Jeanne Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I so agree! I work in the school district and met a beautiful little girl from Peru. Her parents wanted to see if she could stay in the regular general ed class, she's a 1st grader. I was called in to be with her throughout her day for several weeks to observe if that could be possible. My first day on the job, I thought I was not cut out for the job, very intimitated with children with Down's Syndrome because of my sub'g in special education classes. I didn't do too well, very nervous. But in those several weeks, I've got to say I grew to love her with all of my heart. She was fiesty and would escape or bolt to go exploring, but being as she spoke Spanish, I can't imagine any other 1st grader that was thrown in a class that didn't speak their native tongue to handle that like she did. She is a champion in my eyes. She knew a few English words, which helped. And she studied so intensely what others did that she copied them and did even better sometimes. She is so bright, and we connected the most when she got silly and did her celebration dances when accomplishing something. Last Friday was my last day with her because I'm having to go to another school to help another student. Luciana changed me for life. And how lucky for anyone that gets to have a child like her in their lives. Positively a wonderful experience....she will forget you
Navidad Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: What if tomorrow i am given a million dollars? Hypotheticals are fine for intellectual exercises but they often have no basis in reality. There is nothing President Oaks taught that was incorrect. Whether something is "biological" is irrelevant. The natural man is an enemy to God. Jesus Christ changes human nature Isn't his boss a scientist with specific expertise in biology and the natural man? What has President Nelson said about all of this?
Navidad Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 6 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I so agree! I work in the school district and met a beautiful little girl from Peru. Her parents wanted to see if she could stay in the regular general ed class, she's a 1st grader. I was called in to be with her throughout her day for several weeks to observe if that could be possible. My first day on the job, I thought I was not cut out for the job, very intimitated with children with Down's Syndrome because of my sub'g in special education classes. I didn't do too well, very nervous. But in those several weeks, I've got to say I grew to love her with all of my heart. She was fiesty and would escape or bolt to go exploring, but being as she spoke Spanish, I can't imagine any other 1st grader that was thrown in a class that didn't speak their native tongue to handle that like she did. She is a champion in my eyes. She knew a few English words, which helped. And she studied so intensely what others did that she copied them and did even better sometimes. She is so bright, and we connected the most when she got silly and did her celebration dances when accomplishing something. Last Friday was my last day with her because I'm having to go to another school to help another student. Luciana changed me for life. And how lucky for anyone that gets to have a child like her in their lives. Thanks for the post. My first job in public education was as a school bus driver, my second was as an intern school psychologist working with special children. That was 45 years ago. I will never forget them. However, I really would like an answer to my question - does the Latter-day Saint Church teach that Down Syndrome is a defect from which people will be freed in the celestial kingdom? I have never thought about that before. I kind of hope that isn't true. I guess I have always thought that there would be a special place for such folks, complete with their physical difference.
Tacenda Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 7 minutes ago, Navidad said: Actually I think you bring up a good point. She is seen as having a "defect, " being less than," and being disabled. Yet, she is quite exceptional in a lot of ways. She makes almost everyone smile (I'd bet even you too) when she enters a room. So what is the source, the root of exceptionality? Perhaps it is uncertainty, not understanding everything, not being the smartest, the best, or the one with the most direct pipeline to God. I know you were kidding, but it got me thinking! Thanks! The student I helped, was the most popular student in just a few weeks. So many were touched by her presence. She tied 1st graders shoes that were untied, or tried to. She held the door open, and she tried to be the adult with them moving them along, teaching them how it's done. And all the kids, girls, would run up to give her hugs. When she had a fall from the monkey bars she would climb back on them to learn to slide down the slanted pole on her one side like the other children, she would practice over and over. And one time when she fell, she fell and sort of face planted in the shredded bark for a softer landing. Well she was so frustrated and did get hurt somewhat with some wood chips in her little mouth, that she started to bawl for the first time and we hugged so long with her tears of frustration flowing out. That was a moment I'll never forget, the moment that I saw such persistence in a little human, that was beyond anything I'd ever seen.
Exiled Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 36 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: What if tomorrow i am given a million dollars? Hypotheticals are fine for intellectual exercises but they often have no basis in reality. There is nothing President Oaks taught that was incorrect. Whether something is "biological" is irrelevant. The natural man is an enemy to God. Jesus Christ changes human nature So, do you think it's a choice? This is anecdotal but I grew up with a few that had certain tendencies and not surprisingly, today they are LGTB. It seems biological and God then must have created them that way.
