know that Pres McKay actively sought an answer.  The other question which may have been important was whether the members were ready for the change.  There are times when the heavens are closed (1 Kings 8:35-53, 1 Cor 13:8).

[juliann]

On 10/11/2018 at 9:49 PM, poptart said:

Think what sticks out most for me when I talk to cousins who grew up in the 60s and 70s was just how free society was back then.  People protested but for the most part there was still kind of a live and let live, I want those times back.

Fort Collins sure has changed though.

Society was anything but “free.”  It was a time of rife racism and misogyny. The things we thought were so open minded and progressive make me wince now. Go back and watch some of the shows. It brought the so called sexual revolution but that was no gift to women. 

It was an exciting time, however. I lived in San Francisco as Haight Ashbury was on the decline. It was great fun and  influenced  clothing, music, language, etc. However, the hippie movement was not admired by most and influential members went right back into society to become rich. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

True, and we know that Pres McKay actively sought an answer.  The other question which may have been important was whether the members were ready for the change.  There are times when the heavens are closed (1 Kings 8:35-53, 1 Cor 13:8).

That’s a possibility. Or whether society at large was ready to tolerate the Latter-day Saints making the change. 

But now we’re in the realm of speculation, and I have vowed not to go there on this topic. Some of those who went before us erred in this respect, and we need to learn from their errors.