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 54 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: He did not say that. I’m just wondering what Oaks’ position is on hermaphrodites. Trying to figure it out because his address seemed to convey an eternally binary and fixed view of gender. Iirc, when asked about transgenders a couple of years back, Pres. Oaks stated that was something we hadn't received revelation yet on and therefore he couldn't say much. I would assume the same thing goes for intersexs. I will try and find this. here is the quote: Quote This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that. http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2015/02/13/mormons_and_transgender_elder_dallin_h_oaks_says_the_lds_church_is_open.html Edited October 7, 2018 by Calm 2
Bernard Gui Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 50 minutes ago, Navidad said: Actually I think you bring up a good point. She is seen as having a "defect, " being less than," and being disabled. Yet, she is quite exceptional in a lot of ways. She makes almost everyone smile (I'd bet even you too) when she enters a room. So what is the source, the root of exceptionality? Perhaps it is uncertainty, not understanding everything, not being the smartest, the best, or the one with the most direct pipeline to God. I know you were kidding, but it got me thinking! Thanks! Perhaps it would be better to consider what she would want rather than imposing our wants on her.
Popular Post pogi Posted October 7, 2018 Popular Post Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Navidad said: So can I assume that Saints teach that Down's Syndrome is a defect from which my niece will be "free from" in heaven? I hope not, she is really quite sweet just as she is. I’m sure she is sweet. My son has a rare genetic disorder too, he has albinism. Cutest, sweetest kid you would ever meet. I couldn’t imagine him any other way. As parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles, etc. we naturally love and accept our children just as they are, but what about their wants and desires? I wonder if your niece, given the opportunity to experience what it would be like to not have the genetic disorder, would want for herself. Would she want the ability to drive, have more independence, intellectual capacity, etc., or would she be eternally content with her limitations? My son may never drive either, or see the stars in the heavens as albinism severly affects vision. I wonder if my son was given the opportunity to experience healthy vision if he would want it for himself. It is cute that you think your niece is cute, but our children’s eternal potential will not be limited by what we think is cute. I personally find great hope in the resurrection that all disability and disorder will find ability and celestial order. My son will one day see the beauties of creation with his perfect eyes. Edited October 7, 2018 by pogi 7
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 9 hours ago, rockpond said: It is just more that the Church will have to disavow in the future. I think you have that a little backwards. It's not what the Church will have to disavow; as the world departs further and further from eternal principles, those who cannot abide true doctrine will disavow more and more truth until eventually they disavow the Church. Or do you seriously propose that popularity is what the Church should shoot for?
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 5 hours ago, rodheadlee said: Pray and listen the the Holy Spirit, proceed accordingly. Why do people always bring up the most extreme cases to make a point? it's no different than being born with some other birth defect. There's a legal aphorism, "hard cases make for bad law". That's what is being trotted out with the hermaphrodite question. It reminds me of the questions little children sometimes ask, the ones that start with "What if...?" and as each question is answered, another "What if...?" follows, and then another. The exceptional cases are to be handled on a individual basis. For the more common cases there can be an accepted standard that doesn't need to be precisely aligned with the exceptions.
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Yet so many folks have not noticed this major point. Just listen to the first few minutes. It is a terrible speech really no matter what side you are on imo. I think the only thing that interested me was the Wittgenstein namedrop. Because I saw that name in your profile.
Rain Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Navidad said: So can I assume that Saints teach that Down's Syndrome is a defect from which my niece will be "free from" in heaven? I hope not, she is really quite sweet just as she is. Our doctrine is that innocents, like your niece, do not need baptism because they cannot sin. I wouldn't be surprised if your niece is sweet because her spirit is sweet, not just because she has downs and when she is resurrected would still be sweet. 2
Duncan Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 20 minutes ago, Stargazer said: I think you have that a little backwards. It's not what the Church will have to disavow; as the world departs further and further from eternal principles, those who cannot abide true doctrine will disavow more and more truth until eventually they disavow the Church. Or do you seriously propose that popularity is what the Church should shoot for? you know I like you and appreciate your posts but if the world doesn't know eternal principles you can't depart from them. You can't leave from a place you've never been. 1
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, Stargazer said: There's a legal aphorism, "hard cases make for bad law". That's what is being trotted out with the hermaphrodite question. It reminds me of the questions little children sometimes ask, the ones that start with "What if...?" and as each question is answered, another "What if...?" follows, and then another. The exceptional cases are to be handled on a individual basis. For the more common cases there can be an accepted standard that doesn't need to be precisely aligned with the exceptions. For me it is more that looking to the edges helps locate the line of what we know and what we don't know. I am quite comfortable with trying to be obedient to God's commandments even when we haven't been given revelation about the why's and how's as I think the whole process of life comes down to learning to trust God, but I do prefer recognizing when we don't know something rather than assuming we have that knowledge. 1
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 3 hours ago, Navidad said: Thanks for the post. My first job in public education was as a school bus driver, my second was as an intern school psychologist working with special children. That was 45 years ago. I will never forget them. However, I really would like an answer to my question - does the Latter-day Saint Church teach that Down Syndrome is a defect from which people will be freed in the celestial kingdom? I have never thought about that before. I kind of hope that isn't true. I guess I have always thought that there would be a special place for such folks, complete with their physical difference. So, do we hope that physicist Steven Hawking will be resurrected with ALS? Or that a thalidomide child gets resurrected in the same armless condition as she had when she was born? Or that a person born blind stays blind? How about Ted Bundy getting resurrected with his psychopathy intact? I am quite cute and friendly, even with my Attention Deficit Disorder. Must I put up with it for eternity, just because I manage to work around it well enough to get by, or that someone found it inspirational that I persevered in spite of my hindrance? Every single human being born into mortality has literally infinite potential. And some of us want those with inborn limitations to retain those limitations because we found them cute? Have we forgotten the purpose behind those limitations? Those with limitations are there to help other to learn to be compassionate, and/or to be tests for us. Those limitations are not there to entertain the rest of us! I have a brother in law with Downs syndrome. He is a nice gentle soul, but he is a Son of God, and he has an eternal destiny that seems not to require him to be tested as we others are -- and the thought of him being resurrected with Downs syndrome is quite repugnant to me. 1
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 11 minutes ago, Duncan said: you know I like you and appreciate your posts but if the world doesn't know eternal principles you can't depart from them. You can't leave from a place you've never been. I'm not talking about the Word of Wisdom and wearing white shirts to church. I'm talking about family. The world knows darned good and well that the creation of children requires a man and a woman, and that the raising of children requires parents who feed and nurture. And yet we have some in our western culture who teach the contrary. And most cultures on earth seems to know very well that things like theft, adultery and murder are wrong. Those are eternal principles, too. 1
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 19 minutes ago, Calm said: For me it is more that looking to the edges helps locate the line of what we know and what we don't know. I am quite comfortable with trying to be obedient to God's commandments even when we haven't been given revelation about the why's and how's as I think the whole process of life comes down to learning to trust God, but I do prefer recognizing when we don't know something rather than assuming we have that knowledge. I agree. But we sometimes seem to be taking the solution to edge cases as applicable to the general case. For example, children born intersex are edge cases, and must be dealt with as exceptions. Perhaps such children must be allowed to come to maturity before we can determine which gender they actually are -- and if their case is a matter of serious sex gene mixup that we can't determine an answer, perhaps we must let the person choose which is most comfortable for them. But now, because we don't quite know how to handle some of those edge cases, some very odd people are now convinced that all children must be allowed to choose their own gender. I take it you've not heard of this?
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 (edited) Navidad, My opinion....all of our current physical differences---whether they are viewed by us as defects or characteristics----will contribute to what we will become through an eternity of eternal progression, but if we were to view ourselves a trillion years from now with our current mortal understanding instead of seeing these differences as part of the building blocks of our Selves, we would think they were absent so overwhelmed we would be by the distance we have traveled in development. Probably less like baby to adult and more like ant to human....we are talking eternity after all, not just a hundred years or a thousand or even a million...but millions of millions of millions of millions years filled with opportunities to grow. How in the world could we fill those years with experiences at the side of God and all his creations and not be changed in massive ways beyond our current conception? Just because we love our children as infants, does that mean we cannot take joy in them as youth and adults or is it a thrill seeing what they become while still treasuring in our hearts what they were? I think if we as immortal beings are the least like God in his knowledge of us, we will view each other in the entirety of who we are, which will include our experiences, which are as much a part of us as our muscles and bones. We won't just be able to treasure our memories, but in some fashion we will be able to be there. All things are before God in his wisdom, after all. So will the godly qualities of your niece with Down's syndrome be removed? No, imo, as we only need to be freed from that which keeps us from God, but they will be added upon as much as she desires so that those who are eternal with God will see the child and woman she is now and all else she desires to become. Edited October 7, 2018 by Calm 1
Tacenda Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Listening to it now, very sad. I know of a family in a ward years ago, that has two gay children, a son and a daughter. She shared a video of what that was like and how she first felt about it. Her daughter married another woman, and she posted pics of this some time ago, and celebrated like she would have if her daughter had married a man. She said one of them, can't remember which, came out first right before her husband was put in as bishop. She said that at first she was devastated, my word, but that she came to realize she needed to love them fully no matter what. Love them and accept them. I wonder now how she feels about Oaks statements about eternal life, and how marriage is only between a man and woman, and only they will have eternity together and his comment about repenting or something like that, and so on and so on. IMO, I think Oaks will be another Mark E. Peterson, as someone on another board has said. Or remembered for getting it wrong. God made them that way, yes, I'll fully say this. Or shout it out. Or like this woman puts on her pumpkins she sells, Love Louder...and donates the entire proceeds of this large pumpkin field to the Encircle foundation. She's a true believer as well, but I don't know how she does it after listening to such a disheartening message as his was.
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 13 minutes ago, Stargazer said: I take it you've not heard of this? You need to try a little harder at being condescending. It's just not working for me yet.
mfbukowski Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 41 minutes ago, Stargazer said: I think the only thing that interested me was the Wittgenstein namedrop. Because I saw that name in your profile. Yeah, but W later repudiated and condemned what was quoted, and the Ted guy didn't even seem to know that. W himself refuted the Tractatus later in his life THAT is the W I love ! 1
Stargazer Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 Just now, Calm said: You need to try a little harder at being condescending. It's just not working for me yet. Wasn't trying to be condescending. There seem to be people who have not heard about this "choose your own gender" rage that is so trendy at the moment. Not everyone is conversant with all the trends. I am certainly in that number. Let me rephrase: "Have you heard about this? I genuinely don't know."
Tacenda Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 32 minutes ago, Stargazer said: So, do we hope that physicist Steven Hawking will be resurrected with ALS? Or that a thalidomide child gets resurrected in the same armless condition as she had when she was born? Or that a person born blind stays blind? How about Ted Bundy getting resurrected with his psychopathy intact? I am quite cute and friendly, even with my Attention Deficit Disorder. Must I put up with it for eternity, just because I manage to work around it well enough to get by, or that someone found it inspirational that I persevered in spite of my hindrance? Every single human being born into mortality has literally infinite potential. And some of us want those with inborn limitations to retain those limitations because we found them cute? Have we forgotten the purpose behind those limitations? Those with limitations are there to help other to learn to be compassionate, and/or to be tests for us. Those limitations are not there to entertain the rest of us! I have a brother in law with Downs syndrome. He is a nice gentle soul, but he is a Son of God, and he has an eternal destiny that seems not to require him to be tested as we others are -- and the thought of him being resurrected with Downs syndrome is quite repugnant to me. To the bold, not me! And I believe they should be allowed to be baptized just like everyone else. I guess it took me getting to know someone with it to have come to this conclusion. I think just as with a gay person, that they will stay the same in the hereafter as well. And they can have a family, or even without what is the big deal? Oh, yeah, exaltation and being able to procreate after this life, what so no single people can be with them? How boring will that be?
Tacenda Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Wasn't trying to be condescending. There seem to be people who have not heard about this "choose your own gender" rage that is so trendy at the moment. Not everyone is conversant with all the trends. I am certainly in that number. Let me rephrase: "Have you heard about this? I genuinely don't know." Choose your own gender is a much more deeper thing than the latest fad. Maybe it takes one to know one. Maybe you should talk to someone that feels as if they were born the wrong sex their whole lives, to understand. And that sometimes people have more complications than we know during their development.
Calm Posted October 7, 2018 Posted October 7, 2018 10 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Wasn't trying to be condescending. There seem to be people who have not heard about this "choose your own gender" rage that is so trendy at the moment. Not everyone is conversant with all the trends. I am certainly in that number. Let me rephrase: "Have you heard about this? I genuinely don't know." Yes, I have.
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